QUESTION pagecounts

[Arthur Entlich]

I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

Let's look at the WHOLE posting, shall we?



Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
non-resettable.

For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
one.

-- Bob Eager begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!


==============
See how you try to refute the ease in "faking" or resetting page count?
See how you state "Not true on the average laser printer; it's
supposed to be non-resettable."

You and the folks in Orwell's 1984 from the Ministry of Truth would get
along well. Too bad posts leave a history behind.

This isn't a big issue, but it really annoys me when someone, even after
being caught giving out misleading information tries to defend
themselves through selective quoting.

It really would have been much easier (and more correct) to just admit
you made an error, especially after admonishing someone else who
actually pretty much had it correct.

Art

 

[Bob Eager]

I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

 

[zakezuke]

Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and
"that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
the NVRAM chip... and either taking it to a machine that can reprogram
the NVRAM or taking the time cutting the battery, reconnecting the
trace and popping it back in the printer so to convenience the printer
the NVRAM needs to be reset and ask for values to put in it. Having to
retrofit batteries on NVRAM chips in a pinch I can tell you for a fact
dealing with these things are a huge pain in the tookus. I'm sure this
is in total varanace of any offical procedure, but what can you do that
doesn't involve ordering parts and waiting.

I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry. Perhaps
my lack of comprehension is astounding as well... but i'm seeing the LJ
4 as being just old enough for the batteries on the NVRAM chips to
start to fail.

 

[Bob Eager]

His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and

Note the word "supposed". I know it's resettable, you know it's
resettable, but the user isn't *supposed* to do it. With the number of
bootleg copies of the service manual around, it's common knowledge how
to do it, and it's pointless trying to keep it a secret!

"that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
the NVRAM chip

No, just that if the engineer does a board change, the number in the new
board is set to that in the old one. A simple task.

I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry.

Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good
approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
toner cartridge, for example.

I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

 

[Alan]

Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?

Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
just pressing several keys on the control panel.

 

[Bob Eager]

Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
just pressing several keys on the control panel.

Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

 

[zakezuke]

Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good

approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
toner cartridge, for example.

I don't honestly know why some rebuilt printers are reset to zero, only
that i've met many, as well as some shops who reset the page count to
make life easier for them doing maintance... as in reset to zero as
soon as the part with the longest duty cycle is replaced. I also know
that many go through PC recycling... as in they are dropped off without
their histories. I gotta say under that scenero... a very common
one... there is no way to establish the history, not to speak of users
who are not so attentive as your self. Rule of thumb... always bet on
lazy.

I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.
The easy way to deal with failed batteries on NVRAM is to get another
chip. The hard way is to scrape away with an exacto knife and trace
out where the battery meets the chip and find the pads that attach to
the dram. You go the hard way if the equipment in question won't
operate without valid data in the NVRAM and can't do without it for a
mailorder part. I've never seen the procedure in any service manual
but I have met many batteries attached to the back of NVRAM chips with
velcro and thought "cool, won't have to touch this till 2150". While I
don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years. You can't
really change the battery, you can only hope to disconnect the old one
and jerry-rig on a new one. Unless there are other forms of NV that
i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

I've only had to swap out a board for my stylewriter II NT once... and
as I disabled the "print page count on startup" I had no clue what the
pagecount was. Come to think about it... I had no idea how to set the
pagecount. Not that I couldn't find out... I had no idea what the
pagecount was. When I gave away the printer... the next chap was
interested in the page count, but I had to say no idea... blew a board,
diabled hard copy upon startup. They were more interested in my
knowelege of obscure propriority apple commands to do this than the
pagecount, either that or testing my honesty... either way what could I
do? This is not uncommon for anyone who needed a main board
replacement. Can't get the page count board broken.

 

[Bob Eager]

I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.

I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

While I
don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years.

I've found 12887s tend to fail after about 10 years, but it's certainly
in that ball park for most of them, I guess.

Unless there are other forms of NV that
i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

 

[zakezuke]

Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of

Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
mechanics repair and maintain. I know there are exceptions... like an
engineer on a train (engine operator), custodial engineers, power plant
operators and engineers (engine operator). I would never call a
person who's only qualifications in printers is reading the service
manual an engineer. Service manuals are far too limited and don't
really list anything that requires specalized knowledge but rather list
button presses and large serviceable parts that can be replaced.
Printer techs don't typicaly don't even have repair manuals.

Resetting the pagecount doesn't require a degree or knowelege of
electronic nor mechanical engineering, nor a university education.
They hardly require specalized knowelge of printers. They are for
printer technicians so someone not very well paid could make a
judgement whether to replace a part or send to the factory.

 

[zakezuke]

I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the

DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.
I don't know of any PS/2s still in service except a few oddball ones
that have 3270 terminal adapters onboard. If this data is on the
NVRAM, well lots of luck to them looking for the reference disk or
whatever IBM called the associated data file required to configure MCA
cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
data as well.

Frankly I know jack about the PS/2 even though i'm quoted on somesite
as having contibuted some useful information on a website somewhere....
hell if I know anything useful about the PS/2.

The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

Good thing I didn't say it used NVRAM then i'd feel foolish. But on
the other hand I know for a fact that the HP LJ II error code 68 "NVRAM
ERROR". But I honestly don't know how the canon sx based printers were
different... as in I wouldn't know if the NVram that a HP LJ II would
complain about was on the main system board or part of the print
engine.

Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.
The fact that the page printed on start up had a big bold friendly
postscript P on it along with lots of data like the printers name, in
my case Oscar and the page count lead me to believe that this was
system board specific information. But given I've never read a service
manual for these printers, nor a parts manual nor a repair manual I
have no idea where the NVram was on the LJ II nor if the LW NT would
have the same thing.

I can say with all honesty I have no idea what method the LW NT used to
keep track of it's page count.

But needless to say even if I didn't loose this information... the
NVRAM in a old printers may have dead batteries, and no possible way to
get a real page count. A very real situation even if I have no idea
where this data was stored on a LW NT. A legit reason for the counter
to be wrong are cases there the system board failed and the person
replacing it has no clue what the pagecount is.

 

[Bob Eager]

Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

Not in the UK, in my experience. There's 'degree' (BA, BSc, BEng) and
there's 'higher degree' (MSc, MA, MEng, Ph.D, DPhil). But then I'm
probably picky because I'm in the education area! So, just mentioned for
interest!

Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
mechanics repair and maintain.

I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately the word is often used for
'technician' (e.g. by HP themselves) and I used that definition (I
should not have). The term 'engineer' is much misused, and real
engineers do not enjoy the status that they should.

(I speak as a qualified engineer!)

 

[Bob Eager]

Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.

The NVRAM was for the clock (year digits) and also for the MCA
configuration data. Stored in NVRAM in all but the later models (in fact
I think it was in NVRAM even then).

cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
data as well.

It's all still on FTP, but without an index. There are plenrty of
mirrors though.

Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.

No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that
contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
already - to save a 'cycle'.

Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
hence the EEPROM. Dunno.

 

[zakezuke]

No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that

contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
already - to save a 'cycle'.

Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
hence the EEPROM. Dunno.

Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.

 

[zakezuke]

additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
battery backed up ram or nvram.

 

[Bob Eager]

additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
battery backed up ram or nvram.

Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

 

[Bob Eager]

Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.

So would I.

Meanwhile, I did find a copy of the IInt manual. Here's an extract (from
page 41):

"Note: Because the LaserWriter IInt component that registers the options
can wear out with excessive use (several thousand changes), change the
options only when necessary."

Nothing about NVRAM but I'm sure there must have been something else.
Note that this is on the IInt; the IIntx didn't have the EEPROM
(probably it was straight battery backed NVRAM) because the manual says
that it didn't have the same restriction.

 

[zakezuke]

Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

You seemed very clear on the subject when you said

"The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"

An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
non-volitile memory. The LJ II used NVRAM to store info like
pagecounts. It could be this data was stored as part of the Canon SX
engine seperate from the system board. But that doesn't take into
account data as part of the appletalk protocal, which typicaly used
NVram. I'd wager a battery was required, but a service manual which
tends to speak to the lowest common denominator, if it said "no battery
is required" might mean "no external battery replacement is nessicary
as the lifespand on the NVram is 10+ years".

But since you have a manual... I would suspect that if you would look
up the fuction of dipswitch one it would tell you want it resets.

I'm not going to say what the LW NT used because I don't have any idea.
I know it kept track of pagecounts and being appletalk stored the last
useable address two things that would be annoying to put in an EEprom.
There was also trivial little things like baud rate for the serial
ports, printer name, basic printer settings which were not changed all
that offen that could have been stored in an EEprom I imagine... but
really it's a total mystery to me why being up EEproms when talking
about pagecounts. Seems odd and I have no idea what your point was.

 

[Bob Eager]

You seemed very clear on the subject when you said

"The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"

An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
non-volitile memory.

No, I was merely saying that it appeared to have *both*.

 

[me]

But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
laser printers don't have a counter.

Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
case of emergencies.

 

[Tony]

Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
case of emergencies.

Timothy
Yes really.... several older OKI and Brother lasers do not count pages. So far
as I know all modern lasers do keep count.
Tony