Question about PCI-e Power Connector

F

Fidelis K

My Intel Bad Axe motherboard has an onboard 12v 1x4 PCI-e power connector,
which powers PCI-e cards. I, of course, connected a power cable to it. Now,
my X1900GT card has a 2x3 PCI-e power connector. Should I also connect a
power cable to it???
 
J

John Doe

Fidelis K said:
My Intel Bad Axe motherboard has an onboard 12v 1x4 PCI-e power
connector, which powers PCI-e cards. I, of course, connected a
power cable to it. Now, my X1900GT card has a 2x3 PCI-e power
connector. Should I also connect a power cable to it???

I cannot imagine any interference between the two.

I would unless it were explicitly warned against in my owner's
manuals. In my opinion, that's where you should seek guidance.
 
P

Paul

John said:
I cannot imagine any interference between the two.

I would unless it were explicitly warned against in my owner's
manuals. In my opinion, that's where you should seek guidance.

In the manual:

"If high power (75 W or greater) add-in cards are installed in
either or both the Secondary PCI Express x16 (electrical x8)
and the PCI Express x16 (electrical x4) bus add-in card
connectors, the Auxiliary PCI Express graphics power connector
must be used. Failure to do so may cause damage to the board
and the add-in cards."

First of all, to clarify the Intel statement, 75W happens to
be the max theoretical power available on a PCI Express slot.
That power number includes both 3.3V and 12V consumption.
Apparently, on video cards, little to no 3.3V is used, as
all the power is converted via switching converters, from
the 12V rail. The PCI Express slot has 5 pins rated at 1 amp
each, for a total of 12V @ 5A or 60W. Video card manufacturers
content themselves with drawing 4A from those pins, as a max.
The highest card I've read about draws 4.35A measured.

If you use only one video card (say a 6600GT), that would draw
4 amps from the video slot. Lesser cards (say a 6200 or something),
would draw less than 4 amps. For a single card installed in the
system, you have little to worry about. (12V * 4A = 48 watts).

If you plug two cards, in say a Crossfire configuration, then
you could be drawing 8 amps from the video card slot(s). That
would be considered a "high power" situation.

Now, the thing is, if you installed a 24 pin main power
connector, that has two 12V wires, and since each has a
capacity to carry 6 amps, the main connector is good for
12 amps. In theory, two video cards plus a few fan headers,
can be handled by a 24 pin power connector. The reason
this is possible, is the video card slot has a limit as
to how much current can be drawn through the slots pins.
And that is why video cards are "split in half". The 2x3
connector on the end is used, if the video card is going
to need more than about 4 amps.

So where does that leave you ? If you plugged in a 24 pin
main power connector, then in theory there is enough
power for two video cards. You plug in the 1x4 as an
aid to the distribution of the power, and by using the
extra connector, there is less resistance. On some
motherboards, the path is shorter, from the 1x4 Molex
on the motherboard, to the video slots.

One thing to be careful of, with all these power connectors,
is that they all draw power from the same rail. For example,
there have been power supplies, that drive the 1x4 Molex
connector with a different rail than the main 24 pin
connector. The 12V pins then come from different outputs.
It is not a good idea to connect independent rails
together (loop currents can flow). Some supplies
will actually shut off if they detect this. Other
supplies might not be so smart. This is generally
only a concern with quad rail supplies, as the one
three rail supply I know of (PCP&C), powers everything
off 12V3. So right now the quads are the one to watch.
And on a dual supply, 12V2 powers the processor, while
12V1 powers the 24 pin main connector and the Molex
connectors. With a dual supply (12V1/12V2) you are
safe to plug in the 1x4 motherboard connector in
all cases.

This is a rough picture of an SLI/Crossfire motherboard.

12V2 12V2 -----------+-----------> Vcore, for processor
2x2 12V2 -----------+
square GND
GND


24 pin 12V1 -----------+-----------> Video card slots,
main 12V1 -----------+ PCI Express x1 slots,
connector | fan headers
|
1x4 12V1 -----------+ (X16 Video slot powers
mobo half of the card)
plug

2x3 12V3 -----------+------------> Video card Aux conn,
PCI 12V3 -----------+ powers other half
Express 12V3 -----------+ of the card

The two halves of the video card are independent of one
another, for the sake of this wiring diagram. The 2x3
PCI Express connector could also be wired to 12V1 (on
a dual rail supply), instead of the 12V3 I jotted on the
diagram above. Since the 2x3 connector is electrically
independent at the video card, it really doesn't matter
where the PCI Express 2x3 comes from anyway. But notice
that the 1x4 Molex connector had better come from
the same source as the 24 pin main connector (and
definitely does on a dual rail supply).

The 2x2 versus 2x4 processor connector is tricky. Some
desktop boards use the same rail on all four 12V pins of
the 2x4. The BadAxe seems to split the connector in two.
Be real careful in selecting a supply, _if_ plugging in
a 2x4 connector, that the supply matches the Intel
philosophy (to use the 2x4, you need a triple rail or
quad rail supply). Plugging a 2x2 is infinitely safer,
and in the case of Core 2 Duo processors, is all you need
anyway. The safest solution is to use the more commonly
available 2x2 for the processor power. I show the
use of the 2x2 in the above diagram (mainly because
I don't know what the hell Intel does with dual rails
feeding a single processor slot).

The only evidence of how video card power is split
within the card, is this article. This article was
discussing the merits of using an independent power
supply, as a source of video card power.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/fsp-vga-power_6.html

HTH,
Paul
 
J

John Doe

Paul said:
In the manual:

"If high power (75 W or greater) add-in cards are installed in
either or both the Secondary PCI Express x16 (electrical x8)
and the PCI Express x16 (electrical x4) bus add-in card
connectors, the Auxiliary PCI Express graphics power connector
must be used. Failure to do so may cause damage to the board
and the add-in cards."

First of all, to clarify the Intel statement, 75W happens to
be the max theoretical power available on a PCI Express slot.
That power number includes both 3.3V and 12V consumption.
Apparently, on video cards, little to no 3.3V is used, as
all the power is converted via switching converters, from
the 12V rail. The PCI Express slot has 5 pins rated at 1 amp
each, for a total of 12V 5A or 60W. Video card manufacturers
content themselves with drawing 4A from those pins, as a max.
The highest card I've read about draws 4.35A measured.

If you use only one video card (say a 6600GT), that would draw
4 amps from the video slot. Lesser cards (say a 6200 or
something), would draw less than 4 amps. For a single card
installed in the system, you have little to worry about. (12V * 4A
= 48 watts).

< S N I P >

Apparently all the guy needs to know is whether it's OK to use
both connectors.

Assuming that's the question you are addressing, Paul,
a summary might be useful.






HTH,
Paul


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From: Paul <nospam needed.com>
Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt
Subject: Re: Question about PCI-e Power Connector
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:48:39 -0500
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J

johns

Can you "ohm out" these rails to ensure they are
the same? I can't imagine the stupidity of 2 isolated
independent 12v rails in the same machine. In wiring
up data acquisition systems, I've found this business
of even a single power supply voltage trying to return
to ground over dozens of minute connections to be
tricky.

johns
 
F

Fidelis K

John Doe said:
Apparently all the guy needs to know is whether it's OK to use
both connectors.

Assuming that's the question you are addressing, Paul,
a summary might be useful.

Yeah, Paul's naswer must be the most detailed answer ever posted on this NG.
But, not being an expert on PCs, I just don't understand what it really
means:) According to reviews, the Radeon x1900 series cards can consume up
to 105 W, so I just use both connectors and there seems no issue whatsoever.
 
J

John Doe

Fidelis K said:
I just use both connectors and there seems no issue whatsoever.

If there were, it would probably show up immediately, and again you
would see warnings in the owner's manuals. I would use both.

Anyway, sounds like fun.
 

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