[PL] PL2006 Ware Issues

[Susan Bugher]

September 15 -October 14, 2005 - Candidate program description submittals. Category and ware discussion.
October 15 - October 31, 2005 - Program nominations, seconds and program discussion.
November 1 - November 7, 2005 Voting period
November 8, 2005 - Vote Results Posted
November 9, 2005 - Preliminary Pricelessware List Posted
November 9 - November 15, 2005 - Final Selection Discussion
November 16, 2005 - Final Pricelessware List Posted

Please post ware issues in this thread. Nominated and seconded programs that have ware issues will
placed on the Ware Ballot to determine if the program's ware description is acceptable to newsgroup
participants. For more information see:

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2006/2006PL-Procedures.php

Susan
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[Susan Bugher]

Is IrfanView Adware?

Susan
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[Demetris]

Is IrfanView Adware?

No.

The relevant part from the first dialog window during installation
(current version, 3.97):

eBay option (Support IrfanView):
[ ] Create eBay shortcuts on Desktop and IE toolbar
[ ] Install eBay Toolbar for IrfanView

*Both are unchecked* in 3.97 (they were checked when first introduced in
v. 3.92).

In the zip no-install download only the second option exists. It is off
by default. It can be turned on via Options > Properties > Misc. 3.

Even if both options are on, I think there is no issue of adware.

HOWEVER, there MAY be an issue of spyware when any of these options is
turned on: the queries to eBay are not direct but go through the site of
webtip media GmbH (http://www.webtip.ch/). I don't know if webtip set
any cookies (or what kind of cookies they set), and what they do with
the data they collect by the redirections. (Only webtip themselves can
know that.)

In a short statement on their site they claim that they collect only
aggregate data, not individual information, and that they do not give
any data to third parties. Click on Datenschutz on the link provided above.

Interestingly, there was an outcry last November when it came out that
German localizations of Firefox did not send eBay queries directly to
eBay, but redirected them via the same service, webtip. (That's why the
webtip statement mentions Firefox). This was changed quickly back to
direct queries.

Firefox: eBay-Suche mit Umleitung:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/53308

Firefox.de in adware rumpus:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/23/firefox_adware_rumpus/

Greetings,
Demetris

 

[Peter Seiler]

Susan Bugher - 21.09.2005 18:17 :

Is IrfanView Adware?

no

 

[MLC]

mercoledì 21 settembre 2005 Susan Bugher ha scritto:

Is IrfanView Adware?

no

 

[Aaron]

Is IrfanView Adware?

No.

The relevant part from the first dialog window during installation
(current version, 3.97):

eBay option (Support IrfanView):
[ ] Create eBay shortcuts on Desktop and IE toolbar
[ ] Install eBay Toolbar for IrfanView

*Both are unchecked* in 3.97 (they were checked when first introduced
in v. 3.92).

In the zip no-install download only the second option exists. It is
off by default. It can be turned on via Options > Properties > Misc.
3.

Even if both options are on, I think there is no issue of adware.

HOWEVER, there MAY be an issue of spyware when any of these options is
turned on: the queries to eBay are not direct but go through the site
of webtip media GmbH (http://www.webtip.ch/). I don't know if webtip
set any cookies (or what kind of cookies they set), and what they do
with the data they collect by the redirections. (Only webtip
themselves can know that.)

This brings up the question of adware bundled with other software.
Eg Maxthon is(used to be?) bundled with UCMore. You can opt out of
course.

Interestingly, there was an outcry last November when it came out that
German localizations of Firefox did not send eBay queries directly to
eBay, but redirected them via the same service, webtip. (That's why
the webtip statement mentions Firefox). This was changed quickly back
to direct queries.

Firefox: eBay-Suche mit Umleitung:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/53308

Firefox.de in adware rumpus:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/23/firefox_adware_rumpus/

Actually, Opera 8.5 (which is now freeware without ads)has some of the
same issues.

By default,ebay go goes another third party aggregator - qksrv.net
instead of going direct. You have to alter search.ini to clean it.

 

[miskairal]

OEViewer
I emailed the author of OE Viewer and got no reply so far so downloaded
and tried version 2.0. Like Susan said, the EULA says it is free but you
pay for the source however in version 2.0 you cannont view attachments.
In version 1.2 you can.
http://www.mitec.cz/

How should I submit this? The author still makes version 1.2 readily
available at his site but there is no mention that version 2.0 is
crippled. Can a programme be submitted as "Last fully functioning
freeware version"?
http://www.mitec.cz/oe.htm

dBpowerAMP
Much the same as above except from what I can make out the latest
version 11.5 is fully payware
http://www.dbpoweramp.com/dmc.htm

The 2005 description gives a download link for version 10 that still works.
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2005/PL2005MULTIMEDIA.php

Voting on the version resulted in 1 vote for v 10, 1 vote for both
versions and what appears to be 1 vote for v 11

Please can someone tell me how these 2 good programmes can be submitted.

 

[Mel]

Voting on the version resulted in 1 vote for v 10, 1 vote for both
versions and what appears to be 1 vote for v 11

Their were two votes for both!

 

[Susan Bugher]

miskairal wrote:

in the wrong thread. . .

Please can someone tell me how these 2 good programmes can be submitted.

The apps have *been* submitted. I've been waiting for you to get bacl to me on OE Reader (was MiTeC DBX Viewer). Per the info you just posted I'll list v 1.2 (the last uncrippled version).

I'd like to see more response about which version of dBpowerAMP Music Converter (dMC) the group prefers. I had planned to post a follow-up in that thread later. Feel free to do it now - in this thread please:

Subject: [PL] PL2006 - dBpowerAMP Music Converter (dMC) version?
From: Susan Bugher <[email protected]>
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:35:07 -0400

Susan
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[miskairal]

Their were two votes for both!

Yep, I voted for both b/c I thought 11.5 was just crippled by the MP3
trial but otherwise functional and therefore people could chose for
themselves which version was of use to them. I cancelled the post, well
I thought I did but I'm having a lot of trouble finding anything in the
group b/c I formatted my pc and reinstalled Thunderbird and it won't
thread the posts older than the install date properly. Same for message
rules. I've never had this happen before and am really wondering if
Thunderbird is for me.

I have v10 installed and have only seen 11.5 in action on a friend's pc
and she told me it was free. The website does not mention it being
payware until you go to the registration page and when you are on a slow
dialup you tend to get a bit slack on clicking on links and there are a
lot of programmes that just require free registration so I assumed it
was something to do with that. I have learnt that I have to delve even
deeper though when putting forward submittals here. Will probably have
to find a game to play while waiting for all the pages to open.

Sorry

 

[Mel]

Yep, I voted for both b/c I thought 11.5 was just crippled by the MP3
trial but otherwise functional and therefore people could chose for
themselves which version was of use to them. I cancelled the post, well
I thought I did but I'm having a lot of trouble finding anything in the
group b/c I formatted my pc and reinstalled Thunderbird and it won't
thread the posts older than the install date properly. Same for message
rules. I've never had this happen before and am really wondering if
Thunderbird is for me.

I have v10 installed and have only seen 11.5 in action on a friend's pc
and she told me it was free. The website does not mention it being
payware until you go to the registration page and when you are on a slow
dialup you tend to get a bit slack on clicking on links and there are a
lot of programmes that just require free registration so I assumed it
was something to do with that. I have learnt that I have to delve even
deeper though when putting forward submittals here. Will probably have
to find a game to play while waiting for all the pages to open.

Looks like it has gone $ware, so Last Freeeware Version is?

dBpowerAmp Music Converter 11.5

Requirements: Windows 95/98/Me/NT/2000/XP
Publisher: Illustrate
Limitations: 30-day trial
Date added: September 29, 2005
File size: 2.07MB
License: Free to try: $14.00 to buy

http://www.download.com/dBpowerAmp-Music-Converter/3000-2140_4-10440846.html?tag=lst-0-1

 

[Susan Bugher]

Is IrfanView Adware?

55 people voted for IrfanView in the PL2005 selection process.

48 people voted in the Adware poll that was taken in August 2005. (33 of
those people chose "No, absolutely not!")

Only *3* people have expressed an opinion on "Is IrfanView Adware?"

My tentative conclusion is that the silent majority's answer is YES -
else why the silence? Adware is not allowed on the Pricelessware List.
Are there objections to my withdrawing this program?

Susan
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[miskairal]

55 people voted for IrfanView in the PL2005 selection process.

48 people voted in the Adware poll that was taken in August 2005. (33 of
those people chose "No, absolutely not!")

Only *3* people have expressed an opinion on "Is IrfanView Adware?"

My tentative conclusion is that the silent majority's answer is YES -
else why the silence? Adware is not allowed on the Pricelessware List.
Are there objections to my withdrawing this program?

Susan

I believe that the majority might agree with the current votes ie. No it
is not Adaware, or they'd be jumping up and down replying. I meant to
come back to this when I thought about is some more but forgot - Sorry.

I think that if the default installation does not install adware then it
should be allowed.

 

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Is IrfanView Adware?

[...]
Only *3* people have expressed an opinion on "Is IrfanView Adware?"

My tentative conclusion is that the silent majority's answer is YES -
else why the silence? Adware is not allowed on the Pricelessware List.
Are there objections to my withdrawing this program?

Hallo Susan,

ISTM, I was the one first expressing the opinion IrfanView to be some
kind of Adware this year:

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

And I wrote myself, I regard IrfanView an 'exception' compared with
other Adware. Although I'm not happy with the bundling of the eBay
search bar, I'm somewhat content with the current standard option
<no install>. It shows respect to the average user and can be seen
as some kind of additional service for other users which might want
to use it. <Yikes!>

Therefore, the search bar isn't a pure advertising element, but in
fact (in my case *really* unwanted!) additional free functionality.
That lowers my liking of IrfanView *a bit*. But surely *not* enough
to not think it priceless!

Maybe 'Bundleware' would be a better term for IrfanView than 'Adware'.
But we don't have that in the glossary, yet. And above all: that
term is often used the other way - a program 'bundled *to* another'.

Although only few people expressed their opinions in this thread,
I think most would be sincerely disappointed, if IrfanView was
removed from the PW voting.

To make a long story short: Keep IrfanView on the list.

BeAr

 

[Mike Bourke]

I don't use it, so I have not expressed an opinion - I use ACDSee32.(from a
magazine cover disk) instead because it's more intuitive for me.

Silence will more often indicate a lack of opinion or a case of indecision
than an unstated opinion either way.

Mike

 

[Steven Burn]

And I wrote myself, I regard IrfanView an 'exception' compared with
other Adware. Although I'm not happy with the bundling of the eBay
search bar, I'm somewhat content with the current standard option
<no install>. It shows respect to the average user and can be seen
as some kind of additional service for other users which might want
to use it. <Yikes!>

Therefore, the search bar isn't a pure advertising element, but in
fact (in my case *really* unwanted!) additional free functionality.

</snip>

Does this mean that the likes of the Accoona toolbar should also be
considered for PL? .... I certainly hope not.

FYI for those that have not heard of it .......

http://research.sunbelt-software.com/threat_display.cfm?name=Accoona.Toolbar
&threatid=41590

That lowers my liking of IrfanView *a bit*. But surely *not* enough
to not think it priceless!

Maybe 'Bundleware' would be a better term for IrfanView than 'Adware'.
But we don't have that in the glossary, yet. And above all: that
term is often used the other way - a program 'bundled *to* another'.

</snip>

This then opens the way for the many thousands of programs that bundle
malware (using the logic I'm reading here, the malware cannot be considered
as pure advertising because it provides "additional free
service"/"functionality").

Irrespective of what we think of Irfanview, there has to be a stop point -
no more excuses for it's being there, no more "but you can just untick the
box to stop it being installed", the motives for it's being included are
purely financial, they could not care one bit whether or not we (do/do not
want it) and/or (do/do not find it useful).

Although only few people expressed their opinions in this thread,
I think most would be sincerely disappointed, if IrfanView was
removed from the PW voting.

To make a long story short: Keep IrfanView on the list.

I vote for taking it off..... but thats just me (adware is adware,
regardless of how it's cut)

--
Regards

Steven Burn
Ur I.T. Mate Group
www.it-mate.co.uk

Keeping it FREE!

 

[Susan Bugher]

ISTM, I was the one first expressing the opinion IrfanView to be some
kind of Adware this year:

Message-ID: <[email protected]>

And I wrote myself, I regard IrfanView an 'exception' compared with
other Adware. Although I'm not happy with the bundling of the eBay
search bar, I'm somewhat content with the current standard option
<no install>. It shows respect to the average user and can be seen
as some kind of additional service for other users which might want
to use it. <Yikes!>

Therefore, the search bar isn't a pure advertising element, but in
fact (in my case *really* unwanted!) additional free functionality.
That lowers my liking of IrfanView *a bit*. But surely *not* enough
to not think it priceless!

Maybe 'Bundleware' would be a better term for IrfanView than 'Adware'.
But we don't have that in the glossary, yet. And above all: that
term is often used the other way - a program 'bundled *to* another'.

Although only few people expressed their opinions in this thread,
I think most would be sincerely disappointed, if IrfanView was
removed from the PW voting.

To make a long story short: Keep IrfanView on the list.

I don't know if IrfanView belongs on the Pricelessware List or not. ISTM
there are issues that need serious discussion.

Isn't the Pricelessware List ACF's showcase of the very best Freeware
and near Freeware. Shouldn't we be discussing IrfanView in that light?
IOW - does it still represent the Freeware ideal?

Isn't the situation with IrfanView somewhat the opposite of the
situation with Opera - until it's recent conversion to Freeware it was
regarded by most as OT - this year it has been proposed for the PL. IMO
this is not a question about the quality of the program. . .

I recently proposed changing the wording of the Pricelessware slogan
from Freeware to free software. Bjorn S. had this to say:

<q>
Subject: Re: [PL] Pricelessware slogan
From: Bjorn Simonsen <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:38:40 +0200

Freeware is the normative ideal, a list of the "best of the best" our
primary goal, what we aim for. Yes, some exceptions to the rule have
been allowed in, other free software, not truly freeware. Free
Software is thus descriptive correct. Or in other words - a more
accurate description. But I don't think we should loose sight of
the normative side of it, our primary goal, when putting up a
slogan(*) Thus, Freeware is after all more prescriptive/normative
correct...The best of the best in Freeware - what we aim for.
</q>

How far do we go with the exceptions? Are we aiming for "The best of the
best in Freeware" or is that just pious posturing? Is the statement
"There are NO Adware/Spyware programs on the Pricelessware List." also
pious posturing?

Susan
--
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[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Does this mean that the likes of the Accoona toolbar should also be
considered for PL? .... I certainly hope not.

The eBay Search bar bundled with IrfanView too had some privacy issues.
At least the German localization did. They claimed to have solved the
problem by directly connecting to eBay instead of dealing through a
third party server. I hope they're right, but didn't bother to dig any
further into that subject. (Because I never installed that eBay option,
myself.)

This then opens the way for the many thousands of programs that bundle
malware (using the logic I'm reading here, the malware cannot be considered
as pure advertising because it provides "additional free
service"/"functionality").

Surely not. We need to check every case separately. Btw.: The eBay
search bar is currently place 8 inside the top ten Mozilla plugin
download center! So, ISTM, a whole lot of people are looking for
that functionality!

Irrespective of what we think of Irfanview, there has to be a stop point -

Yes. But that's, IMHO, not reached by IrfanView.

no more excuses for it's being there, no more "but you can just untick the
box to stop it being installed",

It's the other way round: You have to explicitly tick it ON. (It's
been differently in older versions, though. But Irfan changed it
quickly upon user requests.)

the motives for it's being included are purely financial,

As are donation requests and such things. Remember: The only times
you'll see eBay mentioned are the installation process and if you
page through the options. As long as you don't *actively* choose
to install the search bar... (The eBay entry inside the option
pages is *necessary* to optionally de-install the search bar.)

they could not care one bit whether or not we (do/do not
want it) and/or (do/do not find it useful).

Hm. I think, Irfan showed that he cares by changing the default
setting. It's not the world, but a step into the right direction.

I vote for taking it off..... but thats just me (adware is adware,
regardless of how it's cut)

Okay. I'm a bit less restrictive. ;-)

BeAr

 

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

I don't know if IrfanView belongs on the Pricelessware List or not. ISTM
there are issues that need serious discussion.

'Serious' seems a bit exaggerated.

Isn't the Pricelessware List ACF's showcase of the very best Freeware
and near Freeware. Shouldn't we be discussing IrfanView in that light?
IOW - does it still represent the Freeware ideal?

My 'Freeware ideal' requires Open source, active development, exhaustive
testing by a large community, being bug free (or at least: quick bug
fixing), independence of any large company/organization, written using
code optimization for speed and size (in that order), internationalization,
usage via command line and a nice and handy GUI likewise,... (I nearly
forgot usefulness for an important non-trivial purpose!)

Oops. Not one single program existent fulfills all conditions! ;-)

IOW: IrfanView is good enough to be a *first-rate recommendation* for
anybody looking for a good graphics viewer, converter,..., coffee
machine,... ;-)

Isn't the situation with IrfanView somewhat the opposite of the
situation with Opera - until it's recent conversion to Freeware it was
regarded by most as OT - this year it has been proposed for the PL. IMO
this is not a question about the quality of the program. . .

Opera showed an *always on* Ad. IrfanView lets you explicitly select
another tool on install - *if you want it*.

I recently proposed changing the wording of the Pricelessware slogan
from Freeware to free software. Bjorn S. had this to say:

[citation snipped]

I'm with Bjorn S. on that. As I am in most cases. ;-)
But we shouldn't make mountains out of molehills.

How far do we go with the exceptions? Are we aiming for "The best of the
best in Freeware" or is that just pious posturing? Is the statement
"There are NO Adware/Spyware programs on the Pricelessware List." also
pious posturing?

IrfanView had the search bar included during last years PW selection
and voting. And I checked back with Google: I *wasn't* the first one
calling Irfan View Adware within acf. There had been considerations
into this direction even before last years voting. Nobody thought it
necessary to object, back then. Seems, my posting in August just
triggered a threshold of recognition.

I don't think the situation changed since last year. Of course I'd
*like* Irfan removing the eBay option from the program. But surely
*not* on the price of going shareware/commercial...

BeAr

 

[Susan Bugher]

Silence will more often indicate a lack of opinion or a case of indecision
than an unstated opinion either way.

I don't think that's the case here. Most people in this group are
familiar with IrfanView. Most people have some personal definition of
Adware. IMO it's the emperor's clothes all over again. . . or the
three monkeys (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. . . I like the
app so I'm not going to say anything bad about it. . .

Susan
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