PC won't stop


J

James Silverton

Hello All!

I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow
with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut
down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows
is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs
even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power
switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without
any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out
the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine.

Has anyone any suggestions?

--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
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D

Don Phillipson

I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow
with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut
down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows is
shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs even
if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power switch on
the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without any apparent
problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out the USB connector
from the hub also shuts down the machine.

Has anyone any suggestions?

Standard methods used to include:
1. Removing or disabling all external devices (USB, Firewire etc.)
before shutdown.
2. Removing USB devices via keyboard (usually via Systray
icon that shows USB devices present.)

These standard methods were necessary under Win98 and
support for them continued under WinXP out of prudence: (before
pulling the plug on an external drive, we get confirmation from
the OS that all read or write operations have completed.)

It would take no time to test whether thus removing the USB hub
enables normal shutdown.
 
J

James Silverton

Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:47:54 -0400:
Standard methods used to include:
1. Removing or disabling all external devices (USB, Firewire etc.)
before shutdown.
2. Removing USB devices via keyboard (usually via Systray
icon that shows USB devices present.)
These standard methods were necessary under Win98 and
support for them continued under WinXP out of prudence: (before
pulling the plug on an external drive, we get confirmation
from the OS that all read or write operations have completed.)
It would take no time to test whether thus removing the USB
hub enables normal shutdown.

All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's
just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd
like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without
various subterfuges.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
A

Adrian C

Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:47:54 -0400:

All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's
just as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd
like to know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without
various subterfuges.

Find and fix the broken USB peripheral or related driver then. Try the
items one at a time, or enlist the help of support.
 
D

Don Phillipson

.. . .
All very interesting and removing the hub does what you say but it's just
as easy to flick the switch on the back of the computer. What I'd like to
know is how to make the "Turn off computer" do it's job without various
subterfuges.

We do not quite follow: is this a complaint about the OS (that the user
dislikes that WinXP requires prior removal of USB external devices) or
is it a question how to shut down without doing what the OS requires?
(Are OS required procedures "subterfuges"?}
 
P

Paul

James said:
Hello All!

I've got a different problem to "won't start". This is connected somehow
with a recently installed powered Belkin Four Port USB hub. When I shut
down the machine all goes well until the light blue screen and "Windows
is shutting down" appears. I am using Windows XP. The machine just hangs
even if it is possible to immediately stop with the computer power
switch on the rear of the of the thing and the machine restarts without
any apparent problems. Instead of using the power switch, pulling out
the USB connector from the hub also shuts down the machine.

Has anyone any suggestions?

What is the part number of the Belkin product ? They make a lot of
different four port hubs.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...00026 600000004&IsNodeId=1&&SrchInDesc=4-port

Paul
 
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J

James Silverton

Don wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:41:35 -0400:
We do not quite follow: is this a complaint about the OS (that the
user dislikes that WinXP requires prior removal of USB
external devices) or is it a question how to shut down without
doing what the OS requires? (Are OS required procedures
"subterfuges"?}

Until I installed the powered hub, pressing the "Turn Off" button would
cause a complete shutdown. That's what I would like to achieve without
flicking switches or removing hardware. The only device listed is the
external USB hard drive that I use for backups and it did not use to be
necessary to remove it for a shutdown.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
P

Paul

James said:
Paul wrote on Thu, 23 Sep 2010 17:36:45 -0400:



It is FSU234 and I think is a fairly recent model.

The model number could be F5U234 ("five" instead of "esse")

http://cache-www.belkin.com/support/dl/p74386ea_f5u234ea_uk_hr.pdf

If you're currently using the wall adapter with the hub, try
disconnecting the wall adapter and running the hub in "bus powered"
mode.

In bus powered mode, the 500mA from the computer, powers the hub plus
up to four 100mA loads.

That won't work with 2.5" hard drives connected to the hub, as those
typically try to draw 500mA from the bus/cable as well. They're "high
power" loads. So this debugging technique can't work, with 2.5" drives
as test devices (very few 2.5" drives come with their own wall adapters).

But a 3.5" drive, has its own power source inside, and only a couple
milliamps are drawn from the hub in that case. A 3.5" drive is no
load at all.

Disconnecting the hub adapter, for a test, is viable if you have only
3.5" hard drives connected. Give that a try.

One problem self-powered hubs can have, is "shoving power up the cable".
The hub really should have some protection for that, but it is hard
to arrange (the usage of diodes, won't fit well within the voltage
drop budget of the USB spec). By disconnecting the power supply from
your hub, I'd attempting to see if the problem is related to reverse
power flow.

I have one reference schematic for a hub here, and they use a relay
to disconnect the 5V lead on the upstream USB cable (to the computer).
The relay is activated, by the presence of the wall adapter 5V feed
on the hub. So when that hub design is wall powered, the relay inside
the hub "clicks" and opens the 5V wire path from the computer,
so the power can't flow backwards. If the wall adapter is de-energized,
then the relay allows 5V from the upsteam cable to flow again.
But relays cost money, and while that is a technically excellent
solution (no voltage drop etc, meets USB spec), it costs too much
to put in actual hubs.

I cannot relate the two issues. Reverse power flow, shouldn't prevent
the shutdown of the computer. But it's one thing to check.

The second possibility, would be related to power management software. But
I can't imagine a USB device using standard Microsoft drivers, refusing
to shut down. So that doesn't make much sense either. I'd have to bet
on a reverse power flow issue of some sort, instead. The program
UVCView, might be used to review config info coming from the hub, but
I don't know what would constitute "bad" info, if I had to look.

The program "dumppo", can be used to look for claims of power
management driver incompatibility in regular computer devices, but
I'm not aware of USB stuff appearing there. And I also haven't seen
any examples posted in recent years, of anything actually getting
listed by dumppo. Any manufacturer worth their salt, isn't going to
be admitting they can't get their hardware to work on an ACPI computer.
That would have stopped ten years ago.

Paul
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

Until I installed the powered hub, pressing the "Turn Off" button would
cause a complete shutdown. That's what I would like to achieve without
flicking switches or removing hardware. The only device listed is the
external USB hard drive that I use for backups and it did not use to be
necessary to remove it for a shutdown.

Keep the hub unpowered (i.e. just powered by the computer itself). See
if that helps.

Yousuf Khan
 
J

James Silverton

Paul wrote on Fri, 24 Sep 2010 16:52:39 -0400:
The model number could be F5U234 ("five" instead of "esse")

If you're currently using the wall adapter with the hub, try
disconnecting the wall adapter and running the hub in "bus
powered" mode.
In bus powered mode, the 500mA from the computer, powers the
hub plus up to four 100mA loads.
That won't work with 2.5" hard drives connected to the hub, as
those typically try to draw 500mA from the bus/cable as well. They're
"high power" loads. So this debugging technique can't work, with 2.5"
drives as test devices (very few 2.5" drives
come with their own wall adapters).
But a 3.5" drive, has its own power source inside, and only a couple
milliamps are drawn from the hub in that case. A 3.5"
drive is no load at all.
Disconnecting the hub adapter, for a test, is viable if you
have only 3.5" hard drives connected. Give that a try.
One problem self-powered hubs can have, is "shoving power up
the cable". The hub really should have some protection for
that, but it is hard to arrange (the usage of diodes, won't
fit well within the voltage drop budget of the USB spec). By
disconnecting the power supply from your hub, I'd attempting
to see if the problem is related to reverse power flow.
I have one reference schematic for a hub here, and they use a relay to
disconnect the 5V lead on the upstream USB cable (to the computer).
The relay is activated, by the presence of the wall adapter 5V feed on
the hub. So when that hub design is
wall powered, the relay inside the hub "clicks" and opens the 5V wire
path from the computer, so the power can't flow
backwards. If the wall adapter is de-energized, then the relay
allows 5V from the upsteam cable to flow again. But relays
cost money, and while that is a technically excellent solution
(no voltage drop etc, meets USB spec), it costs too much to
put in actual hubs.
I cannot relate the two issues. Reverse power flow, shouldn't prevent
the shutdown of the computer. But it's one thing to
check.
The second possibility, would be related to power management
software. But I can't imagine a USB device using standard
Microsoft drivers, refusing to shut down. So that doesn't make
much sense either. I'd have to bet on a reverse power flow
issue of some sort, instead. The program UVCView, might be
used to review config info coming from the hub, but I don't
know what would constitute "bad" info, if I had to look.
The program "dumppo", can be used to look for claims of power
management driver incompatibility in regular computer devices,
but I'm not aware of USB stuff appearing there. And I also
haven't seen any examples posted in recent years, of anything actually
getting listed by dumppo. Any manufacturer worth
their salt, isn't going to be admitting they can't get their
hardware to work on an ACPI computer. That would have stopped ten
years ago.

I appreciate the excellent suggestions for tracing and eliminating the
problem but it seems I must have a powered hub because the current drain
of several powered devices is too much for the USB card in my machine.
For example, the Logitech "Unifying Plug" on my wireless keyboard and
mouse occasionally behaves erratically when plugged into the USB card.

I don't see how to supply power to the hub without the 5 volt
wall-plugged adapter.

Microsoft Article ID: 315664 suggests turning off the "selective suspend
functionality' but I did that without any effect.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
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J

James Silverton

James wrote to Paul on Sat, 25 Sep 2010 08:58:46 -0400:
I appreciate the excellent suggestions for tracing and
eliminating the problem but it seems I must have a powered hub
because the current drain of several powered devices is too
much for the USB card in my machine. For example, the Logitech
"Unifying Plug" on my wireless keyboard and mouse occasionally
behaves erratically when plugged into the USB card.
I don't see how to supply power to the hub without the 5 volt
wall-plugged adapter.
Microsoft Article ID: 315664 suggests turning off the "selective
suspend functionality' but I did that without any effect.

Let me just add, in case anyone asks, that removing the 5 v wall supply
does not stop the hub from working but shut down is still prevented.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
 
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P

Paul

James said:
James wrote to Paul on Sat, 25 Sep 2010 08:58:46 -0400:




Let me just add, in case anyone asks, that removing the 5 v wall supply
does not stop the hub from working but shut down is still prevented.

Your hub is supposed to work either "self-powered" or "bus-powered".
The difference between the two operating modes, is how much downstream
power will be available.

If you unplug the F5U234 power adapter, the hub draws all power from
the USB cable (the bus). The USB spec says the cable can supply up
to 500mA, and that would be coming from the computer. The hub can
distribute that power, to low power loads, such as four ports of
100mA loading each.

When the power adapter is plugged in, each port is allowed to support
a high power device, or 500mA per port. Your adapter is supposed to
be powerful enough, to run all four ports at 500mA.

By disconnecting the adapter, I was hoping to prevent power from
going up the cable. On the chance, that was the reason the computer
would not shut off.

*******

In your Belkin user manual, it says this about operating the hub
without the power adapter providing power. I have no idea what
this means, or if it indicates there is something different
about two of the ports on the device.

"Important Note: The Hub may be used without the power supply when
connecting devices that draw 100mA of current or less,
however, only port 1 and port 2 will be functional."

Other than that, I don't know what else to tell you about debugging
this problem. It shouldn't be happening - it's probably a hardware
issue of some sort.

I'd probably start next, by making a list of all the USB devices
I've got, all the USB ports available (I/O plate area, separate
USB2 PCI card faceplate and so on), and see if some combination of
ports and devices, works better. For the wireless keyboard/mouse,
I'd probably plug that into the motherboard, on the chance that
it might work when I need to get into the BIOS setup screens.

Paul
 

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