Paper recommendation for HP inkjet

[Richard Steinfeld]

Hi.

After years of using laser and LED printers, two HP inkjets have dropped
into my life: an 850c and a 940c. I'm not interested in printing photos
on these machines due to a recent test report that indicated that HP's
inks have poor permanence.

So, I want results that are as good as what I've always gotten from the
Xerography-based printers. I'm experiencing a bit too much black ink
bleed and micro-blotched characters with two papers I've tried:

- Good quality name-brand laser/copier paper.
- Staples "all purpose" paper.
Both papers are 20 lb.

This is happening even with the driver set for slightly lighter density,
and the lowest ink quantity. I'm in "normal print" mode.

I'm not having the problem so much with the 850, which has OE
cartridges. The 940's got aftermarket refilled cartridges that came
well-recommended (InkGrabber, in Simi Valley, CA; which also uses at
least two other business names).

I'm enjoying learning this process. However, compared with the toner
printers, the cost of HP's OE ink is so insanely usurious that the only
way that I'll use these machines is with off-brand ink. HP's ink is more
expensive than Chanel #5. I'm not comfortable paying their CEO's
equally-insane salary, so if there's no way around this, it's off to the
landfill with the lot of them.

Unfortunately, HP has shot themselves in the feet rather grossly:
between their profiteering ink prices, the $2.50 per minute "award
winning support," and the ultra-stingy 90-day "warranty" (a policy that
admits that it's junk), they've lost me as a customer for everything
forever, and we've hardly even met!

Richard

 

[SteveB]

A lot of refill black inks for older HP printers were universal dye inks, I
remember it as being very difficult to get the required pigmented ink. It's
a lot easier now. Dye inks give spidery results on nearly all plain papers,
pigmented inks don't. The 940 should be capable of really excellent text
quality, the 850 I don't know but I would guess it would be similar. The
best paper I ever found was R de Ray 90gm, but most inkjet papers should be
OK.

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

Hi.

After years of using laser and LED printers, two HP inkjets have dropped
into my life: an 850c and a 940c. I'm not interested in printing photos
on these machines due to a recent test report that indicated that HP's
inks have poor permanence.

So, I want results that are as good as what I've always gotten from the
Xerography-based printers. I'm experiencing a bit too much black ink
bleed and micro-blotched characters with two papers I've tried:

- Good quality name-brand laser/copier paper.
- Staples "all purpose" paper.
Both papers are 20 lb.

While I agree with Steve B's post that the refill may have the 'wrong
kind' of ink, and that pigment inks make for better printing, you also
need to use better paper. Unlike laser printers, which fuse the
plastic toner to the paper surface, ink printers, even pigment,
'absorb' into the paper so are more sensitive to the type that you
use. Paper weight, and paper type both affect this. You need inkjet
specific papers, preferably heavier than 20 lb if you want the print
quality to be nice. The 'multipurpose paper' 'for all office machines'
is generally /not/ designed for inkjet printers, it usually means it's
good for laser printers/photocopiers/faxes that use toner or ribbons.

If it's the Staples paper that says Laser/Inkjet/Copier, it should
work fine and the problem is probably with the ink. But I think the 20
lb paper that you have is the Staples Copy Paper, which is not
formulated for inkjet printing and thus won't produce satisfactory
results.

No inkjet will be able to make monochrome text as nice as a laser
printer can on plain paper. My 1100D for business printing uses
pigment black and it looks very good even on cheap 20 lb paper, but if
you compare it to a laser print it's just not the same. The quality
will be very nice if you use coated papers such as HP's brochure or
presentation papers, but then your cost will skyrocket.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 00:02:52 -0700, Richard Steinfeld

Thanks for the thorough answer, Fenrir (and thanks to you other
respondents, too).

While I agree with Steve B's post that the refill may have the 'wrong
kind' of ink, and that pigment inks make for better printing, you also
need to use better paper.

I suspect that the ink is pigmented because the blacks are nice and
dense; so much so that I've had to back off the settings. And I am
wondering if I was sent a cartridge that's at the end of it's life.

Unlike laser printers, which fuse the

plastic toner to the paper surface, ink printers, even pigment,
'absorb' into the paper so are more sensitive to the type that you
use. Paper weight, and paper type both affect this. You need inkjet
specific papers, preferably heavier than 20 lb if you want the print
quality to be nice. The 'multipurpose paper' 'for all office machines'
is generally /not/ designed for inkjet printers, it usually means it's
good for laser printers/photocopiers/faxes that use toner or ribbons.

I've never bought this "jack of all trades" paper before. In fact, I'd
been using "copy"-specific paper earlier with my toner printers.

If it's the Staples paper that says Laser/Inkjet/Copier, it should
work fine and the problem is probably with the ink. But I think the 20
lb paper that you have is the Staples Copy Paper, which is not
formulated for inkjet printing and thus won't produce satisfactory
results.

The paper I've got is Staples "Multiuse paper, bright white, 96
brightness #513099." It's got less "tooth" than the Hammermill "Copy
Plus" that I'd been using with my LED printer. I'd always shied away
from the "multiuse papers" because they struck me as more for inkjets. I
figure that laser paper's got to have some texture to it in order for
the toner plastic to fuse into it (toner is mostly plastic intended to
melt at a specific temperature -- what I've used is a blend of
polypropylene, polyethylene, and a tiny amount of carbon).

But, looking at the chart on the back of the package, I do note that
it's not shown as optimum for inkjets. I should have looked at that
chart before plunking down my money. What puzzles me about this paper is
that it's listed as optimum for b/w copiers, but not for b/w lasers. I'd
figure that the requirements for both would be the same. Wha?

This Hammermill paper is nice stuff, and it's quite reasonably-priced. I
can recommend it for laser printing. It looks decent in 20# and feeds
well -- no paper jams.

What I'm looking for is a low-cost paper specific for inkjet work that's
as good a value as the Hammermill stuff I've been using with my LED
printer. Any recommendations? I don't need "Carly Fiorina President's
Bond," just great, low-cost inkjet paper.

Richard

 

[Bob Headrick]

Hi.

After years of using laser and LED printers, two HP inkjets have
dropped into my life: an 850c and a 940c. I'm not interested in
printing photos on these machines due to a recent test report that
indicated that HP's inks have poor permanence.

What "recent test report"? The ten year old 850 is not much good for
photo's, but the 940c is not bad. As for image permanence, the #78
cartridge used in the 940c is comparable to silver halide prints. See
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,68798,pg,20,00.asp which
says: "Prints from HP's DeskJet 970, when used with that company's
Colorfast Photo Paper and HP cartridge number 78 dye-based inks, can
last 18 to 20 years when displayed under glass, says Wilhelm, and 10 to
13 years without glass (about the same longevity as prints from the
silver halide film used in a traditional camera)."

So, I want results that are as good as what I've always gotten from
the Xerography-based printers. I'm experiencing a bit too much black
ink bleed and micro-blotched characters with two papers I've tried: [snip]
I'm not having the problem so much with the 850, which has OE
cartridges. The 940's got aftermarket refilled cartridges that came
well-recommended (InkGrabber, in Simi Valley, CA; which also uses at
least two other business names).

I would suspect your cartridges. Check the date on the #45 in the 850
as shown at
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?lc=en&cc=us&docname=bua02014.
The date shown on the cartridge is two years from the date of
manufacture. I suspect you have a very old cartridge. Chuck the #15
reman and try a fresh HP cartridge. You could also put the #15
cartridge in the DeskJet 850 and verify that the problem moves with the
cartridge.

- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Thanks for replying, Bob.

What "recent test report"?

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/PCWorld_Cheap_Inks_2003_10.pdf

PC World 9/2003

The article was primarily about refilled inkjet cartridges vs OE
cartridges. They said that the HP 3820 printer that they used in their
test cost an average of 15.5 cents per printed page for OE ink, more
than twice the cost of OE ink for the Epson and Canon machines.

OE ink permanence was listed in the article as 15 years for HP, 27 years
for Canon, and 92 years for Epson. To be fair, the article said that HP
has improved their ink permanence for printers after the 3820. They also
said that most third-party refilled cartridges gave inferior results in
one way or another.

The ten year old 850 is not much good for

photo's, but the 940c is not bad. As for image permanence, the #78
cartridge used in the 940c is comparable to silver halide prints.

That's certainly impressive.

See

http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/article/0,aid,68798,pg,20,00.asp which
says: "Prints from HP's DeskJet 970, when used with that company's
Colorfast Photo Paper and HP cartridge number 78 dye-based inks, can
last 18 to 20 years when displayed under glass, says Wilhelm, and 10 to
13 years without glass (about the same longevity as prints from the
silver halide film used in a traditional camera)."

So, I want results that are as good as what I've always gotten from
the Xerography-based printers. I'm experiencing a bit too much black
ink bleed and micro-blotched characters with two papers I've tried:
[snip]

I'm not having the problem so much with the 850, which has OE
cartridges. The 940's got aftermarket refilled cartridges that came
well-recommended (InkGrabber, in Simi Valley, CA; which also uses at
least two other business names).

I would suspect your cartridges. Check the date on the #45 in the 850
as shown at
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/genericDocument?lc=en&cc=us&docname=bua02014.
The date shown on the cartridge is two years from the date of
manufacture. I suspect you have a very old cartridge. Chuck the #15
reman and try a fresh HP cartridge. You could also put the #15
cartridge in the DeskJet 850 and verify that the problem moves with the
cartridge.

Do you mean that the 850 will use the smaller #15 cartridge? I
understand that the 940 won't accept the opposite swap.

Richard

 

[Fenrir Enterprises]

I suspect that the ink is pigmented because the blacks are nice and
dense; so much so that I've had to back off the settings. And I am
wondering if I was sent a cartridge that's at the end of it's life.

You should probably get a set of OEM ink tanks so that you have known
good hardware, then refill them when the time comes with /good/ ink
from MIS or others that is specified for that specific cartridge.
Remember to always try to refill /before/ it runs dry (A little
difficult, especially if the ink monitor stops working, though I don't
remember if the 940c even /had/ a print monitor)

Unlike laser printers, which fuse the

I've never bought this "jack of all trades" paper before. In fact, I'd
been using "copy"-specific paper earlier with my toner printers.

It's more cost effective to buy multipurpose paper, for instance, if
you have an older copier and a new laser fax machine. But it's not
meant for inkjets.

The paper I've got is Staples "Multiuse paper, bright white, 96
brightness #513099." It's got less "tooth" than the Hammermill "Copy
Plus" that I'd been using with my LED printer. I'd always shied away
from the "multiuse papers" because they struck me as more for inkjets. I
figure that laser paper's got to have some texture to it in order for
the toner plastic to fuse into it (toner is mostly plastic intended to
melt at a specific temperature -- what I've used is a blend of
polypropylene, polyethylene, and a tiny amount of carbon).

The terminology is confusing (multi-/what?/), but it generally means
multi-use for office machines that use laser, older copier, and ribbon
technology. Not so much for inkjets.

But, looking at the chart on the back of the package, I do note that
it's not shown as optimum for inkjets. I should have looked at that
chart before plunking down my money. What puzzles me about this paper is
that it's listed as optimum for b/w copiers, but not for b/w lasers. I'd
figure that the requirements for both would be the same. Wha?

There's enough of a difference in the technology (Mostly due to
improvements than any outright change) that copy-specific or
laser-specific papers are not optimum for each other. In reality, it
shouldn't matter too much, and both should work even if they don't say
multi-use. The multi-use paper was created specifically for the few
combinations where this didn't work. Most Inkjet papers have 'sizing'
added during manufacture that makes it less absorbant so it will
feather less.

This Hammermill paper is nice stuff, and it's quite reasonably-priced. I
can recommend it for laser printing. It looks decent in 20# and feeds
well -- no paper jams.

What I'm looking for is a low-cost paper specific for inkjet work that's
as good a value as the Hammermill stuff I've been using with my LED
printer. Any recommendations? I don't need "Carly Fiorina President's
Bond," just great, low-cost inkjet paper.

Richard

Staples has their brand of 24# bond paper on sale still, the 24#/92
brightness for about $4, and the 24#/97 brightness for about $4.50.
They're both in orange packages, the 92 bright with a green stripe,
and the 97 with a blue stripe. Both of them say laser, copier, /and/
inkjet. Unfortunately you missed the sale a few weeks ago where they
had the 24#/92b for $1.94, I should have bought more than two myself.
These should work better than the 20# copy paper that you have, but
you may be expecting a bit too much out of what's now a rather old
(but still good quality) inkjet.

Office Depot usually has their own brand of papers for sale for buy 2
get one free, at about $6 per ream that goes down to about $4. Their
papers are separate for Inkjet and Laser use, while Staples is
'combined' (they had a huge ad campaign last year about how this is
somehow better, I'm not so sure about that one). But either brand
should work, just as long as it says inkjet on the package. The 20 lb
paper is just too thin, even if you get inkjet-specific 20# paper it
usually looks bad.

---

http://www.FenrirOnline.com

Computer services, custom metal etching,
arts, crafts, and much more.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

just great, low-cost inkjet paper.

You can have great, --OR-- you can have low cost. I've not seen
both in the same package

How many reams a year will you be using? If the volume is high, you should
go back to a good laser printer and save money.

 

[Bob Headrick]

Do you mean that the 850 will use the smaller #15 cartridge? I
understand that the 940 won't accept the opposite swap.

Yes, the #15 can be used in printers designed for the #45, but the
reverse is generally not true. Except for testing purposes it would not
make sense to actually use the #15 if you can use the #45....

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Bob Headrick]

Remember to always try to refill /before/ it runs dry (A little
difficult, especially if the ink monitor stops working, though I don't
remember if the 940c even /had/ a print monitor)

The DeskJet 940 does have an ink monitor but the DeskJet 850 did not.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[measekite]

You should probably get a set of OEM ink tanks

that includes the canon oem ink. why go generic

so that you have known
good hardware, then refill them when the time comes with /good/ ink
from MIS or others

they will not disclose what they are selling but there are a few in this
ng who will not admit to that

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

SteveB wrote:


The

best paper I ever found was R de Ray 90gm, but most inkjet papers should be
OK.

"R de Ray?" What country are you in? I've never heard of this brand.
Would you be so kind as to describe this paper? Is it for inkjets?

Richard