page file size

A

axis

Why do I still need a page file, even when I have 1 Gig of ram and my RAM
usage normally hovers around 3-400mb? If I set the page file to be very
small windows XP goes nuts. I understand the need for page files in memory
constrained situations, I would appreaciate some info as to why one needs it
even in a situation where we shouldn't need to page any data our of memory
to disk.

thanks
 
G

Gordon

axis wrote:
|| Why do I still need a page file, even when I have 1 Gig of ram and
|| my RAM usage normally hovers around 3-400mb? If I set the page file
|| to be very small windows XP goes nuts. I understand the need for
|| page files in memory constrained situations, I would appreaciate
|| some info as to why one needs it even in a situation where we
|| shouldn't need to page any data our of memory to disk.
||
|| thanks

There are one or two applications that use pagefile, even if you have got
10GB of RAM! I'm sure someone will tell us which they are.....
 
C

Carey Frisch [MVP]

I have found that Windows XP runs best when using the
default virtual memory settings. Windows XP always will
use virtual memory, regardless of how much RAM is installed.

Please review the following:

Virtual Memory in Windows XP
http://aumha.org/win5/a/xpvm.php

[Courtesy of MS-MVP Alex Nichol]

How can I optimize the Windows 2000/XP/2003 virtual memory (Pagefile)?
http://www.petri.co.il/pagefile_optimization.htm

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User
Microsoft Newsgroups

Be Smart! Protect Your PC!
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/protect/default.mspx

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:

| Why do I still need a page file, even when I have 1 Gig of ram and my RAM
| usage normally hovers around 3-400mb? If I set the page file to be very
| small windows XP goes nuts. I understand the need for page files in memory
| constrained situations, I would appreaciate some info as to why one needs it
| even in a situation where we shouldn't need to page any data our of memory
| to disk.
|
| thanks
 
A

Al Dykes

axis wrote:
|| Why do I still need a page file, even when I have 1 Gig of ram and
|| my RAM usage normally hovers around 3-400mb? If I set the page file
|| to be very small windows XP goes nuts. I understand the need for
|| page files in memory constrained situations, I would appreaciate
|| some info as to why one needs it even in a situation where we
|| shouldn't need to page any data our of memory to disk.
||
|| thanks

There are one or two applications that use pagefile, even if you have got
10GB of RAM! I'm sure someone will tell us which they are.....

--
Interim Systems and Management Accounting
Gordon Burgess-Parker
Director
www.gbpcomputing.co.uk

Why worry, the size the pagefile isn't costing you anything.

If you think you have a performance problem perfmon.exe will tell you
how many pages/sec you're reading/writing on the pagefile and which
apps are doing it.
 
A

axis

I understand the topics discussed on the page. My question still seems
appropriate. A page file is necessary so that all applications can be
allocated as much VM as they need, without exhausting physical RAM. In a
desktop with 1Gb of RAM, under normal usage I have yet to see memory usage
above 500mb, which begs the question why should I have a page file, and why
does XP complain when a small page file exists?

I'm happy to let windows manage the page file, this is just an academic
discussion.
 
A

axis

My question is out of curiosity and not necessarily my wanting to optimize
anything.

Why does XP seem to actively use the page file when I have a Gig of RAM and
memory usage hovers around 400mb? And if I manually set the page file to a
small size, say 32mb, XP complains about being out of memory (a little
balloon popup), while the apps and XP still continue to run without
problems.
 
R

R. McCarty

Windows-NT, 2000 & XP was designed & Built during the time when
installed memory wasn't at the levels it can easily be at today. Actually,
the NT Kernel was written by former DEC Engineers who wrote the
operating system for VAX (Virtual Address E(X)pension computers
that run VMS (Virtual Memory System).
Think of it this way, to XP memory isn't really just Physical RAM it
also takes into account Virtual Memory (Pagefile). Even with PCs that
have significant amounts of RAM ( I have 1.0 Gigabytes) Pagefile use
still must happen. With my system there is usually around 40 Meg in
use. As I type this, I'm running AdAware on a Virtual PC running a
Win98-2nd edition machine. My pagefile use went up to 62 Megs as
the VPC booted up. Even though my computer has 1.0 Gigabytes of
physical RAM and the VPC is allocated 256 Megabytes of that.
And Yes you can turn off the Pagefile and XP will continue to work.
It (XP) is smart enough to work around almost all memory conditions
it is forced to run in. So you can adjust it, move it or turn it off
entirely
and XP will adapt.
 
D

Don Burnette

The OS was designed to utilize the page file in certain situations,
irregardless of how much physical ram is present. Memory dumps after a crash
being one example.

--
Don Burnette

"When you decide something is impossible to do, try to stay out of the
way of the man that's doing it."
 
M

Mike Hall \(MS-MVP\)

One reason for having a managed pagefile.. in the event of a problem ,
Windows can dump the entire contents of physical RAM to the pagefile.. not
possible if the pagefile is the same size or smaller than installed RAM..
 
M

Mikhail Zhilin

"How to configure paging files for optimization and recovery in Windows
XP"
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;314482

<quote>
However, if you remove the paging file from the boot partition, Windows
cannot create a dump file (Memory.dmp) in which to write debugging
information in the event that a kernel mode Stop Error message occurs.
This could lead to extended downtime if you must debug to troubleshoot
the Stop error message.
</quote>

And it is not the only disadvantage of disabling Virtual Memory. There
are the other related MS KB articles, and one of them (can't find fast
its number) warns specifically about avoiding disabling paging file even
when large amount of RAM is installed -- with the substantiation of this
statement.

--
Mikhail Zhilin
http://www.aha.ru/~mwz
Sorry, no technical support by e-mail.
Please reply to the newsgroups only.
======
 
A

axis

I'll try to find the KB article you mention at the end of your post.

I don't know if anyone here can answer this question but -- with ample free
memory in a system, will XP still evict VM pages to the disk page file?

Thanks to everyone for their responses up to this point.
 
R

Richard Urban

There is really nothing to discuss. Microsoft designed "their" operating
system that way. If you are, or know someone who is, smarter than the
Microsoft engineers - please, reverse engineer the system and post a fix.
Many would thank you for it.

Until then, just flow with the tide!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
 
A

axis

You could just say you don't know. :)

Don't get your panties in a buch. No one's criticizing anything, I'm just
trying to get more info about XP's behavior. Nothing wrong with that.
 
R

Richard Urban

Try running AutoCAD or Photoshop without a page file. See how horrendously
slow these programs are when working with large files.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :)

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
 
A

axis

Sigh...

Again not saying that page files shouldn't be used. I'm curious as to the
internals of XP and how memory management works.
 
R

Ron Martell

axis said:
Why do I still need a page file, even when I have 1 Gig of ram and my RAM
usage normally hovers around 3-400mb? If I set the page file to be very
small windows XP goes nuts. I understand the need for page files in memory
constrained situations, I would appreaciate some info as to why one needs it
even in a situation where we shouldn't need to page any data our of memory
to disk.

thanks

One big reason is that Windows uses the page file to satisfy the
memory address space requirements for the unused portions of memory
allocation requests.

By design Windows must identify specific memory address space for all
of the memory allocation requests that are issued, whether by Windows
itself, device drivers, or application programs. And all of these
typically ask for allocations that are larger that what is usually
needed under normal circumstances. So what Windows does is to
allocate RAM only to those portions of these requests that are
actually used and uses space in the page file for the unused portions.

Two points about this:
1. Mapping of these unused portions of memory requests to the page
file does not require any actual writing to the hard drive. All that
is need is entries in the memory mapping tables maintained by the CPU.
2. Windows Task Manager includes the swap file space allocated to
these unused ports as Page File Usage in the data reported on the
performance tab.

And if subsequent events result in the usage of previously requested
but unused memory then it can be instantaneously remapped from the
page file to an available location in RAM.

The bottom line, insofar as the current topic is concerned, is that
the existence of the page file will make the actual usage of your RAM
more efficient. Without a page file it is quite possible, indeed even
likely, that you would have a couple of hundred megabytes of RAM tied
up for memory that was requested but never used.


Also you need to be aware that Windows does use the page file for more
than just swapping out of memory content from RAM. It is also used
for:
a: System Failure Memory Dumps, unless you have this option
configured as "no memory dump". And in order for this option to be
usable there must be an existing page file on the boot drive that is
at least as large as the dump size option selected.
b: If you have multiple users configured on the computer and if you
have the "fast user switching" option in effect then Windows will use
the page file to "roll out" the memory contents of the previous user
when the machine is switched to a new user.

Hope this explains the situation.

Good luck


Ron Martell Duncan B.C. Canada
--
Microsoft MVP
On-Line Help Computer Service
http://onlinehelp.bc.ca

"The reason computer chips are so small is computers don't eat much."
 
M

Mikhail Zhilin

Not the article I meant -- but with similar woding:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308417

<quote>
- For best performance, do not set the initial size to less than the
minimum recommended size under Total paging file size for all drives.
<...>
- To delete a paging file, set both the initial size and the maximum
size to zero, or click No paging file. We strongly recommend that you do
not disable or delete the paging file.
</quote>

--
Mikhail Zhilin
http://www.aha.ru/~mwz
Sorry, no technical support by e-mail.
Please reply to the newsgroups only.
======
 
D

David Candy

And the CPU was designed to page, the motherboard chipsets were designed to page. Windows was designed to suit the hardware.
 

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