P4S800 Audio noise

B

Bill D.

Just bought this board to replace an Asus P3B-F (Celeron D 2.4Ghz, 1Gb
PC3200, ATI Radeon 9200). On the old board was using a (cheap) SoundBlaster
card and never had much "background" noise from the speakers other than a
little hiss. On the new board with the onboard audio I'm gettting a
constant hum from the speakers (Altec Lansing sub with 2 satellites). Any
suggestions?
 
P

Paul

"Bill D." said:
Just bought this board to replace an Asus P3B-F (Celeron D 2.4Ghz, 1Gb
PC3200, ATI Radeon 9200). On the old board was using a (cheap) SoundBlaster
card and never had much "background" noise from the speakers other than a
little hiss. On the new board with the onboard audio I'm gettting a
constant hum from the speakers (Altec Lansing sub with 2 satellites). Any
suggestions?

By hum, I take it this is 60Hz hum ?

Hum could be introduced a couple of ways. Some input to
the sound chip could be enabled, and if there is a long
cable connected to the input, maybe the hum is leaking in
that way.

A more likely cause, is via a ground loop. The Altec is
probably using a two prong plug, and the ground (reference)
level should be established via the plugs/jacks between
the two devices (computer and speakers).

By chance, are you plugging the computer into the wall,
using a plug converter ? On some older Canadian homes,
there aren't three prong plugs, and they have only two prong
plugs. This means some people have a number of three prong
to two prong adapters. This would be a big mistake for a
computer, the reason being, the ATX power supply could have
a noise filter, to preventing computer digital noise from
going back into the wall socket. Since there is a capacitor
to safety ground from that filter, a small amount
of AC current is diverted into safety ground as well. This
is known and on purpose. The idea is, the third prong drains
that current to the house ground, so on a modern house there
would be no problem.

If the third prong of the computer is not grounded, but is
left floating, then you may receive a shock from the case of the
computer, or any time you touch the metal ground of computer
cables or connectors. If the computer third prong is not grounded,
it also means all the audio outputs will have that AC noise
as well, as the audio signals would be floating on a sea of
60Hz signal.

So, check the ground path to the wall. If you have an ohmmeter,
unplug the ATX power supply, then measure from the third prong
(the ground prong) of the ATX power supply, to ground on one of
the computer connectors on the back of the computer. There should
be very close to zero ohms here - a good ground path is to be
expected. But that path also has to flow into the wall socket,
so a bad ground on the wall socket could also mess it up.

I'm no audio expert, and perhaps if you describe exactly how
you've wired everything around the computer, to someone in
an audio news group, they can give you some better suggestions
as to how to break the ground loop.

HTH,
Paul
 
C

CeeBee

Just bought this board to replace an Asus P3B-F (Celeron D 2.4Ghz, 1Gb
PC3200, ATI Radeon 9200). On the old board was using a (cheap)
SoundBlaster card and never had much "background" noise from the
speakers other than a little hiss. On the new board with the onboard
audio I'm gettting a constant hum from the speakers (Altec Lansing sub
with 2 satellites). Any suggestions?


Check the (advanced) properties, of your sound settings. Check if the
things that should be muted are muted, like line-in etc., if you don't use
them.
Check and uncheck each, one at a time to see what might make the humming
noise.

--
CeeBee


"I don't know half of you
half as well as I should like;
and I like less than half of you
half as well as you deserve."
 
M

Markus L

Bill D. said:
Just bought this board to replace an Asus P3B-F (Celeron D 2.4Ghz, 1Gb
PC3200, ATI Radeon 9200). On the old board was using a (cheap) SoundBlaster
card and never had much "background" noise from the speakers other than a
little hiss. On the new board with the onboard audio I'm gettting a
constant hum from the speakers (Altec Lansing sub with 2 satellites). Any
suggestions?

Using same board here and have to confirm your findings. Depending on PC
activity there is more or less noise on the audio output. It's definitely
not AC hum. Guess noise is either caused by insufficiently filtered DC
supply or by capacitive coupling due to bad PCB layout. This shortcoming was
also mentioned in a review I found online.
 
B

Bill D.

Thanks for the in depth response Paul, you may have hit the nail on the
head. I do indeed have a plug converter on the wall outlet (live in an old
apartment with only a couple of 3 prong plugs, none remotely close to the
computer) and have plugged in a power bar that has 3 prong plugs in it.
I'll have the landlord get his electrician to install a properly grounded 3
prong plug for the computer and see if that makes a difference. If it
doesn't, then perhaps Markus' post will be correct at which point I'll be
looking into buying a sound card.
 
P

Paul

"Bill D." said:
Thanks for the in depth response Paul, you may have hit the nail on the
head. I do indeed have a plug converter on the wall outlet (live in an old
apartment with only a couple of 3 prong plugs, none remotely close to the
computer) and have plugged in a power bar that has 3 prong plugs in it.
I'll have the landlord get his electrician to install a properly grounded 3
prong plug for the computer and see if that makes a difference. If it
doesn't, then perhaps Markus' post will be correct at which point I'll be
looking into buying a sound card.
My parents live in an old house like your apartment. The wall
sockets are all the two prong variety. When I installed a
computer there, what I did, was buy an expensive power
strip that happened to have a green safety ground screw on
the side of the power strip. Got some heavy wire (maybe 14ga?)
from the hardware store, plus a clamp. Placed clamp on the cold
water pipe, under the sink. Ran a long wire from the sink, to the
fixed location of the computer. The power strip plugs into the
wall with the 3-to-2 adapter, and the piece of wire that runs
to the cold water pipe, provides the ground. Uses a crimp
connector, to provide a nice circular contact plate to meet
the head of the screw.

I doubt this meets electrical code, but it was the best I could
do, to prevent a shock hazard. Obviously, if there is a power
supply failure, where the hot wire gets shorted to safety
ground, that path to the cold water pipe had better be low
impedance, so the breaker trips before something burns. In
a house, it is relatively easy, to go to the basement, and see
whether the proper jumper wire, is used to jumper the cold water
distribution on one side of the water meter, to the copper
pipe coming in from the street. Having the electrician look
into this, in an old apartment, would be a good thing to do,
as who knows whether there is any adequate ground structure
in the apartment to wire to.

At least temporarily connecting this ground wire, from a
cold water pipe, to safety ground, would indicate whether
this is where the hum problem comes from. (I.e. When there
is no ATX power supply failure, the current flowing in the
wire will be tiny. Connecting a wire to the cold water,
then running it over to the computer, to ground some of the
case metal momentarily, may indicate whether a more permanent
connection via the electrician will improve things or not.
When handling the wire and the computer, don't make yourself
part of the circuit. Handle the wire by the insulation while
touching it to the case of the computer, just in case. I've received
a respectable shock in an industrial situation, from
improperly implemented safety grounds, so don't join the
club.)

In theory, another solution would be if ATX power supplies
did not have a common mode filter on their input side. That
filter is what leaks current into safety ground. But, if
that filter was removed, the electrical interference would
make it impossible to watch TV in your apartment. So, it is
a necessary function, and in some cases, an expensive
power strip that contains its own version of the filter,
can even improve the often inadequate size of the filter
used in the ATX supply. As long as one or more of those
filters is involved, the 60Hz current that leaks through the
filter has to go somewhere, and that is the convenient
path provided by the safety ground.

[ Don't accept electrical wiring advice off the Internet :)
Just like you wouldn't accept medical advice off the net.
You've been warned... The electrician is your friend. ]

HTH,
Paul
 
C

Cape Cod

By hum, I take it this is 60Hz hum ?

Hum could be introduced a couple of ways. Some input to
the sound chip could be enabled, and if there is a long
cable connected to the input, maybe the hum is leaking in
that way.

A more likely cause, is via a ground loop. The Altec is
probably using a two prong plug, and the ground (reference)
level should be established via the plugs/jacks between
the two devices (computer and speakers).

By chance, are you plugging the computer into the wall,
using a plug converter ? On some older Canadian homes,
there aren't three prong plugs, and they have only two prong
plugs. This means some people have a number of three prong
to two prong adapters. This would be a big mistake for a
computer, the reason being, the ATX power supply could have
a noise filter, to preventing computer digital noise from
going back into the wall socket. Since there is a capacitor
to safety ground from that filter, a small amount
of AC current is diverted into safety ground as well. This
is known and on purpose. The idea is, the third prong drains
that current to the house ground, so on a modern house there
would be no problem.

If the third prong of the computer is not grounded, but is
left floating, then you may receive a shock from the case of the
computer, or any time you touch the metal ground of computer
cables or connectors. If the computer third prong is not grounded,
it also means all the audio outputs will have that AC noise
as well, as the audio signals would be floating on a sea of
60Hz signal.

So, check the ground path to the wall. If you have an ohmmeter,
unplug the ATX power supply, then measure from the third prong
(the ground prong) of the ATX power supply, to ground on one of
the computer connectors on the back of the computer. There should
be very close to zero ohms here - a good ground path is to be
expected. But that path also has to flow into the wall socket,
so a bad ground on the wall socket could also mess it up.

I'm no audio expert, and perhaps if you describe exactly how
you've wired everything around the computer, to someone in
an audio news group, they can give you some better suggestions
as to how to break the ground loop.

HTH,
Paul

paul,

You seem to know what you are talking about. Please help me too for
the following problem.

---------
After I replaced the power supply unit to my computer, the built-in
sound card of A7M266 board started making high pitched noise.
Interestingly, it disappears when Windows XP is loaded but not with
linux os. Any suggestion short of returning the power supply will be
appreciated. It is also possible I might have done something to the
mother board while replacing the power supply.

cod
 
F

Fishface

Bill said:
Just bought this board to replace an Asus P3B-F (Celeron D 2.4Ghz, 1Gb
PC3200, ATI Radeon 9200). On the old board was using a (cheap) SoundBlaster
card and never had much "background" noise from the speakers other than a
little hiss. On the new board with the onboard audio I'm gettting a
constant hum from the speakers (Altec Lansing sub with 2 satellites). Any
suggestions?

In a review of some Altec Lansing speakers on Amazon.com:
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000C20XD/qid=1103171840

....a guy suggested this device from Radio Shack to get rid of the ground loop.
It looks like you might need another one of those 1/8" adapters to go with that:
www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=270-054
 
B

Bill D.

Just thought I'd update this thread. Had the 2 prong receptacle replaced
with a 3 prong grounded receptacle and the problem is still there. I've
determined it's not the Altec speakers as I get the same hum if I feed the
output throught my Home Theatre system. Next step I suppose is try the old
sound card in the system and see if it behaves the same way.
 
P

Paul

"Bill D." said:
Just thought I'd update this thread. Had the 2 prong receptacle replaced
with a 3 prong grounded receptacle and the problem is still there. I've
determined it's not the Altec speakers as I get the same hum if I feed the
output throught my Home Theatre system. Next step I suppose is try the old
sound card in the system and see if it behaves the same way.

That would be a good idea. The sound card might be better than
the onboard anyway.

Have you tried it this way ? With both devices using the
same duplex wall outlet ? Or on the same power strip ?
If the speakers are plugged into an outlet across the room,
maybe there is a ground difference ?

----
| X---------Comp----(audio)--+
| |
| X---------Speakers<--------+
----

And, as Markus suggested, you've checked that the sound is
60Hz hum and not some other frequency ?

If this was my comp, the next thing I'd try, would be to
swap out the PSU and try another. Maybe there isn't ground
continuity through the power supply. Other than that, if the
ground wire in the audio cable was open circuit, I don't think
you'd get any normal audio signal.

Hoping for a logical explanation :)
Paul
 
B

Bill D.

I'm going to try the sound card tonight and hope that it clears up the
issue. I have not tried plugging the speakers into a different wall outlet
but that would be worth a try. The only thing I can add with respect to
that is the speakers do not hum at all when power is on and it is not
plugged into the onboard sound card. I do have another power supply in an
older system that I could try although it doesn't have the output of the one
I'm using now, howerver, for a quick test it would probably be ok The power
supply came with the case so maybe it's a quality issue in that unit.

I was certainly hoping that this would have been a cleaner transition to the
new system ;-)
 
M

Markus L

Bill D. said:
I'm going to try the sound card tonight and hope that it clears up the
issue. I have not tried plugging the speakers into a different wall outlet
but that would be worth a try. The only thing I can add with respect to
that is the speakers do not hum at all when power is on and it is not
plugged into the onboard sound card. I do have another power supply in an
older system that I could try although it doesn't have the output of the one
I'm using now, howerver, for a quick test it would probably be ok The power
supply came with the case so maybe it's a quality issue in that unit.

I was certainly hoping that this would have been a cleaner transition to the
new system ;-)

IMHO this is definitely not a hum issue, but the result of a bad design job
by ASUS (noisy supply voltage or insufficient isolation between audio paths
and nearby digital signals). Actually I can _listen_ to my P4S800D-E's
activitiy in the speakers! Depending on the kind of activity (disk access
etc.) a different noise pattern is generated. Since my most demanding sound
application is the aircraft engine sound in a flight simulator I don't care
much :)
 
P

Paul

"Bill D." said:
Just put in the old sound card and no hum at all.

Thanks for all the input.

So it wasn't line hum (60Hz), but some other tone. A tone can result
if there is crosstalk between digital circuits on the motherboard
and some analog input on the built-in audio circuit. (Like the cable
that goes to the CDROM drive - it makes an excellent antenna.)

A plug-in sound card will fix a tone like that.

Actual hum (60 hertz) is a different story.

Paul
 

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