OT: Value of CS Degree

[Kevin Spencer]

Hi Nick,

Well, I'll have to give you your points. It occurs to me that my experience,
particularly as I grow older (I turned 50 a couple of weeks ago) tends to
move farther and farther outside the bell curve. I got into programming when
there were precious few schools that taught computer science and
programming, and the technology and theories were much simpler. I also
didn't start out looking for a job, but started my own business, as the WWW
was a new thing to most of the world. I saw a window of opportunity and went
for it. In any number of ways I tend to fall outside the bell curve, and
over my lifetime I've had to develop techniques for handling typical
situations in atypical ways which were more suited to me in one way or the
other.

So, I have to acknowledge that you have strong points and that at least for
those who fall within the fat part of the bell curve (which by definition is
most of us), your advice is sound.

I suppose I would only emphasize that, while a degree provides a generally
reliable and effective measuring tool, as far as the employer is concerned,
that it is by far not the only, nor the best measuring tool available, and
that for the individual seeking to make a career of programming, it is
ultimately perseverance, diligence, dedication to excellence, and
self-motivation that prove to be of the greatest value overall in the long
run.

We can agree on these ideas, yes?

--
:-D,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.

 

[Cor Ligthert [MVP]]

Jon,

You are right, I ask to much from you or any reader (the fault is completely
mine).

What I meant was that because you in my idea want to go often to the ultimo
in depth, this will often give a stress (or any word you want in this), with
the maintainability.

I hope this explains it better.

Cor

I'm afraid I don't understand *any* part of this post, or how it
relates to mine,

You are rigth, it would ask to much from you or any reader.

What I ment was that although you in my idea want to go to the depth, this
will often give a stress (or any word you want in this), with the
maintainability.

I hope this explains it better.

Cor

 

[Jon Skeet [C# MVP]]

You are right, I ask to much from you or any reader (the fault is completely
mine).

No problem - thanks for having another go.

What I meant was that because you in my idea want to go often to the ultimo
in depth, this will often give a stress (or any word you want in this), with
the maintainability.

I hope this explains it better.

I think so, but I disagree. How can understanding more about the basics
of the technology make code *less* maintainable? I'm not talking about
going down to understanding IL, or looking at the details of JITting -
I'm talking about the basics of value types vs reference types in this
situation.

*Sometimes* having knowledge "inside" the CLR helps, but I agree that
it should only be used when either maintainability isn't compromised or
when for specific (preferrably very small) pieces of code, performance
is more important than maintainability. The latter should be very rare.

We're in complete agreement that maintainability is incredibly
important - I just don't see that designing a system without
understanding the basics is a good way of achieving it. (On the
contrary, it's often a way of ending up with a convoluted solution
which could be simpler and more maintainable.)

Jon

 

[Fred Mertz]

Hi Jon,

RE:
<<Did I handle this as well as possible? Almost certainly not.>>

Neither did I, nor am I proud of my contributions to the degeneration of
this thread.

It would therefore be rather hippocritical for me to attempt to give you
additional feedback of my perceptions of any of your possible faults. So I
will not attempt to further disect our prior exchanges in any effort to
justify myself and/or point out how you could have done better. By now we
have made our respective points of view clear, anyway.

FWIW: The bottom line [for me] out of our exchanges is twofold: (1) Next
time I don't like what I'm hearing, I'll pay more attention to the message
rather than the "packaging" (or perceived mispackaging) of the message; and
(2) become much more kind in my own messages and how I package/deliver them
(including NOT using names publicly or taking people to task in a public
forum. That's just not nice).

-"Verde"

 

[Fred Mertz]

LOL!

Thanks - I guess!

Truth be told... I don't think I'm creative enough to have pulled it off
like you see it. Remember, truth can be (frequently is) stranger than
fiction. I'm just a guy who got frustrated (then "ticked off") by what I saw
as rather unhelpful feedback in a separate post + an industry that
increasingly places value on CS degrees and the type of knowledge such
programs offer. So I was really wondering the value of the degree as stated
in the OP, believe it or not.

-"Verde"

 

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

Hi Cor,

Nick,

I agree with your message, but is it not much simpler to tell.

As manager, what is than easier to tell to his/here manager as the
guy/girl does not fit in the place as it should be than: "How could I know
that he/she is so lousy, he/she has such good papers?

And with that the manager protect him/her self.

Therefore alone these papers have already value.

This goes only for a number of times and until a certain level by the way.

)

Cor

This is brilliant and something that I just hadn't taken the time to
consider. You are correct that the college degree does offer some semblence
of 'cover' for a hiring manager. It is a risk to hire someone. If that
person is not a good choice, then a college degree does offer a little bit
of cover to say "but their papers are good."

On the other hand, it is a fairly thin excuse if the person has been working
for that manager or that company for longer than about six months. That's
because we expect that a manager (that is any good) will have discovered the
true talents (or lack thereof) within that timeframe and would have
mitigated their mistake.

Thanks,
--- Nick

 

[Nick Malik [Microsoft]]

Hello Kevin,

I suppose I would only emphasize that, while a degree provides a generally
reliable and effective measuring tool, as far as the employer is
concerned, that it is by far not the only, nor the best measuring tool
available, and that for the individual seeking to make a career of
programming, it is ultimately perseverance, diligence, dedication to
excellence, and self-motivation that prove to be of the greatest value
overall in the long run.

I agree with this for programming or any other endeavor of value.

I hope that you have not taken any of my comments to be a negative
reflection on you or your valuable contribution to this board or to the
programming community. I recognize and salute all MVPs and I understand the
dedication and perseverance that goes with this (unpaid) position. I was an
MVP for three years (many moons ago, before Microsoft). I've rarely met a
more dedicated, creative, and down-to-earth bunch of folks in my life. If
you ever to find yourself in Redmond, drop me a line and let me buy you a
latte.


--
--- Nick Malik [Microsoft]
MCSD, CFPS, Certified Scrummaster
http://blogs.msdn.com/nickmalik

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this forum are my own, and not
representative of my employer.
I do not answer questions on behalf of my employer. I'm just a
programmer helping programmers.
--

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Hi Nick,

I hope that you have not taken any of my comments to be a negative

Not at all! This has been a productive discussion from which I hope everyone
reading it can gain some insight.

If you ever to find yourself in Redmond, drop me a line and let me buy you a
latte.

I'll hold you to that! ;-)

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull

Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.