V
Verde
What is the real-world value of having a university degree in computer
science?
science?
M
Marina Levit [MVP]
Heh, you want a dollar amount?
My feeling is that in this industry, experience and knowledge is far more
important then having a degree. However, while getting a degree people often
pick up skills that make them better programmers - although in reality, you
do most of your learning on the job. And if you are starting at entry level,
someone with a degree and no experience is going to be preferred then
someone without either.
If your question is whether or not you should pursue a degree in CS, then I
don't think anyone here can answer that for you.
My feeling is that in this industry, experience and knowledge is far more
important then having a degree. However, while getting a degree people often
pick up skills that make them better programmers - although in reality, you
do most of your learning on the job. And if you are starting at entry level,
someone with a degree and no experience is going to be preferred then
someone without either.
If your question is whether or not you should pursue a degree in CS, then I
don't think anyone here can answer that for you.
V
Vijay
A CS degree from a elitee school can land u a job in top companies... so
that helps...
VJ
that helps...
VJ
B
Bruce Wood
In terms of dollars, it really depends upon the people hiring you,
whether they see that degree as valuable.
In my 20+ years programming, I've noticed two things about having
university degrees.
The first is that programmers with degrees tend to understand better
the theory behind _why_ some particular programming practice is good or
bad. Graduates of technical schools or self-taught programmers tend to
know what to do, but not necessarily why they're doing it. For
employers interested in a long-term investment in a programmer, that
counts for something.
However, tech school graduates and self-taught people generally know
the "plumbing" of a particular language or tool better than university
grads, so their short-term value is higher, as it were.
[BTW, before I'm flamed to death, there are of course many exceptions.
I have a friend who is self-taught who can blow the doors off most
university graduates: he understands the "how" and the "why". I also
knew some truly mediocre people in university. I'm talking general
trends and perceptions here, not universal rules.]
The second difference is that a degree allows your employer to pay you
more _if they want to_. For example, after I was hired for one job
years ago, one of the long-time team members complained to our boss:
"How come he makes more than I do, and I've been here for years?" My
boss's answer: "He has a degree. You don't." It was B.S.: the truth was
that my coworker was a good coding grunt but not a good designer. The
only thing the degree did was give our boss an excuse to do what he
wanted to do anyway.
Will a university degree open doors for you and result in fabulous
wealth? No, but in subtle ways it can make your road smoother and, yes,
bring monetary rewards.
If I could do it all again, I wouldn't get a university degree: I would
become a union longshoreman and make 50% more than I'm making now with
half the stress. However, if I were stuck with being a programmer, I
certainly would go for the degree. ;-)
whether they see that degree as valuable.
In my 20+ years programming, I've noticed two things about having
university degrees.
The first is that programmers with degrees tend to understand better
the theory behind _why_ some particular programming practice is good or
bad. Graduates of technical schools or self-taught programmers tend to
know what to do, but not necessarily why they're doing it. For
employers interested in a long-term investment in a programmer, that
counts for something.
However, tech school graduates and self-taught people generally know
the "plumbing" of a particular language or tool better than university
grads, so their short-term value is higher, as it were.
[BTW, before I'm flamed to death, there are of course many exceptions.
I have a friend who is self-taught who can blow the doors off most
university graduates: he understands the "how" and the "why". I also
knew some truly mediocre people in university. I'm talking general
trends and perceptions here, not universal rules.]
The second difference is that a degree allows your employer to pay you
more _if they want to_. For example, after I was hired for one job
years ago, one of the long-time team members complained to our boss:
"How come he makes more than I do, and I've been here for years?" My
boss's answer: "He has a degree. You don't." It was B.S.: the truth was
that my coworker was a good coding grunt but not a good designer. The
only thing the degree did was give our boss an excuse to do what he
wanted to do anyway.
Will a university degree open doors for you and result in fabulous
wealth? No, but in subtle ways it can make your road smoother and, yes,
bring monetary rewards.
If I could do it all again, I wouldn't get a university degree: I would
become a union longshoreman and make 50% more than I'm making now with
half the stress. However, if I were stuck with being a programmer, I
certainly would go for the degree. ;-)
R
randolpho
I agree with much of what Bruce Wood has to say. A CS degree allows a
programmer to understand complex theories that self-taught programmers
often just "don't get". On the other hand, you can only really
understand computers and programming through experience. A CS degree
merely enhances that experience in many ways.
I'll give an example: database normalization.
A green CS student is highly likely to over-normalize his database. On
thedailywtf.com, for example, I've seen cases where a database is so
normalized that possible boolean values on a field were extracted out
into another table with two rows: yes and no.
On the other hand, an entirely self-taught programmer is highly
unlikely to know what normalization even *is*, let alone when to stop.
His database is likely to be a single table with a hundred fields.
Only through experience can you know that over-normalization can lead
to database bloat and performance problems. Only through training can
you know that normalization is a good thing. Between the two, the best
database can be achieved.
It's not just database normalization; CS training is good for other
things, like software engineering, functional breakdown, object
oriented analysis, parsing techniques, AI, HMI.
Experience *and* a degree is usually the best route. That's the reason
my signature phrase is "Autodidactic programmer with a computer science
degree."
programmer to understand complex theories that self-taught programmers
often just "don't get". On the other hand, you can only really
understand computers and programming through experience. A CS degree
merely enhances that experience in many ways.
I'll give an example: database normalization.
A green CS student is highly likely to over-normalize his database. On
thedailywtf.com, for example, I've seen cases where a database is so
normalized that possible boolean values on a field were extracted out
into another table with two rows: yes and no.
On the other hand, an entirely self-taught programmer is highly
unlikely to know what normalization even *is*, let alone when to stop.
His database is likely to be a single table with a hundred fields.
Only through experience can you know that over-normalization can lead
to database bloat and performance problems. Only through training can
you know that normalization is a good thing. Between the two, the best
database can be achieved.
It's not just database normalization; CS training is good for other
things, like software engineering, functional breakdown, object
oriented analysis, parsing techniques, AI, HMI.
Experience *and* a degree is usually the best route. That's the reason
my signature phrase is "Autodidactic programmer with a computer science
degree."
D
dotnetchic
My CS degree opened doors for me that would never have existed
otherwise. I knew what I wanted to do, and I was a decent programmer
before I ever went to college. But without a BS in CS, I never would
have made it to where I am today. I've been the tester, the code
grunt, and I paid my dues, including the four years of higher partying,
er, education. And now I am designer, consultant, and pretty much
schedule my own life.
-My $.02, for a female perspective.
otherwise. I knew what I wanted to do, and I was a decent programmer
before I ever went to college. But without a BS in CS, I never would
have made it to where I am today. I've been the tester, the code
grunt, and I paid my dues, including the four years of higher partying,
er, education. And now I am designer, consultant, and pretty much
schedule my own life.
-My $.02, for a female perspective.
G
Guest
What is the real-world value of having a university degree in computer
It's not the _having_ it's the _getting_.
A) You gain experience _before_ you need it. Generally from people who've
been at it for a while.
B) You learn _concepts_ that can be applied to many varied problems.
C) You can continue to live with your parents for a while longer.
D) You meet girls.
It's not the _having_ it's the _getting_.
A) You gain experience _before_ you need it. Generally from people who've
been at it for a while.
B) You learn _concepts_ that can be applied to many varied problems.
C) You can continue to live with your parents for a while longer.
D) You meet girls.
M
Marina Levit [MVP]
Meeting girls should not be a motivation to go into CS - that's maybe 10% of
the student body in CS class. Maybe 20% if you are lucky.
the student body in CS class. Maybe 20% if you are lucky.
G
Guest
Meeting girls should not be a motivation to go into CS - that's maybe 10% of
Yes, but that 10%...
the student body in CS class. Maybe 20% if you are lucky.
Yes, but that 10%...
J
JaredHite1
I have to disagree with PieBald on all 4:
A. You don't gain experience at a university...You learn how to learn,
and you learn background that will help you understand things better,
but that's not the same as experience. And the "before you need it" is
a bit circular, since the only reason you don't need it is because you
aren't in the work force, and the only reason you're not in the work
force is because you're in school!
B. You learn concepts that can be applied to many problems...This is
true. Unfortunately, most of those concepts and most of those problems
won't need to be solved in your average coding job. Sure, every now
and then you'll remember something from school you can use, but those
times are few and far between.
C. I would rather have gotten a job and moved out a little
sooner...
D. Are you crazy? I can think of one hottie in all my CS classes (Ah
the russian beauty Maria...How I yearned.) Even other branches of
engineering have hotter chicks than CS (no offense to dotnetchic...I'm
sure you're smokin') Go for nutritional science or elementary ed for
the babes.
I graduated 2 years ago with a degree in computer systems engineering
from ASU...Here are some of my conclusions after being in the workforce
a while:
1. For most regular jobs with non-software/hardware designing
companies, you almost never use anything you learned in school. I've
never had to code a linked list, use lambda calculus, relational
algebra, solve a system of equations, calculate momentum transferred
after a static collision, apply the theory of relativity, or determine
the amount of load on a truss in my day to day job. However, ASU saw
fit to spend years of my valuable time doing all those things anyway.
2. I enjoy the more technical and mathematical side of programming,
and I do create projects on my own time that use lambda calculus,
linked lists, solve a system of equations, and calculate momentum
transferred after a static equation. As yet, no programs dealing with
trusses or relativity. So far, nobody's paid me for it, but I enjoy it
nonetheless and hope to come out with a useful product some day, on
whose revenue I will happily retire.
3. Some employers, bless their hearts, don't know that ASU wasted my
time teaching me idiotic things that won't help me in their business,
so they value my degree anyway. My degree has helped me get some jobs
from those people.
4. Other employers even care about how well I can calculate momentum
transferred after static and nonstatic collisions, so they even have
minimum GPAs to apply (You'll see that in the big guys like honeywell,
motorola, etc.) I usually meet the minimum GPA of 2.8, but I don't
want to work for anybody who is stupid enough to believe in GPAs
anyways, so I don't bother with those companies, just like I do the
ones that require 5 years Windows Server 2003 experience.
5. Most employers care a lot more about experience, my teamwork
skills, and my work ethic than my degree or my GPA. Except for my
first job, no one has ever asked me anything in an interview about my
education.
Given that I could have spent the 6.5 years and $10,000 in tuition and
books it took me to get my degree learning programming on my own and
gaining real world experience, if I had to do it all over again I would
not go for the degree. If I end up making big $$$ working for a
company that requires heavy math, analytical thinking, and knowledge of
various programming algorithms and paradigms, I will probably change my
mind on that.
-Jared
A. You don't gain experience at a university...You learn how to learn,
and you learn background that will help you understand things better,
but that's not the same as experience. And the "before you need it" is
a bit circular, since the only reason you don't need it is because you
aren't in the work force, and the only reason you're not in the work
force is because you're in school!
B. You learn concepts that can be applied to many problems...This is
true. Unfortunately, most of those concepts and most of those problems
won't need to be solved in your average coding job. Sure, every now
and then you'll remember something from school you can use, but those
times are few and far between.
C. I would rather have gotten a job and moved out a little
sooner...
D. Are you crazy? I can think of one hottie in all my CS classes (Ah
the russian beauty Maria...How I yearned.) Even other branches of
engineering have hotter chicks than CS (no offense to dotnetchic...I'm
sure you're smokin') Go for nutritional science or elementary ed for
the babes.
I graduated 2 years ago with a degree in computer systems engineering
from ASU...Here are some of my conclusions after being in the workforce
a while:
1. For most regular jobs with non-software/hardware designing
companies, you almost never use anything you learned in school. I've
never had to code a linked list, use lambda calculus, relational
algebra, solve a system of equations, calculate momentum transferred
after a static collision, apply the theory of relativity, or determine
the amount of load on a truss in my day to day job. However, ASU saw
fit to spend years of my valuable time doing all those things anyway.
2. I enjoy the more technical and mathematical side of programming,
and I do create projects on my own time that use lambda calculus,
linked lists, solve a system of equations, and calculate momentum
transferred after a static equation. As yet, no programs dealing with
trusses or relativity. So far, nobody's paid me for it, but I enjoy it
nonetheless and hope to come out with a useful product some day, on
whose revenue I will happily retire.
3. Some employers, bless their hearts, don't know that ASU wasted my
time teaching me idiotic things that won't help me in their business,
so they value my degree anyway. My degree has helped me get some jobs
from those people.
4. Other employers even care about how well I can calculate momentum
transferred after static and nonstatic collisions, so they even have
minimum GPAs to apply (You'll see that in the big guys like honeywell,
motorola, etc.) I usually meet the minimum GPA of 2.8, but I don't
want to work for anybody who is stupid enough to believe in GPAs
anyways, so I don't bother with those companies, just like I do the
ones that require 5 years Windows Server 2003 experience.
5. Most employers care a lot more about experience, my teamwork
skills, and my work ethic than my degree or my GPA. Except for my
first job, no one has ever asked me anything in an interview about my
education.
Given that I could have spent the 6.5 years and $10,000 in tuition and
books it took me to get my degree learning programming on my own and
gaining real world experience, if I had to do it all over again I would
not go for the degree. If I end up making big $$$ working for a
company that requires heavy math, analytical thinking, and knowledge of
various programming algorithms and paradigms, I will probably change my
mind on that.
-Jared
G
Guest
Given that I could have spent the 6.5 years and $10,000 in tuition and
You took six years for a four year degree too? I thought I was the only one.
(And daddy paid the tuition.)
Anyway, there's more to this discussion than what we've said so far too;
A) Today's tools and frameworks make programming much easier (they
encapsulate decades of experience).
B) Forums (fora?) like this one make accessing seasoned experts much easier
as well.
C) Online help and IDEs also enable the newbie to learn a language more
quickly.
D) The offshoot to this is that lesser-skilled practitioners can write code
quicker and easier to produce results of higher quality than they could have
a decade ago.
This is all good, but a downside is that even a new BSCS holder may not be
of the caliber of one a decade ago. Leading some (my brother-in-law included)
to require a Masters degree.
You took six years for a four year degree too? I thought I was the only one.
(And daddy paid the tuition.)
Anyway, there's more to this discussion than what we've said so far too;
A) Today's tools and frameworks make programming much easier (they
encapsulate decades of experience).
B) Forums (fora?) like this one make accessing seasoned experts much easier
as well.
C) Online help and IDEs also enable the newbie to learn a language more
quickly.
D) The offshoot to this is that lesser-skilled practitioners can write code
quicker and easier to produce results of higher quality than they could have
a decade ago.
This is all good, but a downside is that even a new BSCS holder may not be
of the caliber of one a decade ago. Leading some (my brother-in-law included)
to require a Masters degree.
S
Stefan
Hi,
I would have to agree with Bruce as well, I have a two (2) year diploma
from a Polytechnic Institute (British Columbia Institute of Technology).
I write beautiful code and understand all the complex issues behind the
theory from my education. Although my education focused more on learning
the language, lifecycle, and oop principles.
The one thing I find is that I will hit a glass clieng once my
experience reaches a certain level and will have a harder time getting
the more lucrative jobs such as Architect or Designer.
Happy Coding,
Stefan
C# GURU
www.DotNETovation.com
"You always have to look beyond the horizon and can never be complacent
-- God forbid we become complacent."
Jozef Straus
I would have to agree with Bruce as well, I have a two (2) year diploma
from a Polytechnic Institute (British Columbia Institute of Technology).
I write beautiful code and understand all the complex issues behind the
theory from my education. Although my education focused more on learning
the language, lifecycle, and oop principles.
The one thing I find is that I will hit a glass clieng once my
experience reaches a certain level and will have a harder time getting
the more lucrative jobs such as Architect or Designer.
Happy Coding,
Stefan
C# GURU
www.DotNETovation.com
"You always have to look beyond the horizon and can never be complacent
-- God forbid we become complacent."
Jozef Straus
C
clintonG
Bruce,
Working as a longshoreman will get you nothing but immediate gratification
until the Mexicans show up.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
Working as a longshoreman will get you nothing but immediate gratification
until the Mexicans show up.
<%= Clinton Gallagher
B
Bruce Wood
Oooh... you've never been to Vancouver, have you? The unions here have
the docks locked up tighter than a drum. The only Mexicans working our
docks carry union cards.
My grandfather was in charge of all of the rail rolling stock in
Western Canada. My uncle got a job picking up junk off the port docks.
Uncle used to hide his paycheque from grandfather because it
embarrassed him to make more at menial labour than his father did in
railway management.
No... the a guy who works the docks here has a modest home in East Van
(paid for), a cabin on one of the islands (paid for), and a small boat.
I have a Geo Metro and a condo.
The good part is that I don't get wet when it rains, and it rains a lot
here.
the docks locked up tighter than a drum. The only Mexicans working our
docks carry union cards.
My grandfather was in charge of all of the rail rolling stock in
Western Canada. My uncle got a job picking up junk off the port docks.
Uncle used to hide his paycheque from grandfather because it
embarrassed him to make more at menial labour than his father did in
railway management.
No... the a guy who works the docks here has a modest home in East Van
(paid for), a cabin on one of the islands (paid for), and a small boat.
I have a Geo Metro and a condo.
The good part is that I don't get wet when it rains, and it rains a lot
here.
B
Bruce Wood
That's what the mandatory Arts credit is for....
C
Charles Law
What's a "longshoreman"?
Charles (UK)
Charles (UK)
clintonG said:
K
Kevin Spencer
I think Bruce makes some good points. I'm not going to disagree, but one of
my strengths in problem-solving is my ability to look beyond the question
asked to the information needed, so I'll address that issue.
The question asked was: "What is the real-world value of having a university
degree in computer science?"
The information needed is more along the lines of:
1. How can I get a good-paying job as a programmer?
2. Should I become a programmer?
Number 2 is important to ask, because it addresses the motivation behind the
query. In the process of development, a common mistake is to spend a lot of
time on a solution that addresses the wrong issue, and therefore never works
out. It becomes necessary at some point to backpedal to a point where the
solution began to diverge from the actual requirement, and restart from
there.
In this case, the actual requirement would be best expressed as "I am at a
point in my life where I need to decide upon a (new) career, for one reason
or another. I am considering programming as a career. Should I become a
programmer, and if so, what is the best career path for me to embark upon?
If not, what *should* I choose?
Of course, I can't answer the last question, but I can help with the first
(number 2 in my list, but the first question to consider). Programming is a
lucrative career, but only one of many possible lucrative careers.
Therefore, money is not the primary issue in terms of deciding upon
programming as a career. In addition, as Bruce eloquently pointed out,
programming can be and often is a very high-stress career. It demands a
great deal of one's time. If you're expecting a 40-hour work week, you might
as well look elsewhere. It involves deadlines, and the challenge of
balancing available time and resources against quality, stability, and
features. It is generally expected that you will produce more than you
possibly can in a given amount of time with a given amount of resources.
This is because only programmers really understand what it takes to write
good software, and software, like an iceberg, is about 95% unseen by the end
user. Murphy is a programmer's constant companion. You will constantly
encounter problems you've never seen before, and from time to time get
horribly bogged down in the process. There's little glory in the job, but a
lot of hard work.
In addition, it has the effect of making you increasingly socially inept
with anyone but other computer professionals. Computers don't think like
people do, and to get good at it, you have to train yourself to think like a
computer. If you want to make a good living, you will have to get good at
it, or be very very lucky.
Programming is a game in which the rules change faster than any other game
you've ever played. This is largely due to Moore's Law, and the associated
effects of the fact that computers are what is chiefly used to develop
computers, and software is what is chiefly used to develop software. New
technology is constantly springing out, at an ever-increasing rate. This
means that you will probably spend more time reading technical documents and
articles than anyone in any other profession. Once you stop, your career is
probably over.
So, if you think you want to become a programmer, you really need to ask
yourself this question: Do I *enjoy* writing software? Because if you don't,
you will be a very unhappy camper. The best developers are people who get
excited about creating software, love to do puzzles, and solve complex
problems. In other words, it is a love-hate relationship, and it always will
be. It will rob you of your time, your social life, and your youth. But if
you enjoy doing it, you will excel at it, be happy, and prosper.
So, in answer to the first (original) question, regarding the efficacy of
getting a degree in computer science in order to get into the business,
well, it won't hurt (an may help) to get your foot in the door. You may
actually enjoy the process, and if you don't, you will find out that
programming is not your bag before you waste too much time trying to get
into it. However, there is no substitute for experience (which, contrary to
most jobs, you don't need to have a job in order to get), creativity, and a
love of problem-solving, math, science, and logic. It is entirely possible
to prosper in this business with no degree, as long as you have plenty of
the other, more important requirements. On the other hand, a degree will do
you no good whatsoever without the other requirements.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull
Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.
my strengths in problem-solving is my ability to look beyond the question
asked to the information needed, so I'll address that issue.
The question asked was: "What is the real-world value of having a university
degree in computer science?"
The information needed is more along the lines of:
1. How can I get a good-paying job as a programmer?
2. Should I become a programmer?
Number 2 is important to ask, because it addresses the motivation behind the
query. In the process of development, a common mistake is to spend a lot of
time on a solution that addresses the wrong issue, and therefore never works
out. It becomes necessary at some point to backpedal to a point where the
solution began to diverge from the actual requirement, and restart from
there.
In this case, the actual requirement would be best expressed as "I am at a
point in my life where I need to decide upon a (new) career, for one reason
or another. I am considering programming as a career. Should I become a
programmer, and if so, what is the best career path for me to embark upon?
If not, what *should* I choose?
Of course, I can't answer the last question, but I can help with the first
(number 2 in my list, but the first question to consider). Programming is a
lucrative career, but only one of many possible lucrative careers.
Therefore, money is not the primary issue in terms of deciding upon
programming as a career. In addition, as Bruce eloquently pointed out,
programming can be and often is a very high-stress career. It demands a
great deal of one's time. If you're expecting a 40-hour work week, you might
as well look elsewhere. It involves deadlines, and the challenge of
balancing available time and resources against quality, stability, and
features. It is generally expected that you will produce more than you
possibly can in a given amount of time with a given amount of resources.
This is because only programmers really understand what it takes to write
good software, and software, like an iceberg, is about 95% unseen by the end
user. Murphy is a programmer's constant companion. You will constantly
encounter problems you've never seen before, and from time to time get
horribly bogged down in the process. There's little glory in the job, but a
lot of hard work.
In addition, it has the effect of making you increasingly socially inept
with anyone but other computer professionals. Computers don't think like
people do, and to get good at it, you have to train yourself to think like a
computer. If you want to make a good living, you will have to get good at
it, or be very very lucky.
Programming is a game in which the rules change faster than any other game
you've ever played. This is largely due to Moore's Law, and the associated
effects of the fact that computers are what is chiefly used to develop
computers, and software is what is chiefly used to develop software. New
technology is constantly springing out, at an ever-increasing rate. This
means that you will probably spend more time reading technical documents and
articles than anyone in any other profession. Once you stop, your career is
probably over.
So, if you think you want to become a programmer, you really need to ask
yourself this question: Do I *enjoy* writing software? Because if you don't,
you will be a very unhappy camper. The best developers are people who get
excited about creating software, love to do puzzles, and solve complex
problems. In other words, it is a love-hate relationship, and it always will
be. It will rob you of your time, your social life, and your youth. But if
you enjoy doing it, you will excel at it, be happy, and prosper.
So, in answer to the first (original) question, regarding the efficacy of
getting a degree in computer science in order to get into the business,
well, it won't hurt (an may help) to get your foot in the door. You may
actually enjoy the process, and if you don't, you will find out that
programming is not your bag before you waste too much time trying to get
into it. However, there is no substitute for experience (which, contrary to
most jobs, you don't need to have a job in order to get), creativity, and a
love of problem-solving, math, science, and logic. It is entirely possible
to prosper in this business with no degree, as long as you have plenty of
the other, more important requirements. On the other hand, a degree will do
you no good whatsoever without the other requirements.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
Professional Numbskull
Show me your certification without works,
and I'll show my certification
*by* my works.
Bruce Wood said:
V
Verde
Great response Kevin ... and just like you to go the extra mile and give a
thorough and insightful response (truly the stuff of a real MVP):
Now...
RE:
<< The information needed is more along the lines of: 1. How can I get a
good-paying job as a programmer? 2. Should I become a programmer? >>
Those are valid and likely inferences from the somewhat vague (and
intentionally so) OP. I can add a #3 to your list (which is also the one I
was "really" thinking when I wrote the OP): And that is, "how would having a
degree in computer science make me write better code today." This #3 assumes
or requires that the "real world" in the OP is narrowly defined as "me
working on a real-world software project."
I left the question intentionally vague (as opposed to combining it with #3)
because there are guys like Jon Skeet floating around (not to pick on him or
flame him in any way) with degrees in computer science who seem to place a
lot of value on it and tend to give those of us without that "why" knowledge
a hard time or address our "dumb" questions in a condescending way. I just
wanted some more insight into their thinking so I can deal more effectively
with that mindset when I roll into future interviews. I posted the OP and
made it somewhat vague because I wanted to get opinions on the value of CS
degrees beyond simply writing better code or designing better architectures.
Plus, if that was the overwhelming perceived value, then I'd expect a bunch
of "geeze dude, CS obviously helps you to write better code..." kinds of
responses.
Finally, 12 years ago when I was considering getting a degree in CS (I was
already working as a programmer at the time - although junior level stuff),
I talked to department chairs at two universities plus a tenured CS
professor. All of them independently give me the same advice - do NOT come
back to school for a degree in CS. The reason was consistent as well: "We
don't offer the type of knowledge you need to be successful in today's
marketplace." I was quite surprised and when pressed for further explanation
the department chair (University of California) told me that in order to be
successful in the workplace one must understand and be proficient with the
current technologies of the day. He proceeded with the example that it takes
him at least a year and a half to get a new course through the curriculum
committee. So if he wanted to teach classes on current technologies, it
would be nearly impossible. Say one day the world doesn't know about C++ -
then MS unveils it for the first time. It would be about 2 years before he
could teach any C++ courses. This coming from the department chair himself.
Thanks to everyone in the thread for the dialog. It's helpful to get a
sampling of responses from people like yourselves who are "in the trenches".
Remember, the question (OP) was not "IS" the degree valuable, it's "How" is
it valuable... clearly ASSUMING that a degree in CS IS in fact valuable.
-"Verde"
thorough and insightful response (truly the stuff of a real MVP):
Now...
RE:
<< The information needed is more along the lines of: 1. How can I get a
good-paying job as a programmer? 2. Should I become a programmer? >>
Those are valid and likely inferences from the somewhat vague (and
intentionally so) OP. I can add a #3 to your list (which is also the one I
was "really" thinking when I wrote the OP): And that is, "how would having a
degree in computer science make me write better code today." This #3 assumes
or requires that the "real world" in the OP is narrowly defined as "me
working on a real-world software project."
I left the question intentionally vague (as opposed to combining it with #3)
because there are guys like Jon Skeet floating around (not to pick on him or
flame him in any way) with degrees in computer science who seem to place a
lot of value on it and tend to give those of us without that "why" knowledge
a hard time or address our "dumb" questions in a condescending way. I just
wanted some more insight into their thinking so I can deal more effectively
with that mindset when I roll into future interviews. I posted the OP and
made it somewhat vague because I wanted to get opinions on the value of CS
degrees beyond simply writing better code or designing better architectures.
Plus, if that was the overwhelming perceived value, then I'd expect a bunch
of "geeze dude, CS obviously helps you to write better code..." kinds of
responses.
Finally, 12 years ago when I was considering getting a degree in CS (I was
already working as a programmer at the time - although junior level stuff),
I talked to department chairs at two universities plus a tenured CS
professor. All of them independently give me the same advice - do NOT come
back to school for a degree in CS. The reason was consistent as well: "We
don't offer the type of knowledge you need to be successful in today's
marketplace." I was quite surprised and when pressed for further explanation
the department chair (University of California) told me that in order to be
successful in the workplace one must understand and be proficient with the
current technologies of the day. He proceeded with the example that it takes
him at least a year and a half to get a new course through the curriculum
committee. So if he wanted to teach classes on current technologies, it
would be nearly impossible. Say one day the world doesn't know about C++ -
then MS unveils it for the first time. It would be about 2 years before he
could teach any C++ courses. This coming from the department chair himself.
Thanks to everyone in the thread for the dialog. It's helpful to get a
sampling of responses from people like yourselves who are "in the trenches".
Remember, the question (OP) was not "IS" the degree valuable, it's "How" is
it valuable... clearly ASSUMING that a degree in CS IS in fact valuable.
-"Verde"
Kevin Spencer said:
J
Jon Skeet [C# MVP]
I'm sorry you feel that way. I can't remember ever having a go at
someone because they don't have a CS degree, nor bragging because of my
own (which was only a one year diploma, I should add - my main degree
was in maths). I don't place an awful lot of value on my CS diploma -
it taught me a fair amount of computer science, but pretty much nothing
about object orientation or any of the other things I find useful in
day-to-day life.
Where I *do* know I sometimes come across as impatient/condescending
is:
1) People asking "advanced" questions when they don't understand the
basics - and showing no inclination to learn those basics when
prompted.
2) People who insist on using incorrect terminology even after being
corrected (with explanations).
3) People who are incapable of writing short but complete programs
which demonstrate problems, particularly those who *claim* that they've
posted a complete program when in fact they've clearly only posted a
snippet.
If you could give other examples of where I've been condescending, I
would be happy to try to improve my attitude. I don't think it's
entirely unreasonable to ask people to meet me half way when I'm
helping them though (which is pretty much what those three points above
are about).
Perhaps you're not keen on me answering posts with a single link? That
tends to happen when I've taken more time to write up a topic
thoroughly than I could reasonably spend answering each post about that
topic - it's much more efficient to work that way. If you view that as
condescending, maybe you could suggest a form of words to post along
with the link which would help. (That may not be your issue at all, of
course.)
B
Brian Gideon
Verde said:
To be honest I haven't noticed that Jon answers questions in a
condescending way. And when I've given incorrect advice in the past he
has corrected me, but I never felt belittled by it. It's just part of
the learning process.