OT: Language translation

[Michael Bray]

Sorry for the off-topic post, I couldn't think of where else to send this
question, and web searches have been woefully ineffective.

I write an commercial application that is translated into 15 or 20 other
languages. Up until this point, we have paid a professional translation
company to do this, with mixed results. However, as the project has gotten
larger, the cost is now becoming preventative due to overhead that they
charge for proofreading, engineering, project management, etc... I could
probably do most of that myself.

My brother once sent me an URL to a site that appeared to allow you to
request translations for phrases from people that you pay via the site, but
there were no overhead charges, but he can't remember what it was.
Searching the web for things like "software translation" only seems to
bring up professional companies and all of the automated phrase translation
sites. The important thing is that I want a human being to do the
translation, NOT an automatic translator such as Babelfish.

So ideally, what I'm looking for is a web site with the following features:
- Allows me to create a project
- Lets me enter phrases that I want translated
- Allows me to specify what languages I want it translated into
- Will maintain the project and translations long-term (for future
modifications)
- Has a human as the primary translation source, ideally ones that have
been "verified" as reliable translators (via feedback from other users,
etc)
- Is "relatively" inexpensive

And I could list a hundred other "wants" but these are the basic things I'm
looking for... Any help? even to suggest another newsgroup or other
resource to look in?

TIA!

-mdb

 

[Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]]

Michael,

Have you googled "language translation services"? I think that is what
you really want, not necessarily "software translation". I mean, a
correctly written piece of software will prevent a translator from having to
touch any of the code. If anything, you should put the translations into
the app. Looking specifically for "software translation" is going to limit
your options, when in reality, you are looking for a much more generic
service.

 

[Larry Smith]

I'm working on my own commercial translation program that will be available
fairly soon (in the coming months). I believe most VS developers as well as
translators will appreciate just how easy it makes the process (first
shameless plug). Version 1 will only handle the basics (".resx" files
really) but I also need to translate my own program which I'll do using
itself. I intend to simply go to a local University however and get one or
more students to do it. Someone majoring in languages will probably do as
good a job as a so-called professional and for much cheaper. I'll
incorporate the translated text myself so there's no need for someone with
technical skills (who can build a ".chm" file for instance). You might want
to consider this idea also. You can correspond with them by email. Moreover,
I don't believe there's any good reason to have someone store these strings
for you. Once translated, they'll already be stored in your app. Programs
are always in a state of flux anyway so it's better to rely on your source
code rather than some unreliable copy you're paying someone to manage. Just
my two cents.

 

[Michael A. Covington]

I'm working on my own commercial translation program that will be
available fairly soon (in the coming months). I believe most VS developers
as well as translators will appreciate just how easy it makes the process
(first shameless plug). Version 1 will only handle the basics (".resx"
files really) but I also need to translate my own program which I'll do
using itself. I intend to simply go to a local University however and get
one or more students to do it. Someone majoring in languages will probably
do as good a job as a so-called professional and for much cheaper. I'll
incorporate the translated text myself so there's no need for someone with
technical skills (who can build a ".chm" file for instance).

Whoa there. Do you expect an undergraduate Spanish major to know the
technical terminology of software in Spanish, when even native speakers
often don't?

To translate the messages, menus, etc., of a computer program, a person must
not only know the language in general, but also must know the application
area and how to talk about it in the desired language.

 

[Larry Smith]

Whoa there. Do you expect an undergraduate Spanish major to know the

technical terminology of software in Spanish, when even native speakers
often don't?

To translate the messages, menus, etc., of a computer program, a person
must not only know the language in general, but also must know the
application area and how to talk about it in the desired language.

That may be true in some limited cases but I believe most translation is
routine. You don't need a technical guru to translate dialog text like
"Cancel", "OK", "Save as", etc. That applies to most of the other things
you'll see in a typical dialog. Error messages, other internal strings and
even online help aren't much different. A student who's fluent in both the
source and target languages should be able to do a reasonable job even if
some assistance is periodically required.

 

[Michael Bray]

Have you googled "language translation services"? I think that is
what
you really want, not necessarily "software translation". I mean, a
correctly written piece of software will prevent a translator from
having to touch any of the code. If anything, you should put the
translations into the app. Looking specifically for "software
translation" is going to limit your options, when in reality, you are
looking for a much more generic service.

The translations are in the app using standard VS2005 mechanisms, but there
are so many that if I had to do them one by one, that would be a problem
too. True this doesn't specifically have anything to do with software, but
I would certainly need a tool where I can upload a resx file or something
like that and they would know what to do with it.

Taking the word 'software' out of the google search did produce a few
additional possibilities, but still mostly leads me mainly to meta-search
engines ("find a translator") or "professional translation services" such
as the one I'm currently using. I agree 100% that they shouldn't have to
see the code, and if I implied that I didn't mean to. Typically I send
them the resx files and they send them back to me, which is fine, except
they charge for all these extra things that aren't directly related to
translation, which is what I'm really trying to avoid (eg I need to reduce
the cost of performing the translation.) Currently, the cost of actual
translation is only 20% of the total cost.

What I'm hoping for is a bare-bones (in terms of cost, not accuracy of the
translation nor functionality of the site) site that I can easily upload
things to be translated and get them translated.

-mdb

 

[jrox6279]

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but http://www.freetranslation.com/
will allow you to request translations by a human.

 

[Michael Bray]

I'm working on my own commercial translation program that will be
available fairly soon (in the coming months). I believe most VS
developers as well as translators will appreciate just how easy it
makes the process (first shameless plug). Version 1 will only handle
the basics (".resx" files really) but I also need to translate my own
program which I'll do using itself. I intend to simply go to a local
University however and get one or more students to do it. Someone
majoring in languages will probably do as good a job as a so-called
professional and for much cheaper. I'll incorporate the translated
text myself so there's no need for someone with technical skills (who
can build a ".chm" file for instance). You might want to consider this
idea also. You can correspond with them by email. Moreover, I don't
believe there's any good reason to have someone store these strings
for you. Once translated, they'll already be stored in your app.
Programs are always in a state of flux anyway so it's better to rely
on your source code rather than some unreliable copy you're paying
someone to manage. Just my two cents.

Yeah I've considered writing my own dream-translation-site as well... I'm
just not sure where I would find translators, and I have an immediate need
for it. It would probably have to start via word of mouth and hopefully
evolve into a monster where everyone around the world wanted to be a
translator. I'm not sure, however, that I would want someone that wasn't a
native speaker.

-mdb

 

[Michael Bray]

(e-mail address removed) wrote in

I don't know if this is what you are looking for, but
http://www.freetranslation.com/ will allow you to request translations
by a human.

Yes I looked at them just a while ago, but I couldn't upload all my files
because they have a limit of 20, and there's no way for me to tell whether
I would be able to specifically identify the phrases I need translated
(since I've already got 80% - 90% of my software translated from previous
version.

-mdb

 

[Fredo]

Larry,

I'm with Michael on this. As someone who speaks several languages and who
has done translations, you're likely to get very poor translations from
students of the language. I'll give Spanish as an example: Is a computer una
computadora or un ordenador? It depends on your audience. Also, basic
computer speak is not necessarily something that someone learns in Spanish
classes, even at a graduate level.

The word "O.K." is frequently used in speech in Spanish and a Spanish
student probably knows this. What they may not know is that OK buttons
aren't labeled "OK" in Spanish. They're usually labeled Aceptar. On the
other hand, "O.K." is often used in Portuguese, Italian, French, German,
Korean, and Japanese translations, among others.

There are many subtleties to translating software and your software will
appear awkward to a native speaker if it's translated by someone who isn't a
native speaker (or close to it) and doesn't have a good knowledge of the
terminology in that language. For example, if you were to take a native
speaker of the langauge who has very limited computer experience, they too,
are unlikely to know the proper vocabulary in their own language.

Anyway, you can do what you want, but I would be very suspect of the
translations you get back.

Pete

 

[Larry Smith]

I'm with Michael on this. As someone who speaks several languages and who

has done translations, you're likely to get very poor translations from
students of the language.

To clarify, I'm not looking for students of the language. I would never
trust them. What I am looking for are language students who are already
fluent in the language (from birth or a very early age). There's a big
difference and I'll be screening for this.

I'll give Spanish as an example: Is a computer una computadora or un
ordenador? It depends on your audience. Also, basic computer speak is not
necessarily something that someone learns in Spanish classes, even at a
graduate level.

You don't have to be a computer junkie to translate most of what you see on
a typical dialog. Most students are savvy enough on Windows and can
translate most of what they see. However ...

The word "O.K." is frequently used in speech in Spanish and a Spanish
student probably knows this. What they may not know is that OK buttons
aren't labeled "OK" in Spanish. They're usually labeled Aceptar. On the
other hand, "O.K." is often used in Portuguese, Italian, French, German,
Korean, and Japanese translations, among others.

I agree there will almost certainly be some issues. However, I can find most
of the standard terminology like OK on my own. Most of the other things will
be specific to my app so there is no standard. The student can set the
standard for me since a simple translation that's understood by native
speakers is all that's really required. The student will be aware that many
of these terms are going to appear on a dialog so I can likely rely on their
judgment within reason. It doesn't take a expert in most cases even if some
mistakes are made along the way. Even many "professionals" will screw things
up as I know from first-hand experience.

There are many subtleties to translating software and your software will
appear awkward to a native speaker if it's translated by someone who isn't
a native speaker (or close to it) and doesn't have a good knowledge of the
terminology in that language. For example, if you were to take a native
speaker of the langauge who has very limited computer experience, they
too, are unlikely to know the proper vocabulary in their own language.

Again, I am looking for native speakers and so long as they're fluent in
both languages they can almost certainly do the job. While I agree that
subleties will sometimes trip someone up, I don't see how translating most
items is all that complicated. Someone who's fluent in both languages should
be able to translate most of what they see without issue (especially using
my program which will greatly assist in the process)

 

[Mihai N.]

What I'm hoping for is a bare-bones (in terms of cost, not accuracy of the

translation nor functionality of the site) site that I can easily upload
things to be translated and get them translated.

Guaranteed crap results. Like "all your bases are belong to us"

 

[Mihai N.]

Someone majoring in languages will probably do as

good a job as a so-called professional and for much cheaper.

And someone majoring in electical engineering will probably do
as good a job as a so-called professional programmer.
Again, guaranteed low quality results.

But of course, the only difficult job is the one we do.
All the others are easy tasks that any beginner will do.

 

[Mihai N.]

To clarify, I'm not looking for students of the language. I would never

trust them. What I am looking for are language students who are already
fluent in the language (from birth or a very early age). There's a big
difference and I'll be screening for this. ....
Again, I am looking for native speakers and so long as they're fluent in
both languages they can almost certainly do the job. While I agree that
subleties will sometimes trip someone up, I don't see how translating most
items is all that complicated. Someone who's fluent in both languages
should
be able to translate most of what they see without issue (especially using
my program which will greatly assist in the process)

Absolutely wrong.
Translation is not just taking a string from language A to language B.
The result should feel to the target audience like it was written in
that language to begin with. This might mean sometimes changes in style,
(from the casuel style very popular in US to a very polite style), etc.

I have worked in localization/internationalization for about 11 years,
more than 7 directly in localization.

Good localization companies screen even professional translators.
They have a database of translators, and to get in there you pass a test,
then you translate on a small project and are edited by a senior, trusted
editor, and youy grow your "status" as you gain their trust.

Pretty much like any other job.

Imagine your manager asking you to hire a fresh graduate as professional
programmer. It's enough if the graduate tells you he can write C++,
no testing necessary. You will say that your boss has no clue.
And you are right.

Well, this is how you sound.

 

[Larry Smith]

Translation is not just taking a string from language A to language B.

The result should feel to the target audience like it was written in
that language to begin with. This might mean sometimes changes in style,
(from the casuel style very popular in US to a very polite style), etc.

I have worked in localization/internationalization for about 11 years,
more than 7 directly in localization.

Good localization companies screen even professional translators.
They have a database of translators, and to get in there you pass a test,
then you translate on a small project and are edited by a senior, trusted
editor, and youy grow your "status" as you gain their trust.

Pretty much like any other job.

Imagine your manager asking you to hire a fresh graduate as professional
programmer. It's enough if the graduate tells you he can write C++,
no testing necessary. You will say that your boss has no clue.
And you are right.

Well, this is how you sound.

Nonsense. This isn't a novel or a sensitive document where style, tone,
intonation, etc. might come into play. We're dealing with the sterile
translation of a software program. Your analogy to C++ is also absurd since
it actually does take many years to learn it. By contrast, any student whose
bright and educated and already fluent in another language can easily
translate an error message like "File {0} not found" just as well as you can
(and most other things as well). No special training is required, just a few
minor rules they need to know (for most items).

 

[Mihai N.]

Nonsense. This isn't a novel or a sensitive document where style, tone,

intonation, etc. might come into play. We're dealing with the sterile
translation of a software program. Your analogy to C++ is also absurd since
it actually does take many years to learn it. By contrast, any student whose
bright and educated and already fluent in another language can easily
translate an error message like "File {0} not found" just as well as you can
(and most other things as well). No special training is required, just a few
minor rules they need to know (for most items).

Sorry, you have no clue, I will stop here.

 

[Larry Smith]

Sorry, you have no clue, I will stop here.

You take yourself too seriously. You've magnified a relatively simple task -
translating what are mostly simple words and phrases - into an elaborate
activity that requires extensive training and experience. Since you
specialize in this area, sooner or later you're likely to come across my
program after its release in the next few months. For the most part you
won't be able to tell whether it was translated by a student or a so-called
"professional". That should be proof-enough but you'll likely still deny it.

 

[Michael Bray]

Guaranteed crap results. Like "all your bases are belong to us"

Maybe crap if they didn't screen their people, as you say in another post.
However, I wasn't at all implying that I want a free (or even a cheap)
translation. What I am looking for is one that doesn't burden me down with
the cost of their overhead (such things as "engineering" and "project
management") which was costing 3-4 times as much as the translation itself.
In other words, if person A is translating and person B is saying "Good
work here is your paycheck" I could do without person B and I'll just pay
person A directly, maybe even more than they were being paid before. A
community site can do this, if they employ the same techniques for
"trusted" translators and working your way up as the professional companies
do.

Same translation, same quality work, less price.

-mdb

 

[Mihai N.]

Maybe crap if they didn't screen their people, as you say in another post.
Usualy, as a software development company, you have no way to screen people.
Are you, or someone in your company, a trained linguist speaking all the
languages you need at native level?

However, I wasn't at all implying that I want a free (or even a cheap)
translation. What I am looking for is one that doesn't burden me down with
the cost of their overhead (such things as "engineering" and "project
management") which was costing 3-4 times as much as the translation itself.
In other words, if person A is translating and person B is saying "Good
work here is your paycheck" I could do without person B and I'll just pay
person A directly, maybe even more than they were being paid before. A

Depends what "Engineering" means. You can cut engineering, or you can
keep it.
When you translate into 30 languages and have to resize 500 dialogs per
language that engineering might become worth paying for.
Same for project management. 30 languages, 3 translators, 1 editor and
1 tester per language (medium size project) gives you 120 people.
Answering questions, sending files, scheduling, screening, deal with
one dropping out because the kid is sick, and all spread accross 5
time zones.
Setup machines with localized OS into 30 languages and assist the testers,
then implement all the linguistic feedback.
30 x 100 screen-shots on localized OS for manuals and help = 3000,
testing the help, fix and check if fix is ok.

And I have never seen this going 3-4 times the translation price.

A community site can do this, if they employ the same techniques for
"trusted" translators and working your way up as the professional companies
do.

They don't employ the same techniques.

Same translation, same quality work, less price.

Not quite.

A community site might work for a small project.
Small word cound, few languages, not many customers, no hight visibility
(so a mediocre translation can pass).
Try doing the same for a medium or big project and it does not work.
Have an article in a main technical French magazine publishing
a screen shoot of a bad translation in your application
(just one dialog out of 500) and making fun.

You can build a shed in the backyard with some friends over the week-end,
but a two story house is something else, city hall is another, and a sky
scrapper is again another level.