Online editing service for writers and publishers

[David Friedman]

For the record -- because it is important that it be stated clearly once
-- professional authors do not hire editorial services. Such services
come free, from their publishers, once the publication contract for the
book or article is signed.

There is a limited exception to that--agents. Some agents provide, among
other services, advice on how a book should be written. And authors pay
agents--with a percentage of the money they get from publishers.

One advantage of that system, of course, is that if the book doesn't
sell the agent doesn't get any money.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Given the wide variety of NGs to which this was cross-posted, I don't know
which specific one you are replying from, but the policies for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement (in which I am seeing it) and all other
NGs hosted by Microsoft can be found at
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx, specifically:

Advertising/Solicitation: These communities were created as a forum for
providing peer-to-peer assistance related to using Microsoft products and
services. We ask that you refrain from posting unsolicited advertisements
that do not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the
newsgroup or chat.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

I posted this ad about my friend's website.

I am not an editor, just a webmaster helping a firm that offers a very
good service to find writers who need their services.

Opinicus: So what makes this a scam??? The fact that it's unsolicited
commercial advertising in a public forum.

Taht makes it *spam*. It is a *potential* scam becasue many
services that use very similar descriptions *are* scams. Experience
makes such claims suspicious.

This comment seems to confuse me. My question: How private is this
"public forum"?

This is a *very* pulbic forum. It is accessible anywhere in the
world that can achieve any sort of internet access that doesn't
block it.

I thought a "public" forum was a place to discuss various topics in an
open manner. Am I wrong?

This, and the other newsgroups that comprise usenet, have charters.
These charters spell out what topics are appropriate for discussion
within them and what general ground rules should be followed. One
of the general rule of *this* forum is "no advertising". To find
out what the socail customs of a group are (which may be looser or
more restrictive that the charter and the FAQ are), one should
should read the group for a couple of weeks. less if you are very
familiar with usenet and quick on the uptake, longer if you lack
such familiarity.

I may have a little off-scope with some of the forums I placed my ad,
but it was not a random choice for placement. I was looking for forums
that might welcome such a service and this forum seemed to match my
criteria.

That's called "off topic" in newsgroups--which suggests that your
knowledge of the relevant usages is somewhat sketchy.

My friend offers help in the form of a paid online editing service.

Is your friend willing to tell an incompetent author that he is
incompetent and refuse to take his money? If not, then i for one
would question his ethics.

Oh, by the way. I believe it IS true that new authors who skip a
professional edit of their work ARE taking a big risk.

Can you name a single author that got a publishable work solely by
having an unpublishable one editted in ways that he could not do so
himself? If the answer to that question is "no", then one must also
question just what it is that such an editting service actually
*does* (other than give false hope to the self-deceived).

First, I was not spamming newsgroups! I targeted specific types of
newsgroups just right for my message. Please find fault with my
message and not where I put it! But for the record I was wrong posting
it in several news groups at the same time, and I won't do it again!

Including at least one that specifically does not want advertising!

Second, my message was not as heavy-handed as your comment implies. It
was not a threat saying, "Use an editing service or lose your ability
to get published!"

heavyhanded replies of this nature are *usually* an indication of
'Oh! No! Not *another* one!' because very very similar messages have
been posted many many times before. Remember what I said up there
about reading newsgroups *before* posting. That's one of the
reasons why you should do so.

I directed my posting to a few groups that were related to MS Word
documents. At the time, I felt it was appropriate since my friend's
editing service only works with MS Word documents.

Ha... Have you read the threads here? One of the current one is a
debate over the merits of using editors like MSWord *at*all*. The
topics under discussion on this newsgroup relate to writing
speculative fiction. The mechanics of what editor/markup
language/WYSIWYG to use get debated, but no (so far as I know) ever
uses that to determine where they might seek to get help if they
thought they needed any (at least of *that* nature).

I have used newsgroups in the past to promote my own and other
websites without having this sort of reaction occur.

Depends on what newsgroups you posted to. So groups don't mind.
Some do. This is one that does, and it has been hammered home
repeatedly. You are merely the latest in a long string of nails.

[About the dearth of authors known to have used manuscript doctors.]

I don't think those who are likely to use it will want others to know
their shortcomings. That seems to be against human nature.

have you *seen* the sorts of things that people reveal about
themselves here? Hiring an outside editting service pales beside
some revelations. You couldn't publish fiction about some people's
lives as dicussed openly here, fiction, after all, has to be
believable at some level.

--
Hal Heydt
Albany, CA

My dime, my opinions.

 

[Wilson Heydt]

Given the wide variety of NGs to which this was cross-posted, I don't know
which specific one you are replying from, but the policies for
microsoft.public.word.docmanagement (in which I am seeing it) and all other
NGs hosted by Microsoft can be found at
http://www.microsoft.com/communities/conduct/default.mspx, specifically:

Advertising/Solicitation: These communities were created as a forum for
providing peer-to-peer assistance related to using Microsoft products and
services. We ask that you refrain from posting unsolicited advertisements
that do not pertain directly to the intended use and purpose of the
newsgroup or chat.

I saw in rec.arts.sf.composition, but your post does lead to a
question....

I note that you top-posted your repoly. Is that a common custom on
the MS newsgoups?

(And for that matter, he did note that his friend would only handle
material in MSWord format, so it is at least somewhat relevant to MS
newsgroups.....)

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Top posting is common among OE users. It is the subject of much debate (and
I decline to get into it). I find it much more convenient when trying to
follow a thread that is already somewhat familiar to me (and especially when
dealing with hundreds of posts a day).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[J.Pascal]

I posted this ad about my friend's website.

I am not an editor, just a webmaster helping a firm that offers a very
good service to find writers who need their services.

A couple of people already mentioned that the groups posted
to all (it seems) have explicit policies disallowing
advertisements.

I probably ought not, but I wanted to respond to a couple
of comments that were directed toward me.

(...)

J.Pascal: Making money off of people's insecurities is kinda low in
any case, even when it isn't properly a "scam." If you look at the ad
it clearly suggests that a new author doing without a professional
edit of their work is taking a big, and potentially expensive, risk. (...)
Oh, by the way. I believe it IS true that new authors who skip a
professional edit of their work ARE taking a big risk.

Yes, this was clear. It was also my point. And to be honest I
have tried to figure out what risk is involved in skipping a
professional edit before submitting a work of fiction to a publisher
or agent. Postage? Rejection?

Unless, of course, someone is sending to Publish America or some other
questionable market that will publish them no matter what and
require them to use their own money to market their own, unreadable,
crap. Which they *also* should not do. The opportunity to give
new writers a "heads up" about all the ways that people will try
to take their money is a good thing.

J.Pascal: If your honest friend wants to avoid the appearance of
preying on the vulnerable, he might (besides *not* spamming
newsgroups) make a point of saying that he is available if the author
knows that they need the service for whatever reason, rather than
implying dire consequences for the fragile new author if they don't. (...)
Second, my message was not as heavy-handed as your comment implies. It
was not a threat saying, "Use an editing service or lose your ability
to get published!"

The web page, which was word for word what was posted, wasn't
heavy handed... it was practically subliminal. Which is worse because
it is more likely to catch people unaware. But it clearly communicated the
danger to the new author who does not use that service or one like it.

I don't think anyone will signup for my friend's service because they
were so intimidated be my posted message.

No. Only because they think that this is what *real* authors do
if they want to be successful. Because so many of us exist in
isolation and don't have any "real" writers that we can ask.

(...)

J.Pascal: Marketing isn't always moral, even when it's convincing
people they need a service that will be performed in good faith. It is
*still* preying on insecurities and making your living off of the
vulnerabilities of others.

It sounds like you are advocating that people should not try to
overcome their insecurities. I personally don't agree with that!

I honestly can't figure how you got from what I said to that
conclusion, particularly as I mentioned other ways that a person
can learn to write better that don't cost them money.

(...)

J.Pascal: I have only heard of *one* published fiction author who
regularly has someone else edit their work *outside*of the normal
editor/publisher arrangement. No doubt there are people who do use
editing services that I have no knowledge of...I hardly claim to be an
expert after all. But there does seem to be this... silence... from
published authors that I come in contact with. For some unfathomable
reason the recommendations to use editing services aren't coming from
*authors.*

I don't think that it is fair to judge online services that way.

I don't think those who are likely to use it will want others to know
their shortcomings. That seems to be against human nature.

I know too many people who freely admit their failings and weaknesses
to take that very seriously. Writers, it seems, are quite prone to
whine and angst and carry on about snotty muses and how their deathless
prose turned to drek between 4am when they wrote it and noon the next
day.

Look, I can see having a book 'professionally' edited. For instance,
if a person isn't a "writer" at all, but is self-publishing some
sort of specialty book in their field of expertise, or a family
history, or something. But if I have to believe someone, it's going
to be the authors who've posted to this thread, Dorothy and Steve
and Charlie and Brenda and whoever else... I think Nicky chimed in
as well. If someone is going to "be a writer" then they need to
learn how to write. And they should get paid by someone else once
they do, and that someone else should provide editing.

And the reason I babble on here so much is because these other
people *are* writers and I'm just trying to avoid fixing the
fight in chapter three in which "something important happens." ;-)

j.pascal

 

[Julia Jones]

I've deliberately left the cross-posting in - I'd suggest that people in
other groups take a look at the website I'm going to quote, because much
of the advice there is useful for *all* fiction writers, and many
non-fiction writers.

Look, I can see having a book 'professionally' edited. For instance,
if a person isn't a "writer" at all, but is self-publishing some
sort of specialty book in their field of expertise, or a family
history, or something. But if I have to believe someone, it's going
to be the authors who've posted to this thread, Dorothy and Steve
and Charlie and Brenda and whoever else... I think Nicky chimed in
as well. If someone is going to "be a writer" then they need to
learn how to write. And they should get paid by someone else once
they do, and that someone else should provide editing.

And then there's the advice about book doctors that SFWA (Science
Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America) give on one of their Writers
Beware webpages:

http://sfwa.org/Beware/bookdoctors.html

They point out that most writers don't need a book doctor (i.e. the
service being spamvertised by the original poster) and explain when you
might actually have a use for a book doctor, and what to look for when
finding one.

Here are two of the things listed under signs to beware of:

Statements that publishers nowadays won't look at mss. that haven't been
professionally edited. Dishonest or ignorant book doctors often prey on
the anxieties of aspiring writers by saying that publishers won't look
at manuscripts unless they've been professionally edited. In-house
editors, they say, no longer have the time to edit--they want books that
are picture-perfect and ready to publish.

Direct solicitation. Legitimate editors may maintain websites or
advertise in industry journals. But they don't cold-call writers. If
you've registered your copyright or subscribe to a writer's magazine,
you may be a target: disreputable editors sometimes purchase mailing
lists from these sources.



The information on that page gives you a good idea of why the
inhabitants of rec.arts.sf.composition were less than impressed with the
original post, and followup posts from the spammer. The experience of
speculative fiction writers has been that editing services that are
spammed on usenet are typically either incompetent or outright fraud.
One of the ads I specifically remember that looked like the one that
started this thread was from Edit Ink, the proprietors of which are
currently doing time in gaol. Most aren't quite that bad, but any
editing service which tries to convince people that they can't get
published without paying for editing is going to be tarred with the same
brush. It suggests that the advertiser either believes it themselves, in
which case they don't know enough about the publishing industry to be
able to do a good job on the type of editing required, or they do know
it's not true, in which case they're lying to people.

 

[David Chapman]

From the Collected Witterings of Suzanne S. Barnhill, volume 23:

Top posting is common among OE users.

Acceptance varies from group to group, although on the whole I tend to find
that top-posting is in fact common among newbies and lusers only. This may
not include you, but if I can't follow your arguments because you top post
and I have to keep scrolling up and down to decipher what you're saying I
will be disinclined to find out and thus will probably treat you as a luser
or a newbie - especially when your sig doesn't conform to the 4x80 standard.
As ever, YMMV.

As to the convenience of it, almost everyone I know finds it impossibly
unwieldy for any thread more than one layer deep. It was best summed up
like this:

It makes the conversation hard to follow.
Why is it bad?
Putting the reply before the thing being replied to.
What is top posting?

 

[Graham Mayor]

If you want to bottom post then we top posters may take the trouble to
scroll to the bottom of your post to see what wisdom you wish to impart. On
the other hand with hundreds of other messages to look at we probably won't
bother. This is something that has been discussed many times and not only in
the Word groups. It's merely a matter of choice. Most of the regular
contributors in the Word groups will top post most of the time. If you don't
like that, don't join in.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

Web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>

 

[Kristopher]

If you want to bottom post then we top posters may take the
trouble to scroll to the bottom of your post to see what
wisdom you wish to impart. On the other hand with hundreds
of other messages to look at we probably won't bother.
This is something that has been discussed many times and not
only in the Word groups. It's merely a matter of choice. Most
of the regular contributors in the Word groups will top post
most of the time. If you don't like that, don't join in.

This thread is massively crossposted. In rasfc, bottom
posting is the norm to the point that insisting on top
posting is often considered rude.

Top posting makes no sense, by the way. It makes the
discussion harder to follow by removing the sense of
chronological and structural order. It also makes
responding to individual points within a post harder.

Follow-ups trimmed.

 

[J Cravens]

Please remove soc.org.nonprofit from this thread

I posted this ad about my friend's website.

I am not an editor, just a webmaster helping a firm that offers a very
good service to find writers who need their services.

Opinicus: So what makes this a scam??? The fact that it's unsolicited
commercial advertising in a public forum.

This comment seems to confuse me. My question: How private is this
"public forum"?

I thought a "public" forum was a place to discuss various topics in an
open manner. Am I wrong?

I may have a little off-scope with some of the forums I placed my ad,
but it was not a random choice for placement. I was looking for forums
that might welcome such a service and this forum seemed to match my
criteria.

J.Pascal: Not that I can quite imagine an editing service being the
difference between a manuscript that sells to a professional market
and one that can't, won't, and never ever will. But there you go.

I was not trying to make that as my point .We humans are not all the
same. Some of us have great skills with writing. Some of us have
almost no skill. Most of us fit between the two extremes. My friend's
editing service is for those who feel they need it.

J.Pascal: Making money off of people's insecurities is kinda low in
any case, even when it isn't properly a "scam." If you look at the ad
it clearly suggests that a new author doing without a professional
edit of their work is taking a big, and potentially expensive, risk.

Many times people's insecurities are based on logical reasons.

The strong among us don't bury their head in the sand when they have
insecurities. They seek help to overcome their fear. Help can be found
in many forms.

My friend offers help in the form of a paid online editing service.

Oh, by the way. I believe it IS true that new authors who skip a
professional edit of their work ARE taking a big risk.

J.Pascal: If your honest friend wants to avoid the appearance of
preying on the vulnerable, he might (besides *not* spamming
newsgroups) make a point of saying that he is available if the author
knows that they need the service for whatever reason, rather than
implying dire consequences for the fragile new author if they don't.

First, I was not spamming newsgroups! I targeted specific types of
newsgroups just right for my message. Please find fault with my
message and not where I put it! But for the record I was wrong posting
it in several news groups at the same time, and I won't do it again!

Second, my message was not as heavy-handed as your comment implies. It
was not a threat saying, "Use an editing service or lose your ability
to get published!"

I don't think anyone will signup for my friend's service because they
were so intimidated be my posted message.

Those who need this service will take a look at www.aysaediting.com
and make up their own mind on the usefulness of this online editing
service.

J.Pascal: Marketing isn't always moral, even when it's convincing
people they need a service that will be performed in good faith. It is
*still* preying on insecurities and making your living off of the
vulnerabilities of others.

It sounds like you are advocating that people should not try to
overcome their insecurities. I personally don't agree with that!

Please read my posted message again. It is not a slick attempt to
convince anyone of anything. It is a message offering help to those
who need it.

Dayo Mitchell: However, unsolicited Spam undermines the credibility of
a company, even if it is directed to somewhat relevant groups (and
it's definitely out of place on at least the two microsoft groups).
I'd be a bit concerned about using an editor who was too clueless to
recognize the sort of reaction such an email would provoke.

I directed my posting to a few groups that were related to MS Word
documents. At the time, I felt it was appropriate since my friend's
editing service only works with MS Word documents.

I am not offering the service myself. And my friend who offers the
service did not know I placed this ad on newsgroups.

I have used newsgroups in the past to promote my own and other
websites without having this sort of reaction occur.

Should I have made a stronger tie-in between my message and the news
groups I posted to? Well yes. I am learning from this!

Dayo Mitchell: I would suggest that the person with the friend
encourage the friend to use the newsgroups for marketing in a very
different way, if they must. For instance, by giving good answers to
single questions, and using a signature with a simple tagline, eg: For
individual editing consultations, see www.xyz.com. In that way, one
not only reaches a potential market, but builds some credibility with
it.

Some suggestions in this forum are useful to my cause. And I will pass
these comments to my friend. Perhaps I can get him to be active in
forums like this one.

J.Pascal: I have only heard of *one* published fiction author who
regularly has someone else edit their work *outside*of the normal
editor/publisher arrangement. No doubt there are people who do use
editing services that I have no knowledge of...I hardly claim to be an
expert after all. But there does seem to be this... silence... from
published authors that I come in contact with. For some unfathomable
reason the recommendations to use editing services aren't coming from
*authors.*

I don't think that it is fair to judge online services that way.

I don't think those who are likely to use it will want others to know
their shortcomings. That seems to be against human nature.

 

[J Cravens]

Please remove soc.org.nonprofit from this thread

If you want to bottom post then we top posters may take the trouble to
scroll to the bottom of your post to see what wisdom you wish to impart. On
the other hand with hundreds of other messages to look at we probably won't
bother. This is something that has been discussed many times and not only in
the Word groups. It's merely a matter of choice. Most of the regular
contributors in the Word groups will top post most of the time. If you don't
like that, don't join in.

--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

Web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site www.mvps.org/word
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>

 

[J Cravens]

Please remove soc.org.nonprofit from this thread

I've deliberately left the cross-posting in - I'd suggest that people in
other groups take a look at the website I'm going to quote, because much
of the advice there is useful for *all* fiction writers, and many
non-fiction writers.



And then there's the advice about book doctors that SFWA (Science
Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America) give on one of their Writers
Beware webpages:

http://sfwa.org/Beware/bookdoctors.html

They point out that most writers don't need a book doctor (i.e. the
service being spamvertised by the original poster) and explain when you
might actually have a use for a book doctor, and what to look for when
finding one.

Here are two of the things listed under signs to beware of:

Statements that publishers nowadays won't look at mss. that haven't been
professionally edited. Dishonest or ignorant book doctors often prey on
the anxieties of aspiring writers by saying that publishers won't look
at manuscripts unless they've been professionally edited. In-house
editors, they say, no longer have the time to edit--they want books that
are picture-perfect and ready to publish.

Direct solicitation. Legitimate editors may maintain websites or
advertise in industry journals. But they don't cold-call writers. If
you've registered your copyright or subscribe to a writer's magazine,
you may be a target: disreputable editors sometimes purchase mailing
lists from these sources.



The information on that page gives you a good idea of why the
inhabitants of rec.arts.sf.composition were less than impressed with the
original post, and followup posts from the spammer. The experience of
speculative fiction writers has been that editing services that are
spammed on usenet are typically either incompetent or outright fraud.
One of the ads I specifically remember that looked like the one that
started this thread was from Edit Ink, the proprietors of which are
currently doing time in gaol. Most aren't quite that bad, but any
editing service which tries to convince people that they can't get
published without paying for editing is going to be tarred with the same
brush. It suggests that the advertiser either believes it themselves, in
which case they don't know enough about the publishing industry to be
able to do a good job on the type of editing required, or they do know
it's not true, in which case they're lying to people.