OEM vs refill

[CWatters]

A lot has been said on this already but the two claims made against refills
are that they fade and lead to clogged heads. Lets say you believe that for
a moment...

Most people do two types of printing....

1) Letters and other text documents that need only last for a short time.
2) Photos and other high quality work that they might wish to keep for a
long time.

I suspect most people do much more of 1) than 2).. If so then the money you
save using refills for 1) would pay for a second printer and OEM carts to do
2). If you use a printer that has the heads in the cart you just need to
keep a set of OEM cards for the better work.

Given the relative price of some printers and carts you probably even could
afford to trash a printer head ocasionally. If this was a frequent occurance
nobody would by refill ink anyway - so it can't be that frequent a problem.

So even if refill carts suffer from the claimed defects it would appear you
are better off using them.

Anyone done the numbers?

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

A lot has been said on this already but the two claims made against refills
are that they fade and lead to clogged heads. Lets say you believe that for
a moment...

This is not true but I see where you are going.

Most people do two types of printing....

1) Letters and other text documents that need only last for a short time.
2) Photos and other high quality work that they might wish to keep for a
long time.

I suspect most people do much more of 1) than 2).. If so then the money you
save using refills for 1) would pay for a second printer and OEM carts to do
2). If you use a printer that has the heads in the cart you just need to
keep a set of OEM cards for the better work.

One of the main reasons I use Canon printers is the carts are for ink
only (and non-chipped for our printers) and the print head is user
replaceable. Also, all our pictures are digital having come from a
digital camera or the older print have been scanned. Nothing we print
would ever be lost due to fading (which has not been a problem anyway)
because we have a digital copy in the computer and on various backups
like external hard drives and DVDs. If one did happen to fade I would
just print another one. With compatible cost of printing is never an
issue. If a relative needs another copy of a print I can reprint it or
just send them the digital file via email and let them handle it.

Given the relative price of some printers and carts you probably even could
afford to trash a printer head ocasionally. If this was a frequent occurance
nobody would by refill ink anyway - so it can't be that frequent a problem.

All our canon printers have the original print heads and they all have
used compatible ink after the OEM cartridges that came in the box went
empty. The Canon MP780 that I have in my home office has seen more
compatible ink cartridges than I care to count. The print head is still
going strong after 1.5 years of heavy use. If the print head died
tomorrow I couldn't complain or blame the ink I used.

My wife is a dedicated scrap booker and uses a Canon iP4000 to print
photos for her self and many of her friends using compatible ink and
typically Ilford Smooth Pearl photo paper. If she were having issues
with the ink or the paper you can believe I would hear about it. She
hasn't complained a single time about clogging or fading of prints.

So even if refill carts suffer from the claimed defects it would appear you
are better off using them.

Anyone done the numbers?

I've done the numbers and for us we save at least $1,000 a year in ink
costs and probably more. That would pay for a lot of new print heads
but that isn't needed so it is just more money I can throw at
photographic equipment.

 

[measekite]

A lot has been said on this already but the two claims made against refills
are that they fade and lead to clogged heads.

Also the quality is not as good, you have to deal with unprofessional
sources that do not disclose what they are selling, and it is a messy
and inconvenient nuisance.

Lets say you believe that for
a moment...


Absolutely

Most people do two types of printing....

1) Letters and other text documents that need only last for a short time.
2) Photos and other high quality work that they might wish to keep for a
long time.

I suspect most people do much more of 1) than 2)..

At first glance but not actually. There may be more print jobs of text
documents but more ink is used on photos.

If so then the money you
save using refills for 1) would pay for a second printer and OEM carts to do
2).

Incorrect. I have a separate printer (HP) for doing letters and text
documents and use OEM ink in it. If I used generic ink I may not spend
the additional $25 to $50 in 12 to 14 months. That is no big deal.

If you use a printer that has the heads in the cart you just need to
keep a set of OEM cards for the better work.

Given the relative price of some printers and carts you probably even could
afford to trash a printer head ocasionally.

This is an ommission that the generic ink has a higher risk of clogging
heads. You forgot to address the lower quality and fading.

If this was a frequent occurance
nobody would by refill ink anyway - so it can't be that frequent a problem.

So even if refill carts suffer from the claimed defects it would appear you
are better off using them.

Anyone done the numbers?

Ron did the numbers and you heard what he said.

 

[measekite]

This is not true but I see where you are going.



One of the main reasons I use Canon printers is the carts are for ink
only (and non-chipped for our printers) and the print head is user
replaceable. Also, all our pictures are digital having come from a
digital camera or the older print have been scanned. Nothing we print
would ever be lost due to fading (which has not been a problem anyway)
because we have a digital copy in the computer and on various backups
like external hard drives and DVDs. If one did happen to fade I would
just print another one. With compatible cost of printing is never an
issue. If a relative needs another copy of a print I can reprint it or
just send them the digital file via email and let them handle it.



All our canon printers have the original print heads and they all have
used compatible ink after the OEM cartridges that came in the box went
empty. The Canon MP780 that I have in my home office has seen more
compatible ink cartridges than I care to count. The print head is
still going strong after 1.5 years of

heavy use.

helps to reduce the risk of clogging. reduced quality and fading does
not have a cure. now if one has low expectations and cannot judge better
quality results or does not care then the lower quality is not an issue.
if one wants to accept fading then that is not an issue.

If the print head died tomorrow I couldn't complain or blame the ink I
used.

My wife is a dedicated scrap booker and uses a Canon iP4000 to print
photos for her self and many of her friends using compatible ink and
typically Ilford Smooth Pearl photo paper.

Boy this says it all. After buying Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl and
reading the Ilford website I exchange it for Ilford Galerie Classic Pearl.

Here is what Ilford says on their website about their own paper:

Printer Compatibility:
All photo quality dye- and pigment-based desktop inkjet printers from
Epson, Hewlett
Packard, Canon, Lexmark and other leading brands. For optimum print
life, GALERIE SMOOTH
papers are recommended for use with pigmentbased printers. If you have a
dye-based printer,
but prefer the look, feel and instant dry properties of GALERIE SMOOTH
papers, it is
recommended to laminate, sleeve or frame the prints behind glass to
maximize print life.*
For most dye users, GALERIE CLASSIC papers are a better choice since
they offer greater print longevity.

*A note on microceramic coating technology: The advanced microceramic
technology
used in the coating of the SMOOTH GLOSS and SMOOTH PEARL papers creates the
instant dry effect. As with all microceramic coated media, when used
with dye-based
inks, a certain amount of fading can be seen after a relatively short
period of time.
This potential phenomenon known as “gas fading” is a result of airborne
contaminants
that may chemically react with the dye inks that are sitting beneath the
surface of the
paper in the pores of the receiver layer. This potential chemical
reaction, which is
completely unrelated to light conditions as it can occur in complete
darkness, may cause
the image to fade. SMOOTH GLOSS and SMOOTH PEARL papers are comparable
with the other leading microceramic papers on the market, in this
respect. To minimize
this effect and promote greater image longevity of dye-based prints on
SMOOTH GLOSS
and SMOOTH PEARL papers, it is advisable to laminate or frame them
behind glass

now this poster will dispute what the paper mfg says about their product
with all ink. Is Ilford not telling the truth or what? Some people do
not know enough about what they are doing to realize what they are
getting and what they should get.

 

[frank]

A lot has been said on this already but the two claims made against refills
are that they fade and lead to clogged heads. Lets say you believe that for
a moment...

Most people do two types of printing....

1) Letters and other text documents that need only last for a short time.
2) Photos and other high quality work that they might wish to keep for a
long time.

I suspect most people do much more of 1) than 2).. If so then the money you
save using refills for 1) would pay for a second printer and OEM carts to do
2). If you use a printer that has the heads in the cart you just need to
keep a set of OEM cards for the better work.

Given the relative price of some printers and carts you probably even could
afford to trash a printer head ocasionally. If this was a frequent occurance
nobody would by refill ink anyway - so it can't be that frequent a problem.

So even if refill carts suffer from the claimed defects it would appear you
are better off using them.

Anyone done the numbers?

I have an IP5000 that uses MIS ink for refilling and an IP4200 that is
only used for printing photos. The IP4200 only gets Canon cartridges.
Since my throwaway printing is about 10 times my photo printing this
is the economically way of doing things. The IP4200 produces photos
that in my opinion are superior to the MIS ink. Accelerated UV
testing shows the Canon ink is about 25 times more fade resistant than
any of the 4 aftermarket inks that I have tried. MIS ink is the best
aftermarket ink that have tried. The others are not capable of
producing a reasonable color gamut mostly because the cyan ink is not
very true to being cyan. Magenta can be a problem, but less so. Most
people can produce yellow and black that are true.

All the print heads that I have eventually clog whether using OEM of
aftermarket ink. The problem is the finer jets clog. Most people
will never notice this unless they look very closely. On most
documents this is not a problem, on photos it is more noticeable. By
having a limited use photo printer clogging becomes a non issue.

 

[frank]

I have an IP5000 that uses MIS ink for refilling and an IP4200 that is
only used for printing photos. The IP4200 only gets Canon cartridges.
Since my throwaway printing is about 10 times my photo printing this
is the economically way of doing things. The IP4200 produces photos
that in my opinion are superior to the MIS ink. Accelerated UV
testing shows the Canon ink is about 25 times more fade resistant than
any of the 4 aftermarket inks that I have tried. MIS ink is the best
aftermarket ink that have tried. The others are not capable of
producing a reasonable color gamut mostly because the cyan ink is not
very true to being cyan. Magenta can be a problem, but less so. Most
people can produce yellow and black that are true.

All the print heads that I have eventually clog whether using OEM of
aftermarket ink. The problem is the finer jets clog. Most people
will never notice this unless they look very closely. On most
documents this is not a problem, on photos it is more noticeable. By
having a limited use photo printer clogging becomes a non issue.

I have not seen nor experience the same poor results you supposedly have
using after market inks. I have a Canon i9900 printer that, since 2003,
has used exclusively, after market inks. For over a year now I've been
using Hobbicolors refill ink for Canon and Hobbicolors carts.
The color results exactly match my Sony GDM-F520 crt monitor where as I
had a lot of color match problems using the supplied oem carts. I print
A3+ glossy photos (13" x 19" borderless) using Canon paper. Some photos
I frame & mat under glass but others I don't frame and have not seen
any fading at all in these photos. Nor have I had any print head clogging.
I've been using after market inks and carts in my Canon and Epson
printers for over ten years now without any problems at all.
If you prefer oem inks then that's just fine by me! If you've had actual
bad experiences with after market inks, too bad. I haven't. If you've
never, ever used after market inks, then don't post your opinion because
it's worthless and meaningless.

frank

 

[Taliesyn]

A lot has been said on this already but the two claims made against refills
are that they fade and lead to clogged heads. Lets say you believe that for
a moment...

Most people do two types of printing....

1) Letters and other text documents that need only last for a short time.
2) Photos and other high quality work that they might wish to keep for a
long time.

I suspect most people do much more of 1) than 2).. If so then the money you
save using refills for 1) would pay for a second printer and OEM carts to do
2). If you use a printer that has the heads in the cart you just need to
keep a set of OEM cards for the better work.

Given the relative price of some printers and carts you probably even could
afford to trash a printer head ocasionally. If this was a frequent occurance
nobody would by refill ink anyway - so it can't be that frequent a problem.

So even if refill carts suffer from the claimed defects it would appear you
are better off using them.

Anyone done the numbers?

Last year I saved about $1000 Canadian by using refill ink instead of
ridiculously price OEM ink (Canon) in my 3 printers. I printed a wide
range of material from photos to emails to greeting cards to CD/DVD
liners to several 96 page booklets in HIGH resolution. Outside of a
completely bum Canon i860 printer where the paper feed and printhead
failed after about a month of use, I experienced no problems whatsoever.
The printer and printhead were replaced and it worked to perfection with
the same refill inks the rest of the year. It is currently in storage,
the printhead cleaned of all ink (not enough work for it). Two other
printers work to this day with refill ink - the iP5000 going on its 21st
month of perfect operation, and a lesser iP4000 in its second year. Both
have been upgraded to print CD/DVD liners. Even though the iP5000 has
the smallest nozzles of all printers, there hasn't been the slightest
clogging, and I've used various different inks. This year I won't save
as much as I'm busy with a special project. But even if it's just 4 sets
of cartridges, my savings will still be over $300 as refill ink costs me
but $5 to fill a set of 5 carts.

Those are my numbers: $100 for a set of OEM ink versus $5 for refill.
Hmmmm, difficult choice!

-Taliesyn

 

[measekite]

Last year I saved about $1000 Canadian by using refill ink instead of
ridiculously price OEM ink (Canon) in my 3 printers.

you saved nothing. you just spent less and got less. actually you
spend less money and got more clogging and more fading and got less quality.

I printed a wide
range of material from photos to emails to greeting cards to CD/DVD
liners to several 96 page booklets in HIGH resolution.

printing of emails sets fading and quality aside.

Outside of a
completely bum Canon i860 printer where the paper feed and printhead
failed after about a month of use, I experienced no problems whatsoever.
The printer and printhead were replaced and it worked to perfection with
the same refill inks the rest of the year. It is currently in storage,
the printhead cleaned of all ink (not enough work for it). Two other
printers work to this day with refill ink - the iP5000 going on its 21st
month of perfect operation, and a lesser iP4000 in its second year. Both
have been upgraded to print CD/DVD liners. Even though the iP5000 has
the smallest nozzles of all printers, there hasn't been the slightest
clogging, and I've used various different inks.

nodody believes this.

This year I won't save
as much as I'm busy with a special project. But even if it's just 4 sets
of cartridges, my savings will still be over $300 as refill ink costs me
but $5 to fill a set of 5 carts.

Those are my numbers: $100 for a set of OEM ink versus $5 for refill.
Hmmmm, difficult choice!

it is an easy choice to use oem ink. ron found out the hard way.

 

[frank]

Those are my numbers: $100 for a set of OEM ink versus $5 for refill.
Hmmmm, difficult choice!

-Taliesyn

How about these numbers.
One $35 Hobbicolors 8 color ink refills (includes their carts) equals 40
oem canon carts that costs about $500.
Savings = $465.
Do that enough and your next car is within reach!
Frank

 

[CWatters]

helps to reduce the risk of clogging. reduced quality and fading does
not have a cure.

Yes it does and that was my point.... The money you save using refills more
than pays for your use of OEM ink when you need max quality.... or do you
allways print _everything_ at the highest quality (slowest speed) setting?

 

[CWatters]

you saved nothing. you just spent less and got less. actually you
spend less money and got more clogging and more fading and got less

quality.

No he got the quality he needed. If that was less quality then so be it but
he's not complaining. Why use the expensive "high" quality ink for EVERY
print job. Measekite must be the only person who prints everything on the
highest quality (slowest speed) setting of his printer.

 

[zakezuke]

No he got the quality he needed. If that was less quality then so be it but
he's not complaining. Why use the expensive "high" quality ink for EVERY
print job. Measekite must be the only person who prints everything on the
highest quality (slowest speed) setting of his printer.

Pretty much... I printed off a ton of DVDs and CDs on my ip3000 using
aftermarket ink. Given they live in a case, on a shelf, and don't get
exposed to much light, nothing has faided, at least not to any degree I
can notice.

Good enough for my application... and I can always go out and buy OEM
if I want to, no big deal, or just use aftermarket and spray my prints.
No big deal. Or go costco/snapfish... works just fine.

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

Yes it does and that was my point.... The money you save using refills more
than pays for your use of OEM ink when you need max quality.... or do you
allways print _everything_ at the highest quality (slowest speed) setting?

Anything I print on plain paper has a very limited use time. As for
photos and exhibits my wife and I use Tyler Martin inks and Ilford
Smooth Pearl paper. When I got the iP4000 and MP780 printers I compared
exact same photos using OEM and Tyler Martin inks and found very
little difference. IMO, the compatible ink was at least 95% as accurate
as OEM ink. With a little tweaking of the color profile it probably
could be moved to nearly 100%. As for fading, it has not been a problem
for us in any way and we have heard no complaints from friends or family
we have given prints to.

 

[Gary Tait]

Taliesyn wrote:


you saved nothing. you just spent less and got less. actually you
spend less money and got more clogging and more fading and got less
quality.

I wouldn't call a grand nothing. And since the nature of his work doesn't
lead to fading conditions, and he has claimed no clogs or ink related
failures, that is a lie.

 

[measekite]

Yes it does and that was my point.... The money you save using refills more
than pays for your use of OEM ink when you need max quality.... or do you
allways print _everything_ at the highest quality (slowest speed) setting?

there only arguement is money. that is all they say. the above
staterment "use of OEM ink when you need the quality" means that OEM ink
is of higher quality. that is an admission of truth. quality means
reduced fading and better looking results. here is a friend of the
refiller telling you in different words what i have been saying all the
time.

 

[measekite]

quality.

No he got the quality he needed. If that was less quality then so be it but
he's not complaining. Why use the expensive "high" quality ink for EVERY
print job. Measekite must be the only person who prints everything on the
highest quality (slowest speed) setting of his printer.

do not ASSume what I do and the settings I use.

 

[measekite]

Anything I print on plain paper has a very limited use time. As for
photos and exhibits my wife and I use Tyler Martin inks and Ilford
Smooth Pearl paper.

Not only is that the generic ink but it is a dye based ink on a
microporous paper that Ilford does not recommend for use with dye ink
since it is subject to gas fading shortly after printing. Ilford say
(they only made the paper) that all dye ink when used with their Smooth
papers are subject to rapid and severe gas fading and they recommend
using their Classic papers with this type of ink. It is obvious that
you do not follow the mfg instructions on anything.

When I got the iP4000 and MP780 printers I compared exact same photos
using OEM and Tyler Martin inks and found very little difference.

You do not have the professional ability to judge.

IMO, the compatible ink was at least 95% as accurate as OEM ink.

that makes a minimum of a 5% difference without even getting a chance to
fade.

With a little tweaking of the color profile it probably could be
moved to nearly 100%.

since they will not tell you what they are selling you cannot get a
color profile for the paper. Ilford does not have one. but they do
have profiles for HP, Epson, and Canon.

snip

 

[CWatters]

there only arguement is money. that is all they say. the above
staterment "use of OEM ink when you need the quality" means that OEM ink
is of higher quality. that is an admission of truth.

If you say so.

quality means
reduced fading and better looking results. here is a friend of the
refiller telling you in different words what i have been saying all the
time.

Again you miss the point. Even IF we agree with you that OEM is better, the
two printer set up demonstrates how it STILL makes sense to use refill ink
in one of them. You won't save as much money but you get OEM quality when
you need it and refill cost savings when you don't.

 

[CWatters]

do not ASSume what I do and the settings I use.

So you admit that sometimes you do not need the best quality you OEM inks
can provide?

 

[milou]

"measekite"

Again you miss the point. Even IF we agree with you that OEM is better, the
two printer set up demonstrates how it STILL makes sense to use refill ink
in one of them. You won't save as much money but you get OEM quality when
you need it and refill cost savings when you don't.

Please don't feed the troll.

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