OEM Recovery Discs Don't Work "Fine," and Microsoft Has Responded!


C

Chad Harris

Malke recently wrote:

"{This has not been my experience nor that of my colleagues in doing many
hundreds of restore-to-factory-condition jobs on many different brands of
computers. The recovery disks work fine as long as there are no hardware
issues and the correct recovery disks are used."

Malke

MS-MVP
Elephant Boy Computers - Don't Panic!
http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/#FAQ

Richard Urban also seemed to agree in a recent post on the same thread
asking me what I meant by "recovery disc". Mr. Urban asked me the other
day:

"What exactly do you consider a recovery disk? Lets all get on the same page
here."

I'm delighted to get us "all on the same page here."

There is a recovery disk (a disk image) you can make yourself by using
TrueImage or some other such program. Then there are recovery disks that
come with a new computer. Which are you talking about?"

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience

I'd like to state to Mr. Urban emphatically that I've had Acronis for years.
I've helped on their forums. Many people can't recover with the disc
Acronis makes.

When I'm trying to fix a Microsoft Windows Operating System, in Vista or any
build of Windows 7, I prefer to use the tools that Microsoft has made rather
than Acronis. I'm going to be blunt here. Microsoft pays their engineers
far more than Acronis will ever dream of paying theirs and there is a damn
good reason. Microsoft's engineers have considerably more education,
training, imagination, and competence than Acronis' personnel, and frankly
Acronis backups (the .tibs) and their Recovery Disc often results in
failure.

OEM Recovery Discs often result in failure and if you watch this group
everyday, you'll see scores of people complaining in a short period of time
that their OEM recovery disc isn't worth using it for a Frisbee. I've
quoted the newest post for help on this thread as I type this to underscore
my point, and also to educate people, including MVPs that Microsoft has
addressed this problem with the ability to make a Startup Repair disc in the
Windows Operating System when they RTM'd Vista SP1 over one year ago on
April 15, 2008. They have elected to continue this utility reached from the
All Programs Menu>Maintenance and ensconced in the C:\Windows\System32
folder in every service pack of Vista including the soon to be released SP2
and they are including it in the next Operating System which I have on good
authority is called Windows 7 in each and every interim build until Windows
7 RTMs.

I have a screenshot below:

This is a screenshot of the two ways to do this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

This is the link from Neosmart's website to download and burn the .iso that
allows you to do the same thing as the Maintenance listing on the Vista SP1
and later Programs menu.

Windows Vista Recovery Disc (Vista Startup Repair .iso Download)
http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/


I'd like to once again distinguish between incompetent OEM Recovery discs
and to underscore, highlight, enhance, and showcase that Microsoft, the
company who makes the Windows Operating System as best I can tell (I've
checked carefully on this) has responded forcefully to Malke's contention
with a utility they placed in Windows Vista SP1 and every other build and
version of the OS including Vista SP2 through Windows 7 Build 7106 all the
way to Windows 7 RTM.

hp vista 64 recovery error 1002 by deck60 on 4/12/2008 @ 9:46PM

***This is posted on this group Malke and it's typical of hundreds of posts
I've answered here if not a thousand:***

"i had a problem and used the reinstall disks and it went all the way
through and on disk 3 it came up with error 1002 contact hp if this
problem continues if i take out the dvd and let it boot it has a boot
error i think it wiped my hd clean but not sure if i try the boot on
the hd using the recovery then it brings this error imedatley upon
loading why cant they give you a real vista disk I have only had it a
week and it seems to be dead should i take it back or what I am
begining to hate vista"

Psst Malke--

1) We don't want them to "hate Vista."
2) Mr. Ballmer and Mr. Sinofsky and thousands of former Vista and current
Win 7 team members don't want them to "hate Vista."
3) None of the MVPs or TAP participants wants them to "hate Vista."
4) No one who helps here regularly wants them to "hate Vista."
5) Our goal is to get Vista fixed here, as is yours. The links I've just
shown you maximize the chance to do that, they don't lose peoples' settings,
docs, files, folders, pics, music, movies and schoolwork.
6) These kids can't afford $1600 to have the material retrieved from their
unbacked up hard drive, and neither can a lot of people out of school for
years.
7) That's why Jim Allchin and the Vista team began to work on this utility
to put it in SP1 before the Vista Beta was over and well before Vista RTM'd.
Many of us hammered the point home it was needed, and MSFT listened.
Unfortunately there are a lot of MVPs who are unaware that it even exists
who keep touting OEM recovery discs.

8) Again, I drew you a picture of what I'm talking about to make it easy for
you:

This is a screenshot of the two ways to do this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

This is the link from Neosmart's website to download and burn the .iso that
allows you to do the same thing as the Maintenance listing on the Vista SP1
and later Programs menu.

Windows Vista Recovery Disc (Vista Startup Repair .iso Download)
http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/

What would you rather use? The exact same bits from Microsoft from their
Vista DVD to repair the OS or some inferior crap from some OEM who is way
too cheap to give anyone an OS DVD with their newly purchased box?

I think I know the results of any poll in any demography with any age group.
I know I know what Microsoft's intentions were in making this tool.

I hope this answers both Malke's question and Mr. Urban's question. I'm
delighted to take followups. It was my impression that a number of people
who do great work helping on this group were unaware Microsoft has done this
because they never have mentioned it that I can tell, including scores of
MVPs.

Best,

CH
 
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R

Richard Urban

I have never - EVER - had a failure on any computer that I work on
(hundreds) using Acronis TrueImage - either creating an image or restoring
an image. This is what **I** consider a recovery disk (image).

I make an image of every single computer I work on prior to performing any
work. If something blows up (happens occasionally) I can get the customers
computer back to the way it was when he gave it to me and start again. Now,
if the hard drive is physically defective (bad sectors etc.) of course the
image will fail in the same identical way.

As a service I make an image of a customers computer before I return it to
him Yes, there is a small charge for this as I now have 8 external 1
terabyte hard drives dedicated to just these image files. I tell my
customers that I will store the image for one year, after which the drive
will be recycled.

For an additional fee I will create the image file on CD/DVD disks. I test
each set of disk by performing a destructive recovery (the only way to be
certain they actually work) and then give the disks to the customer when he
picks up his computer.

If a former customer did not have me create the recovery CD/DVD disks, and
he/she does something that damages their computer I can (for a small fee)
return their computer to the way it was when I gave it back to them last
year from my external disk image. Takes about 10-20 minutes.

People have come back to me dozens of times for me to restore their
computers. I have never run into a problem.

No, I don't have a shop or store front. I work out of my home at a very
leisurely pace, and can afford to spend the extra time needed to do the
above.

I don't know what you may be doing wrong but I trust TrueImage completely!

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Chad Harris said:
Malke recently wrote:

"{This has not been my experience nor that of my colleagues in doing many
hundreds of restore-to-factory-condition jobs on many different brands of
computers. The recovery disks work fine as long as there are no hardware
issues and the correct recovery disks are used."

Malke

MS-MVP
Elephant Boy Computers - Don't Panic!
http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/#FAQ

Richard Urban also seemed to agree in a recent post on the same thread
asking me what I meant by "recovery disc". Mr. Urban asked me the other
day:

"What exactly do you consider a recovery disk? Lets all get on the same
page
here."

I'm delighted to get us "all on the same page here."

There is a recovery disk (a disk image) you can make yourself by using
TrueImage or some other such program. Then there are recovery disks that
come with a new computer. Which are you talking about?"

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience

I'd like to state to Mr. Urban emphatically that I've had Acronis for
years.
I've helped on their forums. Many people can't recover with the disc
Acronis makes.

When I'm trying to fix a Microsoft Windows Operating System, in Vista or
any
build of Windows 7, I prefer to use the tools that Microsoft has made
rather
than Acronis. I'm going to be blunt here. Microsoft pays their engineers
far more than Acronis will ever dream of paying theirs and there is a damn
good reason. Microsoft's engineers have considerably more education,
training, imagination, and competence than Acronis' personnel, and frankly
Acronis backups (the .tibs) and their Recovery Disc often results in
failure.

OEM Recovery Discs often result in failure and if you watch this group
everyday, you'll see scores of people complaining in a short period of
time
that their OEM recovery disc isn't worth using it for a Frisbee. I've
quoted the newest post for help on this thread as I type this to
underscore
my point, and also to educate people, including MVPs that Microsoft has
addressed this problem with the ability to make a Startup Repair disc in
the
Windows Operating System when they RTM'd Vista SP1 over one year ago on
April 15, 2008. They have elected to continue this utility reached from
the
All Programs Menu>Maintenance and ensconced in the C:\Windows\System32
folder in every service pack of Vista including the soon to be released
SP2
and they are including it in the next Operating System which I have on
good
authority is called Windows 7 in each and every interim build until
Windows
7 RTMs.

I have a screenshot below:

This is a screenshot of the two ways to do this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

This is the link from Neosmart's website to download and burn the .iso
that
allows you to do the same thing as the Maintenance listing on the Vista
SP1
and later Programs menu.

Windows Vista Recovery Disc (Vista Startup Repair .iso Download)
http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/


I'd like to once again distinguish between incompetent OEM Recovery discs
and to underscore, highlight, enhance, and showcase that Microsoft, the
company who makes the Windows Operating System as best I can tell (I've
checked carefully on this) has responded forcefully to Malke's contention
with a utility they placed in Windows Vista SP1 and every other build and
version of the OS including Vista SP2 through Windows 7 Build 7106 all the
way to Windows 7 RTM.

hp vista 64 recovery error 1002 by deck60 on 4/12/2008 @ 9:46PM

***This is posted on this group Malke and it's typical of hundreds of
posts
I've answered here if not a thousand:***

"i had a problem and used the reinstall disks and it went all the way
through and on disk 3 it came up with error 1002 contact hp if this
problem continues if i take out the dvd and let it boot it has a boot
error i think it wiped my hd clean but not sure if i try the boot on
the hd using the recovery then it brings this error imedatley upon
loading why cant they give you a real vista disk I have only had it a
week and it seems to be dead should i take it back or what I am
begining to hate vista"

Psst Malke--

1) We don't want them to "hate Vista."
2) Mr. Ballmer and Mr. Sinofsky and thousands of former Vista and current
Win 7 team members don't want them to "hate Vista."
3) None of the MVPs or TAP participants wants them to "hate Vista."
4) No one who helps here regularly wants them to "hate Vista."
5) Our goal is to get Vista fixed here, as is yours. The links I've just
shown you maximize the chance to do that, they don't lose peoples'
settings,
docs, files, folders, pics, music, movies and schoolwork.
6) These kids can't afford $1600 to have the material retrieved from their
unbacked up hard drive, and neither can a lot of people out of school for
years.
7) That's why Jim Allchin and the Vista team began to work on this utility
to put it in SP1 before the Vista Beta was over and well before Vista
RTM'd.
Many of us hammered the point home it was needed, and MSFT listened.
Unfortunately there are a lot of MVPs who are unaware that it even exists
who keep touting OEM recovery discs.

8) Again, I drew you a picture of what I'm talking about to make it easy
for
you:

This is a screenshot of the two ways to do this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

This is the link from Neosmart's website to download and burn the .iso
that
allows you to do the same thing as the Maintenance listing on the Vista
SP1
and later Programs menu.

Windows Vista Recovery Disc (Vista Startup Repair .iso Download)
http://neosmart.net/blog/2008/windows-vista-recovery-disc-download/

What would you rather use? The exact same bits from Microsoft from their
Vista DVD to repair the OS or some inferior crap from some OEM who is way
too cheap to give anyone an OS DVD with their newly purchased box?

I think I know the results of any poll in any demography with any age
group.
I know I know what Microsoft's intentions were in making this tool.

I hope this answers both Malke's question and Mr. Urban's question. I'm
delighted to take followups. It was my impression that a number of people
who do great work helping on this group were unaware Microsoft has done
this
because they never have mentioned it that I can tell, including scores of
MVPs.

Best,

CH


Chad

According to info on the Internet, the recovery disk option only appeared on
the Vista SP1 beta, and has not appeared on any kosher Vista since then.

This would suggest that Neosmart unofficially extracted the tool, not that
it is a bad thing unless of course it causes problems in later builds.
 
C

Chad Harris

Richard--

After I posted screenshots and "how tos" that might well work for them to
get their Vistas back intact basically promoting tools made by Microsoft,
specifically Startup Repair,(including 3 Bootrec switches from its cmd
prompt, system restore from Startup Repair's menu, and the F8 Windows
Advanced Options where 3 of them offer the opportunity to use System
Restore. I would note that I've seen for whatever reason, System Restore
may work from one of those 4 options, and not the other 3. I include
recommendations from Last Known Good Configuration (LKGC) although
statistically that registry snapshot is a "hail Mary pass." If they rarely
have a Vista DVD, then I'd include doing a repair install or an in place
upgrade as well. Most OEM pc buyers don't get the OS DVD, much less than 1%
in fact.

I've noticed lately after I take the time and trouble to post screenshots
and detailed links with directions, often from Microsoft on how to use these
Microsoft tools, some brain surgeon will pop up and brilliantly say
something in one short sentence glib like (near direct quotes) without
providing any substantive help because they don't know how to help:

"Don't waste your time; format the box."

"Don't waste your time; call HP."

"Don't waste your time; use the recovery discs--they work for me"

"Don't waste your time use the recovery partition."

Or as Malke said hours ago and he should know better to a college student
whose recovery disk failed:

"That's not a Vista issue."

Let's see: Microsoft thinks it's not a Vista issue to repair Vista so
strongly that they went out of their way to provide the way to make a Vista
Repair disc in Vista SP1 and every build of every OS and every Service Pack
after Vista SP1 (as you'll see when Vista SP2 or Win 7 RTMs or as you've
already seen).

Boy that helps the hell out of the poster doesn't it? Let me ask you
something. Given the fact that MSFT got some of their best and brightest to
develop repair tools that are available from Vista even when the individual
does not have a Vista DVD, do you believe MSFT thinks providing those Tools
on Vista from Redmond teams is not a Vista issue?

Then why the hell did the make the Windows Advanced Options Menu and Startup
Repair available to everyone for free as of Vista SP1?

Why did they make the Recovery Console (poorly understood by most end users)
and currently gone?

Why did the Win RE team post directions to install Win RE's tools on the OS
on their blog back on January 12, 2007 at the link below?

http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/archive/2007/01/12/how-to-install-winre-on-the-hard-disk.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/archive/2006/12/12/creating-winre-using-waik.aspx

I think I have Exhibits "A" and "B" that Microsoft feels repairing the OS is
an OS issue and they damn well put their repair tools in the OS over a year
ago in April 2008 and they plan on keeping them there in the next OS because
I'm looking at them.

I'd put Malke's nasty comment up as the most ridiculous comment I've seen in
the history of newsgroups or forums. That was simply an absurd thing to
say, and it wouldn't help the OP a scintilla.

I'd pose this question. What the hell kind of issue is it? Microsoft knows
well that these Recovery Disks are pieces of crap. I saw a lot of Beta
testers tell them over and over to do something about it. And guess what?
They friggin' did.

They accepted the fact that they and the OEMs weren't going to put out the
money to ever give away the OS DVD, and before it the XP CD. So they put a
tool in the Windows OS beginning with Vista SP1 to provide the panoply of
repair tools that they offer on that DVD.

All this displays is pure ignorance of the tools available/ a bad attitude,
or the quintessence of both.

The idea of posting in this group is to fix a broken OS (often that won't
boot) or to fix a problem where someone can't it, or to fix a problem where
a boot has been hidden because say the BCD or MBR has been overwritten by a
subsequent boot in a dual boot/multiboot situation with different OS's on
the box, some from MSFT, sometimes from MSFT and Linux.

Telling the person coming here for help that it's not a Vista problem is
like telling a person coming to a hospital ER bleeding profusely from the
chest or abdomen that "it's not a hospital problem--go back and find your
mother."

As I said a while ago to Malke:

Malkesoft doesn't see repairing Vista the best way as a Vista problem, but
Micrososft sure as hell does and they proved it here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

I thought it was hilarious when Malke said when the Recovery Disks don't
work, it's not a Vista or MSFT issue. That's absurd. If that's true then
why did MSFT, realizing that the OEM recovery disks/partitions don't work,
make Startup Repair available with Vista SP1? You think that was by
accident? But it seems they did it so quietly (it's not mentioned in any
MSKB I can find nor in the SP1 release notes nor in Vista Help articles
either from the OS or on the web anywhere).

I think it was because a lot of us urged MSFT during the Vista Beta to make
Startup Repair available when OEM partners refused to ship a Vista OS. Note
below that Dell's Media Chief promised he would ship a Vista OS DVD with
every box Dell sold. They aren't doing that tonight and haven't been doing
it.

With all respect due to anyone this is pure ignorance to the 64th power.
Why in the hell would anyone urge someone who needs help to do this, when
Microsoft has busted their butts to make tools far superior with developers
and PMs who know far more about lower level booting at Redmond like Jim
Allchin, like Steve Sinofsky and their teams?

Let me put it another way. Richard Urban loves Acronis, but in this
situation I'm taking it off the table. Why do I say that Richard? A lot of
these people have not backed up. Most of them if not all of them who come
here for help don't have Acronis. Most of them aren't knowledgeable and
experienced Windows mavens and enthusiasts who are also professionals
***like you are who fix people with TLC every day***. And as some of them
say, they aren't very familiar with computer fixing. So if I say to you,
Richard:

Here's an HP box. Or a Sony box, or an Acer or an Asus notebook. With it
came Recovery Disks, or a recovery partition. Malke seemed to imply for
example that in his hands, the recovery disks always work. I'm willing to
bet that I can take any box with a Vista or Windows 7 OS. I can hand you or
Malke the OEM recovery discs, or an OEM recovery partition (take both of
them) and I'll use MSFT's tools.

Keep in mind Richard, that thanks to what MSFT Win RE teams and the Storage
Team and teams from the servers did in Vista SP1, there is now the ability
(free) for anyone to make a Repair Disk that has the exact same bits on it
that a Vista Retail RTM has for repair. I realize the nuance in VSS in
system restore that exists between some versions of Vista, but that's really
another issue and not too relevant here.

Do you want to choose the recovery discs/partition over Startup Repair and
its options, or F8 and its options? That would seem ludicrous.

But what these posters who have posted in the last 24 hours on the setup
group seem to be saying is LOL

"This guy giving you instructions for Startup Repair or F8 is nuts. Don't
waste your time. Either use the Recovery Disks and if they don't work wipe
the box or call HP."

And who the hell do they get when the end users "call HP" or "MSFT" for that
matter. They don't get the engineers who have degrees in computer science
from high quality schools who dot MSFT campuses and abound at Redmond who
work with CTO's on custom installations for enterprises and midlevel
enterprises, and I know some of those.

They get 5 cities in India and people from Tata, Convergys of Ohio, and
other tech support puppy mills who are low waged butts in seats who also
don't speak English intelligibly for the most part, and don't know jack
about fixing Office or Vista or XP and soon Windows 7 or other software from
MSFT. And if you want to find a subject that a softie will profess complete
ignorance about, it's their phone support for end users. It's a complete
"see no evil here no evil paradigm" yet they'll always say in some flowerly
tone that we want the best experience possible for our customers. You
betcha goshdarnit. But they aren't getting it when they phone MSFT for
support and anyone with a heart that beats knows that.

It's a waste of time to call them. The end user gets a much higher quality
of help from the contributors here. They get Richard Urban don't they? And
they get the rest of us. So you tell me:

What kind of post basically says "Screw the guy who showed you how to use
the tools from the Vista teams who developed Win RE and are experts at low
level boot issues, storage issues, the server teams at Redmond who developed
these tools"--just use the recovery partition or "take your computer into
the store."

I have a dose of the real world. A lot of these people are kids in college
like the one who posted yesterday or in this economy they can't afford to
have someone pull their school work off a hard drive. If you call some of
the national services who do this their average price is $1600 bucks. These
kids aren't Don Trump's kids--they don't have that kind of money.

And most importantly, many of them already tried the Recovery
partitions/discs and they simply couldn't cut it.

But they did not know they might well be able to recover their OS with the
tools MSFT made for them, and that MSFT offers a way to make a startup
repair disk starting with Vista SP1. I haven't seen mention of it on these
two groups, but maybe I missed it the last few months when I wasn't
monitoring them. It's been available for nearly a year when Vista RTM'd SP1
in early April and then had to add some bits to make it work.

And besides the fact that the OEM recovery disks/partitions don't work a
high percentage of the time, what happens to all their documents, settings,
pics, music, videos they want and need to get back. If they are restored to
factory settings when the OEM recovery disks/partitions work, what happens
to the stuff they wanted to save? It just went bye bye.

The Startup Repair/aka WinRE tools and the F8 tools at the Windows Advanced
Options Menu, don't lose all this work that's vital for them. If they have
the Vista DVD and this is a small percentage of people who buy it on their
pc, then they have the additional option of trying a repair install. It
eliminates the chance that these individuals who can't afford $1600 bucks
from a professional as someone LOL out of contact with reality who is an MVP
recommended a couple nights ago to a college student.

Acronis True Image

From Richard Urban:

"I have never - EVER - had a failure on any computer that I work on
(hundreds) using Acronis TrueImage - either creating an image or restoring
an image. This is what **I** consider a recovery disk (image).

But Richard, most of the people who post here for help

1) Don't have Acronis True Image
2) Haven't backed up although we urge them to repeatedly as do many websites
despite the relatively easy backup modalities in Vista
3) Have already seen recovery disks/partitions fail

From what you've typed, Richard, it's evident that you'll stand behind your
customers, look out for them, and do everything you can to help them
backup/repair their systems. The service you offer is the quality that any
customer wants to have, and they are very lucky to have your help, in what
seems to be a boutique service that you run spending a lot of time and truly
caring for your customers.

I appreciate your recounting your experience with Acronis Richard, but
thousands of threads here, and tens of thousands of people have had a much
different experience. Acronis in your hands obviously seems to work very
well.

Acronis Official Forums

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64

As I said, two of the main "common denominator" issues for these people is
making a boot disc that works, and recovering from the Acronis backups that
they make because the .tibs get corrupted.

I've always made it a point to have every ATI version, but I've never needed
them. Backup to media or a hard drive is more reliable for me, and I don't
have to take the time to try to ID files and folders or to decompress them
from a .tib that might be corrupted.

If you google you can find infinite hits for people who can't make any of
Acronis' options work.

I realize Acronis has had a large number of accolades and satisfied
customers, and is considered the Geek imaging option of choice for a lot of
people. I'm glad it works well for you and the people who value it and its
tools.

I haven't felt the need though I have it and study its new features every
year, to use Acronis. I haven't had an operating system on any of the 4-6
boots I normally have going that I couldn't repair go South. Much of the
time, I break a conservative rule and I have multiple Beta apps on Betas.
The reason for that is that I love to see what's new from MSFT or other 3rd
party apps, including Office 14 now in Alpha which will be Office 2010, and
Win 7. The time sequence forces me to put Betas on Betas and I upgrade from
Betas as the builds progress because I like to see the new features. I know
the characteristics of interim builds that won't see the light of day, but I
like finding bugs and making suggestions hoping to get my input into the OS
or Office. I also realize that some interim builds represent two steps
forward and three steps back for specific features, but of course that's the
nature of Beta.

When the OS or Office RTMs, then I move to an RTM for more stability and the
newest features, but soon it will have a Beta SP on it and a lot of 3rd
party betas. I don't bother to make test boots, because I fell like I can
get out of any problem that comes up using the tools that MSDN or MSFT has
available like Startup Repair, Bootrec switches, or SubInACL. I don't think
I'm grandiosely saying that my boots are indestructible, but from not
knowing the Start Button from my belly button years ago, I've learned enough
to make fixes fairly easy for me.

Despite the fact that I have Beta on Beta for much of the time until an RTM
build is available, what works for me is to backup directly to DVD (using no
Backup mechanism) and to an external HD. I don't have to worry about
compressions corrupting, and WYSIWYG

The main point I'm trying to make here is that there seems lately to be a
pandemic of "helpers" here including some MVPs who at the slightest hint of
a problem booting Vista, tell the people who come for help to turn tail and
wipe the box or to use either two poor choices, a recovery partition or OEM
recovery discs.

It frankly seems ridiculous that all the people who are doing this seem to
have the thesis that Vista has no tools and the recovery OEM discs/or OEM
partitions are the answer(some hidden, some not which confuse a lot of end
users). This is why you have a current post on the setup group where
someone's uncle wiped the recovery partiton along with his box with
"killdisk" although I can't imagine why someone would read the description
of the software, let alone the name and think it was some kind of Rx for
repair. The uncle didn't know how to get into the notebook after losing his
password, and it would have been great if he'd come here for help, but
unfortunately he didn't.)

You've been helping on these threads for years, and I have as well, although
I got involved with some elections for months and spent my time there.
There are a lot of posts where those two OEM modalities just don't work. I
helped on the XP groups as you did, and on Microsoft chats and other
community forums for years, and I wish I had a nickel for all the people
that I helped fix who had *ALREADY TRIED* the OEM disc or partition and got
nada/zip/nowhere. That's the point when they posted for help. On the chats
that used to be available many of us spent literally hours helping these
people use the F8 options, or my favorite during my time on the XP groups
and chats, an XP Repair Install (often called an Inplace Upgrade--in fact
there are MSKBs with both names in the title and they do the same thing the
same way). MVPs Doug Knox and Kelly Theriott often referenced this; it was
my first choice for a repair when people had the XP CD (and most of them of
course did not).

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnmore/tips/doug92.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/knox.mspx

Doug Knox: How Do I do a Repair Install
http://www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_repair_install.htm

How to perform an in-place upgrade (reinstallation) of Windows
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315341

In my hands fixing XP no boots or systemic problems for these people, and
people live, the best efficacy was for ***an XP repair install/inplace
upgrade***, but they needed to get their hands on an XP DVD. And to
reference Acronis, when they came for help, they hadn't used it and hadn't
backed up. XP's backup left much to be desired but that's been discussed
and for another time.

300 + MSFT OEM named partners weren't about to help them get one, so they
were on their own to buy one.

I have documentation from Dell (Dell's Lionel Manchaca, Digital Media
Manager for Dell @ Roundrock--15 year Dell Employee, that promised when
Vista was about to RTM 1/30/07 that they were going to give each person who
bought a Dell a genuine Microsoft Vista DVD, but friends of mine who have
recently bought Dell haven't gotten them so I don't know what's up there.
With spare time, I'll tweet him or call him and find out what happened to
break his promise.

Lionel Manchaca's Broken Promise
http://direct2dell.org/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

Ask Lionel Manchaca why he broke the promise above
http://twitter.com/LionelatDell

Lionel Manchaca wrote at this link:
http://direct2dell.org/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx


Other users have expressed concern about not having the operating system
reinstallation CD when they need it. When ordering a new machine, all
consumers and corporate customers can opt for the Windows CD for around $10.
Additionally, since July 2004, most new PCs (Dell gaming systems all ship
with the OS CD)come pre-loaded with a disk partition that contains PC
Restore, an applcation that allows users to reinstall system software
quickly. See these instructions for how to use PC Restore to reinstall the
operating system and Dell factory-installed applications in about 10
minutes.

Manchaca then crossed this out and wrote what's below:

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell employees
for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I wrote this,
the OS media was listed as an option in the configuration for $0. I mis-read
the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also, though this been in
the works for some time before now, it's now official. For U.S. consumer
and small business customers, all systems will now ship with an operating
system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by later next month. In
Asia, things are unchanged-we've always shipped OS discs with systems
there."

MSFT's OEM VP has historically concurred in this policy through the reign of
now departed Scott DiValerio who incidentally refused all calls to discuss
the issue. I saw DiValerio's employee get booed at a System Builders
meeting by System Builders over this very issue. A group of System Builders
wanted to know why they were required to provide the actual Microsoft XP or
Vista DVD to customers, and the 300+ OEM partners were not.

The sassy glib answer was that when they sold 50,000 boxes, the same
exemptions would be extended to them. I can document this meeting, I
remember it as if it were 2 minutes ago. The rest of his answers to
questions were frankly pathetic, and not anywhere on a par with the hundreds
of MSFT presenters I've had the pleasure to watch.

The boos he received were richly deserved, and had the guy been reporting to
me in any venue and any profession, I'd have fired him on the spot both for
his arrogant answer to MSFT Partners who were also customers, and his simple
reprehensible lack of knowledge of hdw and software unusual for a MSFT
presenter. I thought he was a poor representative of MSFT considering the
high quality of hires for all their teams and many people a lot of us know
at Redmond and other MSFT campuses.

Best,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Wally, you be da man fo sure!

Wally the Windows OS Stud Muffin and Onion aficionado wrote:
Is this post a joke from the Onion or something?

The jokes are people like you who are charter members of
ClownsonNewsgroupsRUs.

a) have zero to contribute towards fixing anyone
b) don't have a clue what the fix modalities are
c) have nothing better to do than mask their inferiority with feigned
superiority but when the chips are down have zero knowledge of the issues
this group is about

I haven't seen a Wally post here fixing anything. Can you link me to one?

I'd suggest you go back to Onion, or put yourself on the 2012 ticket with
Sarah the Ditz. I think you show an excellent potential to beat out Joe the
Sam the Unemployed Plumber, goshdarnit, youbetcha.

You're not married, or an ex to her indicted sister-in-law Diana Palin are
you? Were you on Norm Coleman's legal team that got kicked to the curb this
morning? I know you're busy stuffing the trunk with teabags, and haven't
been able to learn the basics of Vista or any other software.

CH
 
M

Mike Hall - MVP

Chad Harris said:
Richard--

After I posted screenshots and "how tos" that might well work for them to
get their Vistas back intact basically promoting tools made by Microsoft,
specifically Startup Repair,(including 3 Bootrec switches from its cmd
prompt, system restore from Startup Repair's menu, and the F8 Windows
Advanced Options where 3 of them offer the opportunity to use System
Restore. I would note that I've seen for whatever reason, System Restore
may work from one of those 4 options, and not the other 3. I include
recommendations from Last Known Good Configuration (LKGC) although
statistically that registry snapshot is a "hail Mary pass." If they
rarely have a Vista DVD, then I'd include doing a repair install or an in
place upgrade as well. Most OEM pc buyers don't get the OS DVD, much less
than 1% in fact.

I've noticed lately after I take the time and trouble to post screenshots
and detailed links with directions, often from Microsoft on how to use
these Microsoft tools, some brain surgeon will pop up and brilliantly say
something in one short sentence glib like (near direct quotes) without
providing any substantive help because they don't know how to help:

"Don't waste your time; format the box."

"Don't waste your time; call HP."

"Don't waste your time; use the recovery discs--they work for me"

"Don't waste your time use the recovery partition."

Or as Malke said hours ago and he should know better to a college student
whose recovery disk failed:

"That's not a Vista issue."

Let's see: Microsoft thinks it's not a Vista issue to repair Vista so
strongly that they went out of their way to provide the way to make a
Vista Repair disc in Vista SP1 and every build of every OS and every
Service Pack after Vista SP1 (as you'll see when Vista SP2 or Win 7 RTMs
or as you've already seen).

Boy that helps the hell out of the poster doesn't it? Let me ask you
something. Given the fact that MSFT got some of their best and brightest
to develop repair tools that are available from Vista even when the
individual does not have a Vista DVD, do you believe MSFT thinks providing
those Tools on Vista from Redmond teams is not a Vista issue?

Then why the hell did the make the Windows Advanced Options Menu and
Startup Repair available to everyone for free as of Vista SP1?

Why did they make the Recovery Console (poorly understood by most end
users) and currently gone?

Why did the Win RE team post directions to install Win RE's tools on the
OS on their blog back on January 12, 2007 at the link below?

http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/archive/2007/01/12/how-to-install-winre-on-the-hard-disk.aspx

http://blogs.msdn.com/winre/archive/2006/12/12/creating-winre-using-waik.aspx

I think I have Exhibits "A" and "B" that Microsoft feels repairing the OS
is an OS issue and they damn well put their repair tools in the OS over a
year ago in April 2008 and they plan on keeping them there in the next OS
because I'm looking at them.

I'd put Malke's nasty comment up as the most ridiculous comment I've seen
in the history of newsgroups or forums. That was simply an absurd thing
to say, and it wouldn't help the OP a scintilla.

I'd pose this question. What the hell kind of issue is it? Microsoft
knows well that these Recovery Disks are pieces of crap. I saw a lot of
Beta testers tell them over and over to do something about it. And guess
what? They friggin' did.

They accepted the fact that they and the OEMs weren't going to put out the
money to ever give away the OS DVD, and before it the XP CD. So they put
a tool in the Windows OS beginning with Vista SP1 to provide the panoply
of repair tools that they offer on that DVD.

All this displays is pure ignorance of the tools available/ a bad
attitude, or the quintessence of both.

The idea of posting in this group is to fix a broken OS (often that won't
boot) or to fix a problem where someone can't it, or to fix a problem
where a boot has been hidden because say the BCD or MBR has been
overwritten by a subsequent boot in a dual boot/multiboot situation with
different OS's on the box, some from MSFT, sometimes from MSFT and Linux.

Telling the person coming here for help that it's not a Vista problem is
like telling a person coming to a hospital ER bleeding profusely from the
chest or abdomen that "it's not a hospital problem--go back and find your
mother."

As I said a while ago to Malke:

Malkesoft doesn't see repairing Vista the best way as a Vista problem, but
Micrososft sure as hell does and they proved it here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

I thought it was hilarious when Malke said when the Recovery Disks don't
work, it's not a Vista or MSFT issue. That's absurd. If that's true then
why did MSFT, realizing that the OEM recovery disks/partitions don't work,
make Startup Repair available with Vista SP1? You think that was by
accident? But it seems they did it so quietly (it's not mentioned in any
MSKB I can find nor in the SP1 release notes nor in Vista Help articles
either from the OS or on the web anywhere).

I think it was because a lot of us urged MSFT during the Vista Beta to
make Startup Repair available when OEM partners refused to ship a Vista
OS. Note below that Dell's Media Chief promised he would ship a Vista OS
DVD with every box Dell sold. They aren't doing that tonight and haven't
been doing it.

With all respect due to anyone this is pure ignorance to the 64th power.
Why in the hell would anyone urge someone who needs help to do this, when
Microsoft has busted their butts to make tools far superior with
developers and PMs who know far more about lower level booting at Redmond
like Jim Allchin, like Steve Sinofsky and their teams?

Let me put it another way. Richard Urban loves Acronis, but in this
situation I'm taking it off the table. Why do I say that Richard? A lot
of these people have not backed up. Most of them if not all of them who
come here for help don't have Acronis. Most of them aren't knowledgeable
and experienced Windows mavens and enthusiasts who are also professionals
***like you are who fix people with TLC every day***. And as some of
them say, they aren't very familiar with computer fixing. So if I say to
you, Richard:

Here's an HP box. Or a Sony box, or an Acer or an Asus notebook. With it
came Recovery Disks, or a recovery partition. Malke seemed to imply for
example that in his hands, the recovery disks always work. I'm willing to
bet that I can take any box with a Vista or Windows 7 OS. I can hand you
or Malke the OEM recovery discs, or an OEM recovery partition (take both
of them) and I'll use MSFT's tools.

Keep in mind Richard, that thanks to what MSFT Win RE teams and the
Storage Team and teams from the servers did in Vista SP1, there is now the
ability (free) for anyone to make a Repair Disk that has the exact same
bits on it that a Vista Retail RTM has for repair. I realize the nuance
in VSS in system restore that exists between some versions of Vista, but
that's really another issue and not too relevant here.

Do you want to choose the recovery discs/partition over Startup Repair and
its options, or F8 and its options? That would seem ludicrous.

But what these posters who have posted in the last 24 hours on the setup
group seem to be saying is LOL

"This guy giving you instructions for Startup Repair or F8 is nuts. Don't
waste your time. Either use the Recovery Disks and if they don't work
wipe the box or call HP."

And who the hell do they get when the end users "call HP" or "MSFT" for
that matter. They don't get the engineers who have degrees in computer
science from high quality schools who dot MSFT campuses and abound at
Redmond who work with CTO's on custom installations for enterprises and
midlevel enterprises, and I know some of those.

They get 5 cities in India and people from Tata, Convergys of Ohio, and
other tech support puppy mills who are low waged butts in seats who also
don't speak English intelligibly for the most part, and don't know jack
about fixing Office or Vista or XP and soon Windows 7 or other software
from MSFT. And if you want to find a subject that a softie will profess
complete ignorance about, it's their phone support for end users. It's a
complete "see no evil here no evil paradigm" yet they'll always say in
some flowerly tone that we want the best experience possible for our
customers. You betcha goshdarnit. But they aren't getting it when they
phone MSFT for support and anyone with a heart that beats knows that.

It's a waste of time to call them. The end user gets a much higher
quality of help from the contributors here. They get Richard Urban don't
they? And they get the rest of us. So you tell me:

What kind of post basically says "Screw the guy who showed you how to use
the tools from the Vista teams who developed Win RE and are experts at low
level boot issues, storage issues, the server teams at Redmond who
developed these tools"--just use the recovery partition or "take your
computer into the store."

I have a dose of the real world. A lot of these people are kids in
college like the one who posted yesterday or in this economy they can't
afford to have someone pull their school work off a hard drive. If you
call some of the national services who do this their average price is
$1600 bucks. These kids aren't Don Trump's kids--they don't have that
kind of money.

And most importantly, many of them already tried the Recovery
partitions/discs and they simply couldn't cut it.

But they did not know they might well be able to recover their OS with the
tools MSFT made for them, and that MSFT offers a way to make a startup
repair disk starting with Vista SP1. I haven't seen mention of it on
these two groups, but maybe I missed it the last few months when I wasn't
monitoring them. It's been available for nearly a year when Vista RTM'd
SP1 in early April and then had to add some bits to make it work.

And besides the fact that the OEM recovery disks/partitions don't work a
high percentage of the time, what happens to all their documents,
settings, pics, music, videos they want and need to get back. If they are
restored to factory settings when the OEM recovery disks/partitions work,
what happens to the stuff they wanted to save? It just went bye bye.

The Startup Repair/aka WinRE tools and the F8 tools at the Windows
Advanced Options Menu, don't lose all this work that's vital for them.
If they have the Vista DVD and this is a small percentage of people who
buy it on their pc, then they have the additional option of trying a
repair install. It eliminates the chance that these individuals who can't
afford $1600 bucks from a professional as someone LOL out of contact with
reality who is an MVP recommended a couple nights ago to a college
student.

Acronis True Image

From Richard Urban:

"I have never - EVER - had a failure on any computer that I work on
(hundreds) using Acronis TrueImage - either creating an image or restoring
an image. This is what **I** consider a recovery disk (image).

But Richard, most of the people who post here for help

1) Don't have Acronis True Image
2) Haven't backed up although we urge them to repeatedly as do many
websites despite the relatively easy backup modalities in Vista
3) Have already seen recovery disks/partitions fail

From what you've typed, Richard, it's evident that you'll stand behind
your customers, look out for them, and do everything you can to help them
backup/repair their systems. The service you offer is the quality that
any customer wants to have, and they are very lucky to have your help, in
what seems to be a boutique service that you run spending a lot of time
and truly caring for your customers.

I appreciate your recounting your experience with Acronis Richard, but
thousands of threads here, and tens of thousands of people have had a much
different experience. Acronis in your hands obviously seems to work very
well.

Acronis Official Forums

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=64

As I said, two of the main "common denominator" issues for these people is
making a boot disc that works, and recovering from the Acronis backups
that they make because the .tibs get corrupted.

I've always made it a point to have every ATI version, but I've never
needed them. Backup to media or a hard drive is more reliable for me, and
I don't have to take the time to try to ID files and folders or to
decompress them from a .tib that might be corrupted.

If you google you can find infinite hits for people who can't make any of
Acronis' options work.

I realize Acronis has had a large number of accolades and satisfied
customers, and is considered the Geek imaging option of choice for a lot
of people. I'm glad it works well for you and the people who value it and
its tools.

I haven't felt the need though I have it and study its new features every
year, to use Acronis. I haven't had an operating system on any of the 4-6
boots I normally have going that I couldn't repair go South. Much of the
time, I break a conservative rule and I have multiple Beta apps on Betas.
The reason for that is that I love to see what's new from MSFT or other
3rd party apps, including Office 14 now in Alpha which will be Office
2010, and Win 7. The time sequence forces me to put Betas on Betas and I
upgrade from Betas as the builds progress because I like to see the new
features. I know the characteristics of interim builds that won't see the
light of day, but I like finding bugs and making suggestions hoping to get
my input into the OS or Office. I also realize that some interim builds
represent two steps forward and three steps back for specific features,
but of course that's the nature of Beta.

When the OS or Office RTMs, then I move to an RTM for more stability and
the newest features, but soon it will have a Beta SP on it and a lot of
3rd party betas. I don't bother to make test boots, because I fell like I
can get out of any problem that comes up using the tools that MSDN or MSFT
has available like Startup Repair, Bootrec switches, or SubInACL. I don't
think I'm grandiosely saying that my boots are indestructible, but from
not knowing the Start Button from my belly button years ago, I've learned
enough to make fixes fairly easy for me.

Despite the fact that I have Beta on Beta for much of the time until an
RTM build is available, what works for me is to backup directly to DVD
(using no Backup mechanism) and to an external HD. I don't have to worry
about compressions corrupting, and WYSIWYG

The main point I'm trying to make here is that there seems lately to be a
pandemic of "helpers" here including some MVPs who at the slightest hint
of a problem booting Vista, tell the people who come for help to turn tail
and wipe the box or to use either two poor choices, a recovery partition
or OEM recovery discs.

It frankly seems ridiculous that all the people who are doing this seem to
have the thesis that Vista has no tools and the recovery OEM discs/or OEM
partitions are the answer(some hidden, some not which confuse a lot of end
users). This is why you have a current post on the setup group where
someone's uncle wiped the recovery partiton along with his box with
"killdisk" although I can't imagine why someone would read the description
of the software, let alone the name and think it was some kind of Rx for
repair. The uncle didn't know how to get into the notebook after losing
his password, and it would have been great if he'd come here for help, but
unfortunately he didn't.)

You've been helping on these threads for years, and I have as well,
although I got involved with some elections for months and spent my time
there. There are a lot of posts where those two OEM modalities just don't
work. I helped on the XP groups as you did, and on Microsoft chats and
other community forums for years, and I wish I had a nickel for all the
people that I helped fix who had *ALREADY TRIED* the OEM disc or partition
and got nada/zip/nowhere. That's the point when they posted for help. On
the chats that used to be available many of us spent literally hours
helping these people use the F8 options, or my favorite during my time on
the XP groups and chats, an XP Repair Install (often called an Inplace
Upgrade--in fact there are MSKBs with both names in the title and they do
the same thing the same way). MVPs Doug Knox and Kelly Theriott often
referenced this; it was my first choice for a repair when people had the
XP CD (and most of them of course did not).

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/helpandsupport/learnmore/tips/doug92.mspx

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/meetexperts/knox.mspx

Doug Knox: How Do I do a Repair Install
http://www.dougknox.com/xp/tips/xp_repair_install.htm

How to perform an in-place upgrade (reinstallation) of Windows
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/315341

In my hands fixing XP no boots or systemic problems for these people, and
people live, the best efficacy was for ***an XP repair install/inplace
upgrade***, but they needed to get their hands on an XP DVD. And to
reference Acronis, when they came for help, they hadn't used it and hadn't
backed up. XP's backup left much to be desired but that's been discussed
and for another time.

300 + MSFT OEM named partners weren't about to help them get one, so they
were on their own to buy one.

I have documentation from Dell (Dell's Lionel Manchaca, Digital Media
Manager for Dell @ Roundrock--15 year Dell Employee, that promised when
Vista was about to RTM 1/30/07 that they were going to give each person
who bought a Dell a genuine Microsoft Vista DVD, but friends of mine who
have recently bought Dell haven't gotten them so I don't know what's up
there. With spare time, I'll tweet him or call him and find out what
happened to break his promise.

Lionel Manchaca's Broken Promise
http://direct2dell.org/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx

Ask Lionel Manchaca why he broke the promise above
http://twitter.com/LionelatDell

Lionel Manchaca wrote at this link:
http://direct2dell.org/one2one/archive/2006/10/17/3132.aspx


Other users have expressed concern about not having the operating system
reinstallation CD when they need it. When ordering a new machine, all
consumers and corporate customers can opt for the Windows CD for around
$10. Additionally, since July 2004, most new PCs (Dell gaming systems all
ship with the OS CD)come pre-loaded with a disk partition that contains PC
Restore, an applcation that allows users to reinstall system software
quickly. See these instructions for how to use PC Restore to reinstall the
operating system and Dell factory-installed applications in about 10
minutes.

Manchaca then crossed this out and wrote what's below:

"Update: Thanks to Direct2Dell reader Steven and a couple of Dell
employees for pointing out a mistake I made in my original post. When I
wrote this, the OS media was listed as an option in the configuration for
$0. I mis-read the number, and for that mistake, I apologize. Also,
though this been in the works for some time before now, it's now official.
For U.S. consumer and small business customers, all systems will now ship
with an operating system disc. This change will take effect in Europe by
later next month. In Asia, things are unchanged-we've always shipped OS
discs with systems there."

MSFT's OEM VP has historically concurred in this policy through the reign
of now departed Scott DiValerio who incidentally refused all calls to
discuss the issue. I saw DiValerio's employee get booed at a System
Builders meeting by System Builders over this very issue. A group of
System Builders wanted to know why they were required to provide the
actual Microsoft XP or Vista DVD to customers, and the 300+ OEM partners
were not.

The sassy glib answer was that when they sold 50,000 boxes, the same
exemptions would be extended to them. I can document this meeting, I
remember it as if it were 2 minutes ago. The rest of his answers to
questions were frankly pathetic, and not anywhere on a par with the
hundreds of MSFT presenters I've had the pleasure to watch.

The boos he received were richly deserved, and had the guy been reporting
to me in any venue and any profession, I'd have fired him on the spot both
for his arrogant answer to MSFT Partners who were also customers, and his
simple reprehensible lack of knowledge of hdw and software unusual for a
MSFT presenter. I thought he was a poor representative of MSFT
considering the high quality of hires for all their teams and many people
a lot of us know at Redmond and other MSFT campuses.

Best,

CH


A failing recovery disk is not a Vista issue.. it is a bad DVD or failing
optical drive..
 
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C

Chad Harris

Hi Mike--

I have honestly installed so many builds on my four main boots since Vista
upgrading them frequently when there is a Win 7 build that I would have to
install Vista on a partition to see. But if you say that it's not there,
then it's not there.

Please take a quick look at this thread on a technet group from last year.
I know it started asking where this tool was, but then note what C4
Consulting says:

http://social.technet.microsoft.com.../thread/bfb64e50-aacf-4253-894e-b9c3df52860e/

"Just in case anybody is still trying to get this program to work it is
possible. you need to grab recdisc.exe from the SP1 RTM version recdisc.exe.
Then open up the c:/windows/system32 folder. right click on the recdisc.exe
file and change the security settings. (right click on the file then)
Select the "Security" tab and click "Advanced".
Select the "Owner" tab and click "Edit."
you first need to add your user account under ownership to full access. then
(from the main file security setting screen click edit to) change the user
access rights to full.
once this is done copy the rec.exe file accross into the system32 folder and
replace. double click to run or create a shortcut on the desktop if you want
to run it easily.
It's worked 100% on all the systems I have done this on. If you would like
the recdisc.exe file feel free to e-mail me and I will gladly send it to
you. quite happy to give a more detailed rundown if anybody need it. Hope
this helps"


Can you look at one of your Vista boots and see if
C:\Windows\System32\recdisc.exe is present?

If it is, then I find it awfully strange that they hid it like an Easter
Egg. I'd really appreciate your letting me know (or I guess I can check out
a couple of my neighbors' boxes who have Vista or the next notebook I see
with someone (hopefully with their consent) :>)

I took this screenshot from a very very recent build of Windows 7, because I
didn't have Vista handy to take the shot from it and it's sure in every
build I've had of Windows 7. And I wouldn't knowingly promote piracy, but I
am under the impression since this tool is in Win 7 that MSFT had it and
kept it.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

http://www.downloadsquad.com/2008/0...ion-cd-you-can-still-download-a-vista-recover

If it's not there in SP1, then the 64 dollar question I'd love to ask people
at Redmond and I will try to, is why in the world did they remove it and
then put it back in Win 7. I had Vista SP2, but I formatted it off my box
so I don't know whether it had it there or not given what you've said. I
don't want to accuse someone of something that might not be the case, but
has MSFT been awfully quiet about this because they dindn't want to dent
their sales of Vista Retail or Vista volume licenses if people knew they
could get this tool for free? I'd sure like to know what went on behind the
scenes at MSFT if this is either snipped from Vista SP1 RTM or hidden in
System 32. It makes me remind myself to always look in System 32 and see
what utility might be hiding there that I haven't heard about!

Why in the world would they hide a great tool? Has anyone mentioned this to
you or have you been able to discuss it (without asking you to discuss
something you might have shared at an MVP meeting at Redmond or something
similar?)

I know people on those teams and in the next couple days I'm going to be
asking them what happened to it to be either

1) hidden in System 32 in RTM
2) Snipped from RTM
3) Almost completely not mentioned in any MSKB, Vista Help, Technet or MSDN
article I can find. I also read the Vista team blog pretty regularly, and I
don't remember its mention. I can always post it on one of Sinofsky's blogs
on his Engineering Win 7 blog and see if someone will pick up on it. Here's
one instance when posting it on a twitter thread of the right person might
get a response.

Thanks,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Mike--

"A failing recovery disk is not a Vista issue.. it is a bad DVD or failing
optical drive."

With all respect due, I've seen many times where that isn't the case. I've
seen many many failing recovery discs where the optical drive worked
perfectly, before and after the recovery disk failed either for viewing a
disc or burning.

And my question would always be in case you want to entertain the hypothesis
that all these people who post here and in the setup group have bad OEM
recovery disks from the multiple OEMs who supply them:

1) After your OEM disk/partition to recover failed, how did things work out
when you tried all the tools [I showed the person needing help].

These are the modalities I always offer that are :Made in Redmond
Washington on the MSFT campus.

1) 3 system restore doors at Win Adv Options
2) 1 LKGC at Win Adv Options
3) Making a Startup Repair Disk from the utility in the Vista
C:\Windows\System32\recdisc.exe folder or downloading it from NeoWin or
places like the Download squad link
4) After the disk is made, Startup Repair, the Bootrec switches, or System
Restore from Startup Repair.
5) If they could get hold of the DVD I'd offer an upgrade install aka a
repair install of Vista using the DVD.

That's 6 Mike without a Vista DVD and 7 if they have it if in fact they have
a bad recovery disk. Statistically the number of posts I've fixed on these
2 groups and many other forums and in person where the recovery disk did not
work after maticulously cleaning it and when I knew the optical drive did
work and could quickly test it, doesn't support that so many people are
getting defective OEM recovery disks, but again if someone I'm helping tells
me that, I'm going to be quick to offer them 6 ways to repair from Startup
Repair and F8 that don't depend on that disk and comes from Microsoft.

Microsoft may for some really interesting reason be hiding the fact it's
there but I'm not when I'm helping them. BTW why do you think it hasn't
been mentioned at all on this group or the Vista Setup group with so many
MVPs flocking around and Darrell Gorter[MSFT] generously giving his time to
help for many days in the setup group in when Vista RTM was new? I'm sure
Darrell would know the answers to what seems to be a mystery to me.

Please take a look at my other post to you.

Thanks,

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Hi Steve--

I always value Mike's input, but I've never understood the convention to
always snip the post you're answering (it has a newgroup "term name" because
when they're long or short they get in the way of finding the comment. I
know my post was freaking long, but I wanted to make the point that MSFT
offers tools for people to fix, Steve. I just answer the post and then if
someone wants to see what the post was I answered they can scroll down
easily enough.

Do me a favor, Steve and tell me if if you see this on your Vista box or
boxes:

Can you check in your Vista which I assume is SP1, and see if the place I'm
showing in this screenshot from Win 7 is there? I formatted all my Vista
boots which were SP2 and I don't know if they were there.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

Could you go to C:\Windows\System32\recdisc.exe and tell me if the utility
is there? I think it is but at this hour I can't wake someone up to check
their Vista box and all my boots are Win 7. I'll try to check some Vista
boxes tomorrow.

If it's not on All Programs and is hidden like an Easter Egg in System 32,
that's strange to say the least. It's on the All Programs menu in Win 7--so
I assumed it had to be in SP1.

See C4 Consulting's comment in gray here:

http://social.technet.microsoft.com.../thread/bfb64e50-aacf-4253-894e-b9c3df52860e/

Thanks,

CH



Thanks,

CH
 
G

Gordon

Chad Harris said:
Hi Steve--

I always value Mike's input, but I've never understood the convention to
always snip the post you're answering

Because some or most of the replied-to post may be irrelevant to the
reply.....
 
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R

Richard Urban

It (making a recovery CD) is not in any copy of Vista that I have installed
that I have applied all Window updates to!

--

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience
 
C

Chad Harris

I take your point Gordon, and can't remember the terms for the different
posting conventions that I've seen batted about on these newsgroups in past
years, but for me, not snipping and letting the person have the option to
scroll works best.

Occasionally, I'll see a reply but not the OP. and I've never quite figured
that out. It happens whether I set Win Live Mail (I had Windows Mail show up
once in Windows 7 and how that happened I'll never know in one of the very
early builds, and I can search for old emails that were in the Win Mail
format and they will come up as Win live mail which is helpful.

In Win Live Mail it does not matter if you click Sync and choose new
messages or all messages as far as I can tell. I liked the OE and WinMail
newsgroup reader features better, but I don't have that choice anymore. Win
Live Mail seems to be the Win7 MSFT NNTP reader you have to use.

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Thanks much Richard. Believe me it is in Windows 7; I realize Win 7 is both
Beta and CPP, so the CPP aspect makes it permissible to post info that's not
non-disclose whichever is the term for that MSFT uses that I can't think of
at the moment because it's late.

But could you do me a favor and look here and see if it is buried in your
System 32 folder. Of course if you have multiple partitions C:\ may not be
the drive letter but please look here and tell me what you see if it's
convenient:

C:\Windows\System32\recdisc.exe

If it's not on All Programs and is hidden like an Easter Egg in System 32,
that's strange to say the least. It's on the All Programs menu in Win 7--so
I assumed it had to be in SP1.

See C4 Consulting's comment in gray here, and after you check that file path
to System 32 for recdisc please tell me what you think is going on.

http://social.technet.microsoft.com.../thread/bfb64e50-aacf-4253-894e-b9c3df52860e/

It seems from what I'm now hearing (you and Mike Hall assure me it's been
snipped from the Vista SP1 beta to RTM and I'm betting you find it in System
32.

If that's the case, then can somebody please explain to me Microsoft's
approach. If I have something that's going to give access to my customers
to save their OS information and to repair it, and I'm Microsoft, why in the
world would I hide the tool in System 32 and remove it from the All Programs
List. I remember when MSFT first released SP1 there was a glitch that they
corrected about April 8 of last year--they had to add a file to the download
as I recall, but that's not on point to this.

Or let me pitch another analogy. If I were a doctor, and my patient was
critically ill, and I had the injection in the ER to save them, would it
make sense for me to hide the injection in the treatment room and make the
sick patient find it. because that's precisely what MSFT appears to be doing
and that is incredible to me or maybe not. Given some time I'm going to
find out what's going on if in fact they have buried it in Vista SP1 System
32.

Check out this screenshot from Win 7. As I think I told you, I appreciate
you guys looking for me because it's early morning and I don't have any
Vista boots anymore--they're all Win 7.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

Thanks very much,

CH
 
T

the wharf rat

Hi Steve--

I always value Mike's input, but I've never understood the convention to
always snip the post you're answering (it has a newgroup "term name" because

The reason for that is that news articles are threaded - they have
links to parent articles in the conversation - so including the entire
content of the article you're replying to is very inefficient. If I post
10 lines and you add 10 lines and the next guy adds 10 lines insetad of 10
+10 +10 lines of traffic and storage we have 10 +20 + 30... It doesn't
seem like much until you realize that there's millions of the things...
 
T

the wharf rat

I take your point Gordon, and can't remember the terms for the different
posting conventions that I've seen batted about on these newsgroups in past

There's the correct way, and everything else.

Top posting goes in the "everything else" category, BTW.
 
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C

Chad Harris

The reason for that is that news articles are threaded - they have
links to parent articles in the conversation - so including the entire
content of the article you're replying to is very inefficient. If I post
10 lines and you add 10 lines and the next guy adds 10 lines insetad of 10
+10 +10 lines of traffic and storage we have 10 +20 + 30... It doesn't
seem like much until you realize that there's millions of the things...

It's been a long day for me but I take it you mean just typing my post or
top posting is inefficient and takes up a lot of storage space it shouldn't
eventually.

How about what I'm doing here?

CH
 
R

Richard Urban

Not their either (Vista Ultimate 64 bit).

It **IS** in the system32 folder of my Vista Home Basic (32 bit) and Vista
Home Premium (32 bit) installs but is dysfunctional under each copy. It
throws up a UAC prompt and then nothing.

And yes, it works under Windows 7.
 
C

Chad Harris

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience



"Not there either (Vista Ultimate 64 bit).

It **IS** in the system32 folder of my Vista Home Basic (32 bit) and Vista
Home Premium (32 bit) installs but is dysfunctional under each copy. It
throws up a UAC prompt and then nothing.
And yes, it works under Windows 7."
__________________________

Thanks Richard. I think the key to getting it to work in Vista is to simply
edit at the security tab by right clicking it>properties>security tab, and
you could edit it more than one way and get it to work. In Windows 7 it
works perfectly without any UAC tweaking, from All Programs>Maintenance, but
for some reason you won't get it if you type Maintenance in the search box
and click the folder when it pops up from there:

In one of your Vistas try this: Right click>properties>security
tab>advanced>owner>edit>add your user account under ownership to full
access>change user access rights to full or you can also just right
click>main security screen>edit>type users in the box>okay>put check marks
in full control>close>reopen>it'll work.

You can then copy it to the desktop and/or pin it to the Start Menu for
convenience.

So now my mission is to ask MSFT why they have a very useful program hidden
in the System 32 folder that requires UAC tweaking at the security tab to
make it work, and why whoever owned it as developers and Product Managers
let this happen. To me, it is very sloppy and irresponsible of them, and I
don't know what word I'd use to describe taking it off the All Programs
Menu.

I thought that's why they have Beta Testing and crow about tens of thousands
of bugs tested on thousands of different hardware form factors. I mean come
on, could they not have tested it once in Vista and I'm going to say it
again.

A Redmond Microsoft team made this. It doesn't work without having
permissions tweaked. It's hidden of all things in System 32 and they aren't
talking about it at MSDN, Technet, the MSKBs, and there is no mention of it
whatsoever in Vista Help. There are TAP testers, tech Beta testers, and
testers at MSFT who get a paycheck.

Why wasn't this RTM'd intuitively? Why was it surgically excised from the
All Programs Menu, Easter Egged at Casa System 32, and a password of sorts
placed on it because non-intuitively the user has to figure out they have to
tweak permissions aka UAC at the Security tab?

I think those are two very reasonable questions. And right now I think this
screenshot describes the situation. I just don't understand the reasoning
behind it and this thing sure as hell was released as a useful utility or
app hidden in System 32 as a bug. It is a very good idea, but there doesn't
seem to have been anyone at Redmond who lifted a finger to Beta test it and
it sure does not seem to have been mentioned to anyone.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chadharris16

It seems to have been treated as Black Ops in "24."

CH
 
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