Nvidia's 'Nalu' vs ATI's 'Ruby'

[NV55]

http://karpo.org/images/Dunno/Ruby.jpg

Nvidia's GeForce 6800 (NV40) 'Nalu' demo consists of 300,000 polygons.
very very impressive shit!

ATI's Radeon X800 (R420) 'Ruby' demo consists of only 80,000 polygons.
however it is also rendering a background with other elements. closer
to what would be in an actual game.

now, console gamers: keep in mind, whatever ATI has been able to come
up with at this point (re: the R420 / Radeon X800) is a stepping stone
to what they'll be able to have in 2005 for Xbox Next, and in 2006 for
GCNext

 

[John Lewis]

http://karpo.org/images/Dunno/Ruby.jpg

Nvidia's GeForce 6800 (NV40) 'Nalu' demo consists of 300,000 polygons.
very very impressive shit!

ATI's Radeon X800 (R420) 'Ruby' demo consists of only 80,000 polygons.
however it is also rendering a background with other elements. closer
to what would be in an actual game.

now, console gamers: keep in mind, whatever ATI has been able to come
up with at this point (re: the R420 / Radeon X800) is a stepping stone
to what they'll be able to have in 2005 for Xbox Next, and in 2006 for
GCNext

Wow............. I am impressed !! Must ask for an advanced
payment of my Social Security to buy these consoles. Both should
sink like rocks if not 100%backward compatible with existing
non-Next software. Also, a huge marketing problem for new software
for the existing consoles after pre-anouncement of the new consoles
if not 100% backward compatible. Let's see Ati and PPC 100%
emulate nVidia Audio/Video and i86. Ati can't even write drivers
that work well with legacy software on the PC.

Liike multiple generations of video camera formats scrapped,
now we have multiple-generation consoles and software scrapped.
The wily consumer will eventually say enough is enough.

At least, with the PC there is some hope of backward compatibility
with older (favorite, classic, nostalgic ) software if not directly,
then with emulators such as DosBox. For the consoles, no hope,
unless it is designed in.

John Lewis

 

[Zackman]

Both should
sink like rocks if not 100%backward compatible with existing
non-Next software.

Like the SNES was backwards compatible with the NES? Like the Dreamcast was
with the Saturn? Like the Gamecube was with the N64? Like the PSX was with
anything?

The PS2 is the only mainstream backwards compatible console, and if you ask
PS2 owners how many of them actually PSX games on their machines, you'll
find the answer is very few.

Besides, I you're actually allowed to KEEP your current console after you
buy a new one! Seriously! I know, too bizarre to be true.

Liike multiple generations of video camera formats scrapped,
now we have multiple-generation consoles and software scrapped.
The wily consumer will eventually say enough is enough.

The "wily consumer" would probably love to have more electronics that are
exactly as functional and relevant and non-obsolete fives years after their
launch as they were the first day they came out. A PS2 game you buy next
year will play on the exact same hardware as the PS2 game you bought three
years ago, and it will run exactly as intended by the developers. How many
other pieces of consumer electronics have a five year lifespan during which
time owners don't need to worry about a better version of the hardware
coming out? Certainly not PC components.

For the consoles, no hope,
unless it is designed in.

Backwards compatiblity looks good on paper, but in reality it's a
non-feature. Why buy that next-gen hardware and then waste it on crappy
looking old-gen games? As soon as there's a large enough library of next-gen
games, nobody who buys a new console is going to care or even necessarily be
aware about the last generation's games. As sales figures clearly show, the
vast majority of people do not buy a new console the first day (or even the
first year) it comes out, and a huge number of people who bought PS2s never
owned original Playstations. So why build in a feature that most owners
aren't going to want or need?

-Z-

 

[Minotaur]

Wow............. I am impressed !! Must ask for an advanced
payment of my Social Security to buy these consoles. Both should
sink like rocks if not 100%backward compatible with existing
non-Next software. Also, a huge marketing problem for new software
for the existing consoles after pre-anouncement of the new consoles
if not 100% backward compatible. Let's see Ati and PPC 100%
emulate nVidia Audio/Video and i86. Ati can't even write drivers
that work well with legacy software on the PC.

Liike multiple generations of video camera formats scrapped,
now we have multiple-generation consoles and software scrapped.
The wily consumer will eventually say enough is enough.

At least, with the PC there is some hope of backward compatibility
with older (favorite, classic, nostalgic ) software if not directly,
then with emulators such as DosBox. For the consoles, no hope,
unless it is designed in.

John Lewis

Maybe so, but...
Take the latest drivers from nVidia for the nForce2,
the very same chipset used in the XBox now. The newer
versions of these drivers, ARE worse than the drivers they had out in
2002! The bugs are jumping out at me here, BSOD's from the Memory
Controller Driver in XP, DD 5.1 audio is broken, etc.
Not happy at all and it isn't a operator error *8) You think nVidia
would have this sorted by now. All they have to do is place each bit
that worked from each set of drivers, into one 'working set'. But guess
I am going to have to do it manualy still...

 

[John Lewis]

Maybe so, but...
Take the latest drivers from nVidia for the nForce2,
the very same chipset used in the XBox now.

Sorry to be picky, but I believe that the Xbox uses an Intel P3
733MHz, not an AMD processor.

The newer
versions of these drivers, ARE worse than the drivers they had out in
2002! The bugs are jumping out at me here, BSOD's from the Memory
Controller Driver in XP, DD 5.1 audio is broken, etc.
Not happy at all and it isn't a operator error *8)

Which motherboard ? It is a nForce2 motherboard, not a nForce ?
The original nForce did have some bad problems.

John Lewis

 

[Asestar]

Nvidia's GeForce 6800 (NV40) 'Nalu' demo consists of 300,000 polygons.

very very impressive shit!

ATI's Radeon X800 (R420) 'Ruby' demo consists of only 80,000 polygons.
however it is also rendering a background with other elements. closer
to what would be in an actual game.

I like the Ruby demo much better As for Nalu, that same character can be
made with 50000-90000 polygons without sacrificing any quality. So just to
showoff nv40, nvidia should have made the scene more complex, or the Nalu a
bit different.

 

[Apollo]

Liike multiple generations of video camera formats scrapped,
now we have multiple-generation consoles and software scrapped.
The wily consumer will eventually say enough is enough.

No they won't, consumers want better hard/software.

At least, with the PC there is some hope of backward compatibility
with older (favorite, classic, nostalgic ) software if not directly,
then with emulators such as DosBox. For the consoles, no hope,
unless it is designed in.

I hope that there is very limited hardware compatibility for future pc
standards, holding onto isa, pci and irqs for compatibility has held the pc
back a lot more than most people realise. I agree with your point about
emulation, I still play Mario on a snes emulator, but compatibility really
does cripple the development of hardware, the pci bus should be dead
already, for example.

 

[malberto]

I think he meant, "GForce". I have a GForce FX5900 and once I installed all
my BIOS updates and motherboard drivers (Intel chipset), my system is
rock-solid! What a machine.

But now after re-reading Minotaur's post, I am totally confused!

 

[Impmon]

The PS2 is the only mainstream backwards compatible console, and if you ask
PS2 owners how many of them actually PSX games on their machines, you'll
find the answer is very few.

Sorry but you forgot Gameboy. GBA is backward compatible with every
GB games ever made and GBC is also backward compatible with older GB
games.

Also Atari 7800 can play 2600. (5200, Colecovision, and
Ilntellivision also plays 2600 via adapter but that's not the same
thing)

Sega Master System also worked with Mark III, SG-1000 and SC-3000 with
an adapter as the cart slot is different but the hardware is the same.

 

[Man Without Hat]

[W]hy build in a feature that most owners aren't going to want or need?

I think I've played less than five PSX games on my PS2 since launch day.

And I've kept my modded PSX for *one* reason only: To play Internal
Section (and maybe Vib-Ribbon).

 

[chrisv]

Backwards compatiblity looks good on paper, but in reality it's a
non-feature. Why buy that next-gen hardware and then waste it on crappy
looking old-gen games?

While I think that all of your points have merit, I don't agree that
it's a total non-issue. For example, the consumer whois making a
choice between, say, the fading but game-rich N64 or the new-fangled
GameCube. If the new machine is backwards compatible, it's a
no-brainer. If it's not, some will opt for the older machine, denying
the new machine of some of those critical first-year sales.

 

[speed of a cheetah]

I think he meant, "GForce". I have a GForce FX5900 and once I installed
all

my BIOS updates and motherboard drivers (Intel chipset), my system is
rock-solid! What a machine.

No he meant Nvidia's "nForce" brand. Its a chipset embedded on to the
motherboard that uses a AMD processor.

 

[somnambulist]

Sorry to be picky, but I believe that the Xbox uses an Intel P3
733MHz, not an AMD processor.

You are indeed correct, but the XBox still uses the NForce chipset.

 

[El Guapo]

While I think that all of your points have merit, I don't agree that
it's a total non-issue. For example, the consumer whois making a
choice between, say, the fading but game-rich N64 or the new-fangled
GameCube. If the new machine is backwards compatible, it's a
no-brainer. If it's not, some will opt for the older machine, denying
the new machine of some of those critical first-year sales.

I would say that's going to be even more of a factor this time around. The
PSX and N64 had some serious flaws that made the jump to this generation a
huge one. Not so this time. Of course, there will be a substantial overall
improvement in graphics, and in what developers can do with real time
lighting, effects, and number of objects on the screen in particular, but
none of that will make P22, GC, or XBox games look really bad in comparison.
They'll still sport very clean images and will still look nice on popular
large TV's, which was not the case with the low res N64 and PSX systems.
The difference will still be obvious, of course, and people will begin to
upgrade and eventually will abandon the old systems, but I think not nearly
as quickly this time. There will still be a lot of interest in playing old
libraries, and filling out collections with games that weren't bought the
first time around.

 

[Asestar]

While I think that all of your points have merit, I don't agree that
Very true indeed. In many countries where gamers don't own a gold mine, the
cost of upgrading a console alone is noticable. So most people would love to
either trade in their existing console, or at least play their existing
games on new console, or both. So yes, it will be an issue, sinse there are
sooo many good PS2 and Xbox games around.

I would say that's going to be even more of a factor this time around. The
PSX and N64 had some serious flaws that made the jump to this generation a
huge one. Not so this time. Of course, there will be a substantial overall
improvement in graphics, and in what developers can do with real time
lighting, effects, and number of objects on the screen in particular, but
none of that will make P22, GC, or XBox games look really bad in comparison.
They'll still sport very clean images and will still look nice on popular
large TV's, which was not the case with the low res N64 and PSX systems.
The difference will still be obvious, of course, and people will begin to
upgrade and eventually will abandon the old systems, but I think not nearly
as quickly this time. There will still be a lot of interest in playing old
libraries, and filling out collections with games that weren't bought the
first time around.

Totally agree there as well. This is also an issue.
Try connecting your radeon96/9800 or Fx57/5900 to tv, enable all goodies in
Nfs-U and run in 800*600 mode. Then switch back to monitor, up the res to
1280 or 1024 and see the huge difference! Try a FPS game like UT2004, and
see even bigger difference. While running on tv, your 2000$ pc with ultimate
hardware looks/perform very similar to 200$ Xbox!

I mean there is a limit on how good graphics can be enjoyed on a tv set and
i must say Xbox and PS2 are damn near that limit. If tv's could display
higher res, than new xbox2 would be much more attractive than xbox1, since a
better/faster gfx chip.

So in order to attract a market, new consoles better be backward compatible,
or have VERY cheap games (highly unlikely).

 

[John Lewis]

You are indeed correct, but the XBox still uses the NForce chipset.

Huh ?

The Xbox uses the NV2A GPU and the MCPX multifunction
interface (including audio) both from nVidia. They were custom-built
parts for the console and any resemblance of the NV2A combo
GPU- Northbridge to the nForce IGP stops at the sharing of some
common internal design ideas.

See:-

http://hackingthexbox.com/

John Lewis

 

[Mr. Brian Allen]

Ati can't even write drivers

that work well with legacy software on the PC.

Hell, ATI can't even write drivers that work well with current software!

 

[Zackman]

Sorry but you forgot Gameboy.

I was talking about home consoles, not handhelds.

Also Atari 7800 can play 2600. (5200, Colecovision, and
Ilntellivision also plays 2600 via adapter but that's not the same
thing)

True, but I said mainstream consoles. I know there were some old consoles
that had backwards compatibility, but the Atari 7800 was barely more than a
blip in the history of game machines. And it sure as heck didn't do anything
to help the 7800, did it?

-Z-

 

[somnambulist]

Huh ?

The Xbox uses the NV2A GPU and the MCPX multifunction
interface (including audio) both from nVidia. They were custom-built
parts for the console and any resemblance of the NV2A combo
GPU- Northbridge to the nForce IGP stops at the sharing of some
common internal design ideas.

See:-

http://hackingthexbox.com/

Thanks John, I stand (partially) corrected then!

 

[Impmon]

I mean there is a limit on how good graphics can be enjoyed on a tv set and
i must say Xbox and PS2 are damn near that limit. If tv's could display
higher res, than new xbox2 would be much more attractive than xbox1, since a
better/faster gfx chip.

HDTV does display higher res but very few people have those TVs.
Current NTSC TV is capable of max of 720x480 so no amount of tweaking
on the system would get past that, and that type of TV is still in
just about every homes.

This does presents a delimia for game developer. Of they try to use
the newer TV standard with higher resolution, very few will buy
becauser not everyone's ready to blow $2000 for a new HDTV. So the
game developers would have to stick with older standard with lower
graphic resolution..