No to product activation

A

Alias

NoStop said:
If you're going to be a smartass, at least learn the proper useage of the
English language.

"Useage"?

If you're going to post on Usenet, at least use a news reader with a
spell check ;-)

Alias
 
H

HeyBub

UVP said:
3. Yes, Microsoft is a monopoly, but being a monopoly is not a crime.

Yes it is dumbass, and Microsoft have already been fined for
monopolistic practices.

No, being a monopoly is not a crime. Monopolies are specifically encouraged
and sanctioned by the very first article in the Constitution (Article 1
Section 8).
 
U

UVP

HeyBub said:
UVP wrote:
No, being a monopoly is not a crime. Monopolies are specifically
encouraged and sanctioned by the very first article in the Constitution
(Article 1 Section 8).
Tell that to the EU. I just read on a web site that Microsoft is expecting
trouble from the EU right about now.
 
H

HeyBub

Alias said:
Matter of opinion.

Heh. No, matter of law. Your local telephone company is a monopoly, as is
your water, sewer, and other public utilities. In small towns, EVERY
business is a monopoly. Almost everything associated with an agency of
government is a monopoly (postal service, fire fighting, schools...).
Fortunately, police work is NOT a monopoly. In my town (Houston) there are
twenty-six police agencies, not counting the feds (various city cops,
transit, university, school, sheriff, constable, airport, tollway, arson,
medical examiner, and so on).
Which clause? For the life of me, I can't find it:


It's for copyrights and patents.

"...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
respective Writings and Discoveries;..."
 
N

NoStop

Heh. No, matter of law. Your local telephone company is a monopoly, as is
your water, sewer, and other public utilities. In small towns, EVERY
business is a monopoly. Almost everything associated with an agency of
government is a monopoly (postal service, fire fighting, schools...).
Fortunately, police work is NOT a monopoly. In my town (Houston) there are
twenty-six police agencies, not counting the feds (various city cops,
transit, university, school, sheriff, constable, airport, tollway, arson,
medical examiner, and so on).



It's for copyrights and patents.

"...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
respective Writings and Discoveries;..."

That has absolutely nothing to do with monopolies. I can hold a copyright on
my creation - for example a photo that I take. That doesn't make me a
monopoly.


--
The ULTIMATE Windoze Fanboy:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2370205018226686613

A 3D Linux Desktop (video) ...


View Some Common Linux Desktops ...
http://shots.osdir.com/
 
C

cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)

No, it is not. What happens when one is a monopoly, is that one has
to act within certain constraints that would otherwise not apply,
because it is leveraging monopoly status that can be a crime.

That's why it's important to preserve at least some sort of token
competition, so that by claiming one is not a monopoly, one is thus
free to act more agressively than one would be allowed otherwise.
There is no "Anti-trust" act. Perhaps you mean the "Sherman Anti-Trust Act,"
the "Clayton Act," or the "Wilson Tariff Act." However, all "trust" acts
deal with collusion amongst erstwhile competitors, not monopolies.

Yes, there are concerns when a few number of competitors act in
concert as a cabal, thus subverting the hoped-for consumer benefits
that competition can provide. This is more likely when there are a
limited number of competitors, but can also happen when there are
barriers to entry for new competitors.

For example, a business sector may have a representitive or regulatory
body that sets standards for practice. By manipulating these
standards and/or creating loopholes whereby members can be expelled
from the sector, the body can force even a large number of competitors
to act in lock-step in an anti-competitive manner.

When one is a monopoly, other kinds of abuse are possible, beyond
(say) simple price fixing. One is in unilaterally dictating terms of
use, such as EULAs or OEM agreements (price is just one highly-visible
example of this). Another is to leverage a monopoly in one sector to
grab market gains in other sectors, or to cross-subsidize entry into
these sectors at low price points that are untenable for competitors
who do not have an uncontested hi-margin product to fund it.
Even so, being a monoply is not a crime per se, in fact monopolies are
explicitly sanctioned and encouraged by the very first Article in the
Constitution (Article I, Section 8).

In certain sectors, a single standard (monopoly?) is highly desirable.
Whenever PC technology has vaulted forwards, it has been due to the
creation of standards that provide a solid base for freer competitive
development. Examples:
- software, when PC closed out a plethora of home computer tribes
- hardware, when the "clones" kicked IBM's PS/2 into orbit
- apps, when Windows standardised the UI
- games, when DirectX standardized 3D and sound APIs
- fast graphic cards, when VL and then PCI standardised the bus
- hard drive capacity and speed, when IDE standardised controller
Examples are not limited to PCs; the EU and AU are both attempts to
achieve economies of scale to match the USA's advantage of economic
co-operation between states.
Microsoft is a practical monopoly, true, but there is a force equally as
powerful that serves as a Microsoft competitor: Microsoft itself. Unless
Microsoft creates new products, to compete against its existing offerings,
the revenue stream essentially becomes a trickle.

There is scope for the artificial creation of demand; at some point,
one might expect PCs to be fast enough to do whatever's required and
to have had sufficient years of development to perfect core
applications such as word processing and spreadsheets.

One can create new value by using new power to do new things, e.g.
harness those 6 sound jacks as a 4-in, 2-out multitrack recording
system that puts "studio recording" within reach of consumers.

Or one can glitz up content, e.g. movies within web pages and business
documents, etc. That may work, up to a point.

But in practice, the need to fix exploitable defects is what keeps
developers occupied - and this diverts resources from the development
of new products. Users rightly expect bug-fixes to be free, so if the
balance between pre-and post-release development flips from 80/20%
over to 20/80%, there will either be a lot less new sware and revenue,
or higher staffing and resource costs to maintain the same output of
new products. That not only trims margins, but increases the risk
should a major roll-out fail to generate expected uptake and sales.

The current "pay once to use forever, don't pay again unless you like
the features of the upgrade" model is effective where costs can be
predicted, and makes sense when most development costs were
pre-release. That worked with the Win9x pattern of a new OS every 2-3
years, with each new release being a pay-for feature-driven upgrade.
It works less well with the pattern of NT releases; new versions every
5 years or more, with multiple free Service Pack re-writes in between.

Sidebar: This may be one reason MS is becoming insistent on locking
OEM Windows to the original PC, so that the 3-year hardware cycle
ensures new license sales even if it's the same OS, i.e. so that the
old PC's OS is not re-used on the new one?


Now you can posit that the break-fix cycle is artificially created to
obsolete software more quickly, and exploit a future "rental slavery"
(or "software as a service") model. I have some doubts about that,
for two reasons; one, the current impact that huge and ongoing
post-release development must be having on MS, and two, the fact that
non-MS OSs and applications are experiencing a similar need to release
regular bugfixes and patches.

Here's where it gets tricky... software vendors including MS may need
to change the model from buy-upgrades-if-you-like to "rental slavery",
in order to link revenue to post-release development - but how can a
new relationship between vendor and user be fairly created, if the
vendor's a monopolist and the user has no power at all?

The *real* monopoly lock-in with Windows is not that it has a large %
of share in the OS market - it is that the bulk of applications that
people use are written for (and dependent on) Windows. Changing OS
usually means dumping the applications users want to use, which locks
in those users. Changing OS for application vendors means huge
re-development and skills challenges at the same time they slough off
their entire existing user base.


So one might say, "let Windows be a monopoly OS, but because it is so,
we should empower stronger user input and control over EULAs, etc.".
That's all well and good, but how do you represent users without such
a body being hijacked by a cartel of anyone-but-MS vendors, corporate
IT professionals, or both? It's worth looking at what these interest
groups want, what they have tried to do in the past, etc. before
assuming a bunch of unknown devils would be a nice change.

One thing we (as geeks) need to do, is get our fave social activists
informed on the dangerous issues and trends in the infosphere, and
ensure that what they suggest makes technical sense. No-one wants a
"horse designed by a committee", but we can't afford to let the
software industry unilaterally design the society and laws of
tomorrow... which is what we are allowing by duhfault.

I use the term "industry" rather than "Microsoft" deliberately,
because in the ways that matter most, the entire industry (going
beyond software to hardware and non-code content) seems to be in
lock-step with the same (inherently user-hostile) agendas.

Ah, you know what this post's tag is gonna be...


------------------ ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
The rights you save may be your own
 
T

Tarquin Mills

In message said:
Heh. No, matter of law. Your local telephone company is a monopoly, as is
your water, sewer, and other public utilities. In small towns, EVERY
business is a monopoly. Almost everything associated with an agency of
government is a monopoly (postal service, fire fighting, schools...).
Fortunately, police work is NOT a monopoly. In my town (Houston) there are
twenty-six police agencies, not counting the feds (various city cops,
transit, university, school, sheriff, constable, airport, tollway, arson,
medical examiner, and so on).

The following are not monopolies:-
Telephone (BT,NTL,Onetel,Nextel, Talk Talk etc)
Electricity (Seeboard, EDF, PowerGen etc)
Gas (Amarada,Centrica,Scottish Power etc)
It's for copyrights and patents.

"...To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for
limited times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Microsoft monopoly is running indefinitely.
 
T

Tarquin Mills

In message said:
Let's see how long it takes MS's legal department in the UK to track
you down through your ISP.

Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 23:04:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.31.182.181
X-Trace: newsfe4-gui.ntli.net 1151795091 82.31.182.181 (Sun, 02 Jul
2006 00:04:51 BST)

I am yet to here from them, if MS come on here I will give them my contact
details.
 
R

RJK

Captivating read, ...now where was I ? ...
oh yeah ...relearning old stuff !!!, (i.e. tweaking up an onld W98se boot up
floppy !)

regards, Richard


cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user) said:
No, it is not. What happens when one is a monopoly, is that one has
to act within certain constraints that would otherwise not apply,
because it is leveraging monopoly status that can be a crime.
<snip>
 
T

Tarquin Mills

In message said:
I am yet to here from them, if MS come on here I will give them my contact
details.

Today I rang Microsoft UK to ask if an advert with a Window XP
Activation code is printed in a newspaper, would it be OK, or whether they
would take legal action? Microsoft said that they would not, and when I
double checked they said they record all calls therefore it is MS view.
 
S

Steve N.

Tarquin said:
In message <[email protected]>



Today I rang Microsoft UK to ask if an advert with a Window XP
Activation code is printed in a newspaper, would it be OK, or whether they
would take legal action? Microsoft said that they would not, and when I
double checked they said they record all calls therefore it is MS view.

They don't have to take any legal action. All they have to do is add the
leaked code to their list of invalid codes on the activation servers.

Steve N.
 
C

Charlie Tame

Steve N. said:
They don't have to take any legal action. All they have to do is add the
leaked code to their list of invalid codes on the activation servers.

Steve N.

Assuming of course he could find an editor stupid enough to publish it :)
 
R

Ronnie Vernon MVP

What do you mean by "activation code"???

The way that product activation works is:

1. You install a version of Windows XP using a unique Product Key.

2. Windows XP generates a unique Product ID and a unique, numeric Hardware Hash that is based on this Product Key and 10 hardware components on the computer where XP was installed.

3. When activation takes place, whether automated or by telephone, the unique Product ID and Hardware Hash are sent to the product activation center at Microsoft.

4. The product activation center responds by generating a unique Certificate ID that is created from the Product ID and Hardware Hash. This number is entered in the activation Window and the activation is complete.

Since these numbers are all unique to the system where the installation is being performed, the only number in this process that would be of any use to anyone is the Product Key and even this number would be of no use to anyone if it has already been used to activate an installation.

Microsoft UK probably had a good laugh after your phone call.
 
C

Charlie Tame

What do you mean by "activation code"???

The way that product activation works is:

1. You install a version of Windows XP using a unique Product Key.

2. Windows XP generates a unique Product ID and a unique, numeric Hardware
Hash that is based on this Product Key and 10 hardware components on the
computer where XP was installed.

3. When activation takes place, whether automated or by telephone, the
unique Product ID and Hardware Hash are sent to the product activation
center at Microsoft.

4. The product activation center responds by generating a unique Certificate
ID that is created from the Product ID and Hardware Hash. This number is
entered in the activation Window and the activation is complete.

Since these numbers are all unique to the system where the installation is
being performed, the only number in this process that would be of any use to
anyone is the Product Key and even this number would be of no use to anyone
if it has already been used to activate an installation.

Microsoft UK probably had a good laugh after your phone call.
 
C

Charlie Tame

Hence my reference to Monty Python's "Upper Class Twit" sketch.

On the other hand "Nobody Expects the Spanish Inquisition" because their
chief weapon is "Surprise" and if you already don't trust Microsoft then how
sensible is it to trust them when they say they are not going to come after
you.

Actually, upon reflection, perhaps Tarquin is more like the black knight
defending his bridge...

Charlie


What do you mean by "activation code"???

The way that product activation works is:

1. You install a version of Windows XP using a unique Product Key.

2. Windows XP generates a unique Product ID and a unique, numeric Hardware
Hash that is based on this Product Key and 10 hardware components on the
computer where XP was installed.

3. When activation takes place, whether automated or by telephone, the
unique Product ID and Hardware Hash are sent to the product activation
center at Microsoft.

4. The product activation center responds by generating a unique Certificate
ID that is created from the Product ID and Hardware Hash. This number is
entered in the activation Window and the activation is complete.

Since these numbers are all unique to the system where the installation is
being performed, the only number in this process that would be of any use to
anyone is the Product Key and even this number would be of no use to anyone
if it has already been used to activate an installation.

Microsoft UK probably had a good laugh after your phone call.
 
D

Donald L McDaniel

What a ****tard. Maybe in the USA they condone anti-competitive monopolies
but in many countires it is a crime.

Well, where Microsoft has its headquarters (the USA), having a
"monopoly" is not a crime, otherwise many state monopolies on public
utilities would be in violation of such laws, if they existed. By the
way, how can European nations have laws against "monopolies", as you
claim, yet have monopolies on public utilities themselves? Isn't that
kind of hypocritical (and unlawful?) Maybe Europeans need to take a
closer look at their laws against monopolies (and their own
hypocrisy).

But Microsoft certainly has no such "monopoly", in the strictest sense
of the word. While certain jurisdictions have held that they do, it
has not yet gone to the Supreme Court of the US, which has final
jurisdiction.

==

===========================================================
Donald L McDaniel
Please reply to the original thread
===========================================================
 
D

Donald L McDaniel

3. Yes, Microsoft is a monopoly, but being a monopoly is not a crime.

Yes it is dumbass, and Microsoft have already been fined for monopolistic
practices.

Sorry, EuroTrash, but Microsoft has NOT been "fined for monopolistic
practices". They HAVE been fined for "unlawful" (actually,
"mercenary") monopolistic practices.

By the way, EuroTrash, why don't you learn to use a SINGULAR verb with
a CORPORATE noun, rather than an idiotic PLURAL verb with a CORPORATE
noun?

==

===========================================================
Donald L McDaniel
Please reply to the original thread
===========================================================
 

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