Oh, ah, sorry, I misunderstoof! -- Got it now: it's not OEM; it's 640. So
he's not selling OEM licenses, right? So he's not obligated to give me media?
Poprivet said:Agreed. On the other hand, if he sold a computer with XP on it, and
did not give the buyer the required seller's information, he has
intentionally and fraudulently pirated software to the buyer. That
makes the seller a pirate and the buyer an unwitting party to the
piracy.
[email protected] said:PID of 640 indicates a Volume License Key. He can't legally give you a
copy of the media to go with the key. He doesn't own it, and neither
do you.
It looks to me like you have been given a compromised VLK.
BillW50 said:Does that mean Gateway is a prirate because Gateway and other big OEM
sell you computers with MS applications without keys or licenses?
does that make Microsoft a pirate because they know all about this
practice and just winks?
Actually, it's simple. The "seller" is required to provide a means of
returning the system to its shipped status, regardless of who the seller
is. That includes you if you should sell the machine.
Also part of that requirement is the necessity to provide a readable
form of instructions detialing how to do the "reset" or whatever one
wishes to all it.
Agreed. On the other hand, if he sold a computer with XP on it, and did
not give the buyer the required seller's information, he has intentionally
and fraudulently pirated software to the buyer. That makes the seller a
pirate and the buyer an unwitting party to the piracy.
Mostly good advice from BBB on, but the preceding suggestions can place
one in a liabilty situation that could be hard (and expensive) to handle.
If he wins, the OP could end up responsible for the loss of sales created,
plus punitive damages for impuning a reputation. Be very careful of
liability.
BBB, Chambers of Commerce, Newspaper letter to the editor with clear
OPINIONS, etc.
I see NO reason for you to be telling this person that a newsgroup "won't
do it". He didn't ASK the ng to do it. He asked for assistance, which
up to that point, you were providing. It's silly to admonish people for
things they haven't done and worse yet to drift off topic like t hat
without any indication of doing so.
Rock, I'm not meaning to attack you personally though I'm sure you see it
that way. I AM however knee-jerking to the several posts that do this
sort of thing continuously. A good post consists of nothing but facts and
resource references and little else. Being condescending is not one of
the "else" things.
Rock said:Thanks for the follow up, so how are you going to handle it?
Well, I'm still debating with myself. In order to get the facts clear in
my
head, I talked both to the volume licensing people and the inti-piracy
people, and did give them the name and address of the shop. Although I
know
they won't tell the guy who ratted on him, I doubt he'll have much trouble
figuring it out, so if I'm going to deal directly with him I'd best do it
soon.
It was only my writing about this experience on my blog that ever got him
to
respond to me (to say "no", but still...) at all, and now *he's* emailed
*me*
today to ask if I still mean to soften what I had posted there, as I had I
said I would do last week -- back when he had me convinced that selling a
refurb without any reinstallation files for the OS was standard practice.
In my reply today, I explained about the "640" pid, and told him that in
light of that, I'd only soften the bottom line of the blog post if he were
to
give me a shrink-wrapped retail disk of the OS. He countered that the pid
came from his own installation disk, but that the COA/license was legit,
and
said that if I'd bring the laptop back in, he'd reinstall windows on it
(but
didn't specify from what source). I asked if he was proposing to
reinstall
such that 1) the new installation disk would enter the same product key
into
the registry as is printed on the COA sticker, and 2) I'd get that disk,
and
his last email came back in all caps: he's told me over and over that he
can't give me a disk he doesn't have, so if I'll just bring the laptop
back,
he'll refund my money.
I said that there are only a few legal ways for him to buy, install and
sell
this software, and as far as I can determine all of them require him to
provide me with the files that will allow me to repair or reinstall my OS.
I
asked him, if I'm wrong, to tell me what version he has that doesn't
require
it -- it must have a name: OEM, Retail, Bulk retail, System-builder's
Package ...? I probably should have skipped that part of my reply, and
limited it to this: I'll consider returning it for a refund.
My dilemmas are two: sunk time and security, I've had the thing for over
a
week and have tweaked it quite a bit. I just hate to lose the work. AND
I'm
concerned about removing all my 'stuff' well enough that he couldn't
recover
any of it, if he should decide to be malicious. *I* won't be malicious
enough to reformat the hard-drive, but I don't know if I can wipe my stuff
off completely without doing that.
I did learn that I can use the Windows Genuine Advantage kit for victims
of
piracy to buy a new retail copy of the OS for under $160. While I hate to
accept the financial burden of keeping the machine and just buying the
software, I also hate to be without a laptop, and to give up the time I've
spent and will have to re-spend when I find another one.
I dunno, but I think if I'm going to return it, it had best be by the end
of
the day tomorrow.
Poprivet said:Yup. And I think you already know that. MS licenses are binding
under Federal Law. Many tinkerers and hackers do so. Gateway does
not. In this story here the onus isn't on Gateway; it's on the
person who sold the machine. Little was said about what Gateway
originally provided; only a few simple unverifiable references.
Nope. The licenses and all documentation all clearly state the MS
has NO responsibility of support for OEM systems and software. That's
all well known and I suspect from past readings that you know
that, too. MS will seldom touch anything with OEM in the codes. I
think that's reasonable, actually, since MS has no control over the
what/how of the installations when it's an OEM version. They only
support retail versions.
Once again, thanks to all for your patience and efforts to help me
understand what he did, what he should have done, and what my rights
are. Sorry to have been so dogged and prolix.
Rock said:Very interesting. You certainly have got his attention, but his vague reply
about reinstalling the OS, who knows what you'd get. Do you want to be in
business with this guy? What happens, for example, if there is a hardware
failure in the near future, will he stonewall you on a fix? You might be
better off returning the system.
There are free wipe utilities you can use to wipe the files you delete, to
make it very difficult for him to recovery any personal data. Wiping the
entire drive is not a big issue, as I see it, since he can simply reinstall
from whatever he used in the first place, however, if you do that it won't
be in the same condition you received it so he could gripe on it, and you
don't want him to have any way to come back at you.
I would wipe the personal files, and return the system. Maybe the MS folks
can take a bite out of him, or maybe they won't, that's not really your
issue. But I would disengage from doing business with him.
If I had decided to keep it, I'd have just written him off, and gone
elsewhere (I wish there were more choices, locally, for personalized sales
&
service -- this is the second family-run shop I've had to give up on) for
any
kind of assistance in the future. BUT yes, I've decided to return it.
That's what I'm thinking. If I wiped the whole thing, he could bitch. So
I'll wipe my files with some kind of utility and take it back.
Absolutely. Unless he somehow screws me with the refund, I don't plan to
ever have anything more to do with him. In his email today, scheduling my
return, he seemed quite a bit calmer. Caps-lock turned off.
Sooooo -- totally offtopic -- now to find me another good deal on a
refurb,
from someplace with a good rep. Eagle-Computer, www.saveateagle.com looks
interesting. CNET's laptop searches bring their deals up with a very high
user-rating for the store. Their best deals appear to be on this Averatec
brand. Anyone know anything about the store or the brand?
Rock said:Sorry I don't. Have you looked at Dell or Gateway? I believe both
sell refurbished computers. Some are returns that are essentially
unused, with good prices.