No one had a gun in their mouth forced to Beta Test.

[Chad Harris]

Richard--

Sounds like play to me. What about all those cry babies on the
Vista/Longhorn Beta group Cafe and General groups posting hundreds of times
a week "Mommy Mommy Wendy pullleasssse gimme a new build. What work ethic
was that?

It looked like Pre-School 101 to me. Think any of them were housebroken?

BTW every one of these people felt like they were part of a chosen tribe and
this psychology was fed by MSFT. I missed the scenario where any of them
had a 12 gauge shotgun stuffed in their mouth and forced to test. Help me
find that one.

CH

 

[Robert Firth]

Well, you have to take the bad with the good. All the 'regulars' in the
newsgroups, the most active participants, seemed to discourage talk about
"will we get rtm", "when will we get rtm". Of course, with the offer of a
free copy of vista, testers have come out to ask for the free copy, even
though they didn't send in any feedback. Those who have worked hard and have
participated in the newsgroups and feature foci find this 'cry baby' mess
annoying. I will admit that some errors could have been made, but I'd guess
the majority of those asking didn't participate.

Try not to 'discrimitate' against a whole group of 30,000 people based on
the postings of a few hundred. I'd argue that a significant number of people
in the group has helped in their own way.

Although I can't truely speak for the rest, I can say that I have submitted
a good number of bugs, mostly though the CPP but also several through the
tech beta. I really wasn't expecting a free copy of vista because from my
point of view that would be asking way to much for volunteer work. However,
I most certainly didn't turn the offer down when it was made available.

I will admit that what many people have done is childish. In fact, some of
it was plain stupid. It is impossible to go through life without coming
across a few selfish people.

Robert Firth
http://www.winvistainfo.org

 

[Chad Harris]

This makes plenty of sense. The people who were enjoying themselves and
spending a good deal of testing who I read were deeply into the Windows OS.
So you're absolutely right--it is way off the mark to characterize most Beta
testers who are very enthusiastic about the OS and what they will find new
and pulling together to get it to as good as they can get along with a
couple thousand people at Redmond or so.

The least thing on their mind was coping a free copy of Vista or anything
else actually I agree. But since there seemed to be a bit of elitist
attack on the people who didn't get the chance to Beta test intermittently,
sporadically and chronically on this group and often by MVPs or advanced
users which surprises me a bit as to their motive for even flexing their
fingers to type that kind of thing, I felt a little obliged to defend the
many people who could have been high quality TBTs but simply didn't get the
chance.

I do believe that what Brannigan doesn't come out and say here but has said
before on groups is that people who have tested previously have a better
chance for the two plum assignments out of the 200 plus Betas MSFT
offers--and for those who haven't, it's an uphill climb Robert as to how
they "break in" or demonstrate they can file quality bugs when they have no
opportunity to do so, since the OS only comes along every few years.

I also know that many of the apps Connect offers people to test have nothing
whatsoever to do with their daily routine. I've gotten offers for all kinds
of enterprise servers that I don't use, and have no way to ever use, and
I'm sure many others have as well.

CH




The vast majority of those people would get more enjoyment from solving a
setup problem or learning a trick or two on using BCDETIT, or or any of
dozens of problems in Vista or any other OS than they would from the gift of
Vista and your points are well taken.

 

[Lang Murphy]

CH,

And... might one not consider that the MSDN and Tech guys paid pretty
serious money to be in those programs? CPP was totally free. I sure didn't
stick a 12 gauge, or any other gauge gun, in anyone's cakehole to get them
to try Vista for free. So now all the malcontents that've been bitching
about Vista want a free copy. Hahahaha.

I mean... I'm sure there are CPP guys and gals who deserve a free copy.
Maybe MS should create a different set of requirements for those folks to
get a free copy. And not publish it to the world. Although I'm sure if they
did that, change the requirements, the requirements would get out and those
that just missed them would be most put out. I don't know... just rambling
at this point.... but I am sure there are CPP folks who probably deserve a
free copy. Doubt that Ballmer would agree with that, though...

I got the RTM code and installed it on 3 work PC's. I'd love to get a free
copy, as a TBT, to upgrade my personal PC. Time'll tell...

Lang

 

[Chad Harris]

I agree--

My comments on this thread had little if anything to do with "getting free
software from MSFT--that's not even in the equation when a lot of us Beta
test. It's so not a factor.

Most of us who were avid to get hold of the Beta back in July '05 wanted to
see what was there, how we could fix it, hopefully how we could improve
it--along the lines that Robert Firth and you wrote about, and have written
about well. I have few items I know I got them to fix/change because I have
the direct feedback from the particular teams and was able to see change
from build to build I feel very good about in that one of them is going to
make some hardware and printers usuable with drivers that would have vexed
and made a number of people buy new peripherals that they won't need to buy
at all during the reign of Vista.


You and xfile made comments about testing the Beta whether you're a TBT or
not to see how the next OS will work for your needs and I'm in agreement.
Sure a lot of us made great bug reports with every criteria they asked for
in those videos and beyond, well screenshooted and communicated with them
even outside the context of the bug reports, and they just didn't get around
to executing what would have been objectively necessary fixes at times.
That they could have and didn't does bother me a great deal.

I don't know how you perceive this Lang but if you take every version of
Windows since the start, when there have been major functionality problems,
it has been rare for an MSKB or an SP rollup to fix them. They are for the
most part security vulnerability fixes and you and I both looked closely at
what happened as XP SP2 rolled out. A lof of us who are interested
participate in Betas for the SPs as well when they happen.

I remember the one for XP SP2.

In addition to making the OS better, and trying it to see how it evolved, I
didn't want to have to address so many damn issues for the next five years
until Blackcomb/Vienna/Figi whatevah starts its Alpha and Beta. And now
sadly I am.

Maybe since Jim Allchin has picked up the blogging bug, Jim will push some
fixes even away from MSFT since he's still going to be immersed in watching
and hacking his own Windows.

This is the first OS I notice that RTMs in the midst of an active, vibrant
MSDN and Technet "blogosphere" to use a Redmonesque word, so that I see as a
real plus. That offers an additional parallel strong ancillary line of
communication and support on in depth Vista and LH server issues

CH

 

[Guest]

I am a CPP and that freaks me out, I have been sobmitted bugs in here
instead the feedback button, I think RTM should be also for CPP cause
everyone in the world should know if their PCs are going to be compatible
with Vista just before buying the new OS or a brand new PC

 

[Lang Murphy]

Chad,

As always, you take the time to make your points and they stick to the wall,
imho. I think it's so unfortunate that some folks in here misconstrue your
intent. Unfortunate for them, that is. I think that your intent is to do the
best job you can beta testing... and I, for one, find no fault with that,
period.

I came into the beta late... I did what I could to report the bugs I found.
Six is not an awful lot, I'll admit, but what I found I reported. Using the
tools I was asked to use. And, like yourself, I had no expectation of
getting anything free out of it.

I understand your frustration at having worked so hard at getting it, Vista,
right, and feeling that it's not. You did your job... stand tall.

I have not participated in any SP betas yet. I know our group didn't do any
beta testing for XP SP2. Should have, no doubt, but it didn't happen, for
whatever reason.

I haven't checked the MSDN and TechNet blogs... one thing I found odd was
that I just signed up for the Connect NG's and there's like absolutely no
traffic in there... most NG's have a single msg welcoming folks to that NG
and many have like 3 msg since 05. Weird.

But you know... I don't think the job of testing Vista is done just because
they've declared RTM regardless of what anyone says about it being ready or
not. I think, maybe, now is the time to pound on it harder than ever and
scream bloody murder for fixes. That's my plan. For good or ill. Free or no
free.

Lang

 

[Chad Harris]

The MFST newsgroups for Betas usually have the most traffic at the beginning
and until near the end of the Beta and the most traffic are always the ones
connected with the OS but I'm sure the all have significant importantce as
learning mechanisms and to drive the Beta testing.

I have thought all your posts very sincere and very thoughtful and pretty
detailed.

You also seem to have a good perspective on what the software should do from
work as well as your time at home.

Keep up the very good work--I always look forward to your posts.

My recovery jag and pushing for an OS CD/DVD from OEMs lately has been
simplyin the vein that I think that for their hard earned money for hdw
people should have the expectation that MSFT and the companies who benefit
from a huge surge in sales at the time when the OS, Office, and it's pretty
powerful 26 associated apps and servers for "Office Systems 2007" and
Longhorn server owe it to this big population of public users in the
millions to provide a recovery system with extremely high efficacy. It's
just in anyone's dreams that what OEMs are shipping that is non-OS works at
all.

I'm shocked that someone with as much experience and sophistication as Mike
Brannigan believes they do.

CH

 

[Lang Murphy]

Couldn't agree more on the media issue. When I bought my last PC from Dell,
one week it was X99.00 WITH the XP CD. The next week it was X89.00 WITHOUT
the XP CD but I could buy one for $10. Heh, heh, heh... needless to say, I
laid out the cash for the CD.

Good lord, who in their right mind would want to use the OEM's restore
partition? Not I. Hmm... I guess I'm not trying to say I'M in my right mind,
but I spend enough time clearing off the crap added on by the OEM that if I
have to go back to bare metal, I'd choose the clean OS install over the
OEM's restore partition any day.

That's why I'm psyched about Complete PC Backup Restore... do a clean OS
install, install my apps, copy over my data, snap a Complete PC Backup to an
external USB drive and I'm ready to go. Except... what? I don't have the
Vista DVD to boot from so... I can't restore my image? To quote Bill the
Cat; Phhllbbbttttttttt!

If they're not going to include a DVD, they, at the very least, need to
include an iso of the Vista DVD so one can burn one's own DVD.

I mean... does it come down to the OEM wanting to force one to use their
restore partition so one is forced to install all of the crap they drop on
one's box, not all MS stuff either, so the OEM is meeting some agreement
with those companies whose crap is part of the OEM image? I mean...
really... WordPerfect? Haw, haw, haw. (Sorry if you use it... I don't...)
Corel Photo Gallery "2 minute" trial software? Puleeeease... some crappy
burning software, AV trial software, gawd... I hate that stuff.

My problem is... when I get a new PC, I don't want to take the time to
configure it right, i.e., clean OS install, install apps, etc... I have to
drool all over it for a couple of days and by then I've invested too much
time to go bare metal. I swear, the next PC I buy will go bare metal first
thing. And Complete PC Backup will make that job easier, methinks. But,
dang... I need that effin' Vista DVD dude!

Lang