Nikon LED questions

G

geletine

I am thinking of getting a nikon coolscan IV ED second hand, obviously
I won't know how much it has been used, can the led be replaced,or does
it last forever.
Or is it better me getting a new Coolscan V ED?
I have read alot about other scanners having florescent difffuse lamp
which lasts according to minolta website 8,000 hrs, so I stay clear of
2nd hand minolta or other brands that use the florescent deffuse lamp.

regardless of dust, which i know is a sighn of retirement, what else
should I beware of nikon LED scanners?
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

I am thinking of getting a nikon coolscan IV ED second hand, obviously
I won't know how much it has been used, can the led be replaced,or does
it last forever.

The LED in the Nikon scanners don't require regular replacement and
should last as long as any other part of the scanner, so you should not
need to worry about this.
Or is it better me getting a new Coolscan V ED?

The Coolscan IV is 2900ppi, but the Coolscan V has a higher resolution
at 4000ppi. Whether that is important to you depends on your
requirements - and how much the owner of the original CS-IV is asking
for it. ;-)
I have read alot about other scanners having florescent difffuse lamp
which lasts according to minolta website 8,000 hrs, so I stay clear of
2nd hand minolta or other brands that use the florescent deffuse lamp.
Possibly a little harsh, 8000hrs is about a year of 24/7 use. Unless
the original owner was an industrial facility that used the scanner
continuously on a shift basis, I doubt it would be much into its rated
life. The lamps are fragile too - but so are many other parts of a
scanner, you are always taking a risk buying used, but I don't think the
risk on the lamp is significantly greater than on any other part of
these precision optical instruments.
regardless of dust, which i know is a sighn of retirement, what else
should I beware of nikon LED scanners?
Well dust isn't actually a retirement issue - the scanners can generally
be cleaned. However you should be aware that dust doesn't show up as
defects on the image, but as a halo around bright areas in slides. A
good test for it is to take some unexposed developed slide film (ie.
deep black film) and mount it in the FH-3 film holder so that the
perforations are in the frame. Scan that and look at the scanned image
of the perforations, which should be bright white. If any of the white
smears into the black, just like a soft focus effect, then you probably
have some dust or fog on the optics - most likely the mirrors.

You can either have the unit serviced by Nikon, and pay them a small
fortune to do so, or have a go yourself if you feel confident
dismantling the unit and cleaning optics. There are a couple of web
sites that show how to do this - but be prepared to strip the scanner
right down to get access to the optics.

To prevent this becoming an annual activity spend a small amount of the
change from your purchase on a close fitting dust cover and fit it
religiously when the scanner is not in use.

Another thing you should be aware of are the limitations of ICE: the
feature of the Nikon (and some other) film scanners to automatically
detect and conceal dirt and scratches on film. The Nikons tend to
exaggerate defects like this more than some other scanners, because they
use a semi-collimated light source, so ICE is a big help. ICE works
best on films which used the C-41 and E-6 processes. It can work on
Kodachrome depending on the film and process batch and the density of
the image, but it often has problems. It never works on conventional
black and white film.

All of this is because the process uses a fourth LED emitting infrared
light, around 850nm wavelength. The dyes used on colour film are
transparent to this wavelength, so the image produced in the infrared is
mainly just the dirt and surface defects on the film. However, silver
oxide, the black material in normal black and white film, is not
transparent in the infrared, so the ICE process cannot tell the
difference between real image information and defects. Consequently the
ICE algorithm goes wrong in some strange ways.

The silver content of the original emulsion is bleached out of most
colour film, hence it is not a problem. Kodachrome is different in that
the process can leave a considerable amount of silver oxide in the
developed emulsion, particularly in the dense image areas, so it is a
bit of a hit and miss. If you get problems with Kodachrome turn ICE off
completely - and always do that when scanning conventional black and
white film. (Chromogenic black and white film, which is C-41
compatible, is OK.)

Finally, always use the Kodachrome setting in the software when scanning
Kodachrome film. This can help with the ICE problem, but the main
reason is that the spectral characteristics of the Kodachrome emulsions
are different to those of E-6 process films. Since the LEDs in the
scanner are very narrow wavelengths, the scanner only samples the dye
density at these wavelengths - so different spectral characteristics of
the film dye will produce a different colour balance to what you see
visually by eye (or what other scanners using broad band filters on a
white light will see). This is a type of metamerism, the same effect
that causes certain colours to appear different under different lights.
For example, a repaired car panel can appear to be a perfect colour
match to the original panels under daylight, but be completely different
from them under streetlamps at night. Useful advice for buying used
cars too! ;-)
 
D

Don

I am thinking of getting a nikon coolscan IV ED second hand, obviously
I won't know how much it has been used, can the led be replaced,or does
it last forever.

It lasts forever. Better still, it does *not* steadily deteriorate
with time as conventional light sources do, so the response will
remain constant!
Or is it better me getting a new Coolscan V ED?

I don't remember if IV ED has single-pass multiscanning or not
(someone is bound to jump in momentarily to clear this up).

If it does, it's a very important feature to have especially for
negatives and (dark) Kodachromes.

On the other hand, newer versions of NikonScan have some features
which don't work with all older scanners (SIE, for example). So it all
depends how important these software tools are to you.
I have read alot about other scanners having florescent difffuse lamp
which lasts according to minolta website 8,000 hrs, so I stay clear of
2nd hand minolta or other brands that use the florescent deffuse lamp.
!

regardless of dust, which i know is a sign of retirement, what else
should I beware of nikon LED scanners?

That's about it. You can have the scanner professionally cleaned and
that should take care of the dust. I would be very concerned about
this! For example if the previous owner was a smoker (spit! ;o))
cleaning would be a must!!

The only other thing is that LEDs produce a relatively narrow depth of
field so if your film is curved (like my cardboard mounted 1970s
Kodachromes) there will be "focus issues". This can, however, be
"fixed" in a number of ways including re-mounting, if you're up to it.

But LEDs have so many other advantages so that, on balance, it's
definitely the way to go!

Don.
 
R

rafeb

Kennedy McEwen wrote:

You can either have the unit serviced by Nikon, and pay them a small
fortune to do so, or have a go yourself if you feel confident
dismantling the unit and cleaning optics. There are a couple of web
sites that show how to do this - but be prepared to strip the scanner
right down to get access to the optics.


I just went through this exercise with my LS-8000
and it was a tense experience. I wouldn't
recommend it for the timid.

Much of the difficulty was simply gaining access
to a set of connectors to a single circuit board.
Much disassembly was required to do this.

Fortunately I didn't have to touch the optical
assembly with anything other than a Q-tip and
a few blasts of canned air.

I wouldn't have even attempted this without the
great photos and instructions on Dane Kosaka's
web site.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
R

rafeb

Don wrote:

But LEDs have so many other advantages so that, on balance, it's
definitely the way to go!


I agree. Every film scanner I've ever owned
with a cold-cathode light source has had issues
with banding and streaking on dense transparencies.

I chalk this up to poor calibration, or maybe
poor control of the white-strip used for
calibration. All of these scanners were
Microtek designs.

Just curious... is the calibration part of the
firmware, or is it by any chance in the driver?

(In designs that I've worked on, it's in the
firmware.)


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
R

rgbcmyk

Don wrote:

[snip]
The only other thing is that LEDs produce a relatively narrow depth of
field so if your film is curved (like my cardboard mounted 1970s
Kodachromes) there will be "focus issues". This can, however, be
"fixed" in a number of ways including re-mounting, if you're up to it.

My Minolta 5400 does not have a LED light source, but its shallow dof is
very obvious in the uneven sharpness across the scans. Are there any
objective or scientific reasons that makes a LED light source's dof
worse?
But LEDs have so many other advantages so that, on balance, it's
definitely the way to go!

Aside from their longevity, what are the other reasons?
 
R

rgbcmyk

rafeb said:
I agree. Every film scanner I've ever owned
with a cold-cathode light source has had issues
with banding and streaking on dense transparencies.

I chalk this up to poor calibration, or maybe
poor control of the white-strip used for
calibration. All of these scanners were
Microtek designs.

Just because your Microtek scanners "had issues with banding and
streaking on dense transparencies" is insufficient to conclude that all
film scanners with a cold-cathode light source would have such a
problem.
 
N

Neil Gould

Recently said:
Don wrote:

[snip]
The only other thing is that LEDs produce a relatively narrow depth
of field so if your film is curved (like my cardboard mounted 1970s
Kodachromes) there will be "focus issues". This can, however, be
"fixed" in a number of ways including re-mounting, if you're up to
it.

My Minolta 5400 does not have a LED light source, but its shallow dof
is very obvious in the uneven sharpness across the scans. Are there
any objective or scientific reasons that makes a LED light source's
dof worse?
I suspect that the issue is the LED's lower light output, requiring a
wider aperture (or longer exposure, or both) than other light sources. So,
I'd have worded the above as "...scanners with LEDs have a relatively..."
etc.
Aside from their longevity, what are the other reasons?
As has been mentioned, the output from LEDs doesn't change color over the
working life of the LED. And, they are cooler than lamps, so operating
temperatures are more controllable.

Regards,

Neil
 
R

rafe bustin

Just because your Microtek scanners "had issues with banding and
streaking on dense transparencies" is insufficient to conclude that all
film scanners with a cold-cathode light source would have such a
problem.


Three for three? And no equivalent banding
on the Nikon?

What are the odds of there *not* being a causal
relationship here?


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
W

Wilfred

Three for three? And no equivalent banding
on the Nikon?
What are the odds of there *not* being a causal
relationship here?

The causal relationship can also apply to Microtek scanners in general,
to Microtek scanners with CC light sources or to flatbed scanners with
such lamps.

Since you did not 'test' any Minolta, Canon, Epson, etc. scanner with
such a light source, it doesn't make sense to include these brands in
your conclusions.
 
B

Bart van der Wolf

rafe bustin said:
Three for three? And no equivalent banding
on the Nikon?

I also had a Microtek scanner, it had massive banding and uneven
illumination. I dumped it in exchange for an Epson. Never had the
banding problems since.

My conclusion; The Microteks may not be representative for all
cold-cathode scanners...

Bart
 
R

rafe bustin

The causal relationship can also apply to Microtek scanners in general,
to Microtek scanners with CC light sources or to flatbed scanners with
such lamps.

Since you did not 'test' any Minolta, Canon, Epson, etc. scanner with
such a light source, it doesn't make sense to include these brands in
your conclusions.


No such "conclusions" were stated, Wilfred.
I specifically mentioned that the three that
I owned and had used were Microtek designs.

But I gather from recent threads on this list that
the Minolta 5400 (the "old" one) has similar issues,
and has been updated with a new model that has LED
illumination. Doesn't that support my theory?

Do you have an alternative explanation?


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
W

Wilfred

rafe said:
No such "conclusions" were stated, Wilfred.
I specifically mentioned that the three that
I owned and had used were Microtek designs.

But I gather from recent threads on this list that
the Minolta 5400 (the "old" one) has similar issues,
and has been updated with a new model that has LED
illumination. Doesn't that support my theory?

Do you have an alternative explanation?

My Minolta 5400 does not show any banding but my old Minolta Scan Speed
did. The issue of banding in the 5400 was strictly a VueScan issue that
turned up in some units (not including mine). Even the VueScan ssue has
now been resolved - check out the thread "Vuescan: no more streaks on my
SE5400!!"
My alternative explanation is that IF banding is an issue with CC light
sources, then it can be compensated with good software (or perhaps I
should say good calibration).
 
R

rafeb

Wilfred said:
My Minolta 5400 does not show any banding but my old Minolta Scan Speed
did. The issue of banding in the 5400 was strictly a VueScan issue that
turned up in some units (not including mine). Even the VueScan ssue has
now been resolved - check out the thread "Vuescan: no more streaks on my
SE5400!!"
My alternative explanation is that IF banding is an issue with CC light
sources, then it can be compensated with good software (or perhaps I
should say good calibration).


Oh, definitely, I agree it's a calibration issue.
It may also have to do with the quality of the lamp,
the degree of diffusion applied to the lamp, and
the stability of the lamp's power supply.

The question is, is that "fixable" in the driver or
embedded in the scanner's firmware?

And the answer to that question may vary with
each individual scanner or scanner brand.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
R

rafeb

Neil Gould wrote:

I suspect that the issue is the LED's lower light output, requiring a
wider aperture (or longer exposure, or both) than other light sources. So,
I'd have worded the above as "...scanners with LEDs have a relatively..."
etc.


This has been the conventional wisdom for some time.

Having recently disassembled my LS-8000 for cleaning,
I can tell you that it has a surprisingly large lens.

I'm guessing 75 to 85 mm focal length and an aperture
of around f2.8 to f3.5 or so.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

rafe bustin said:
No such "conclusions" were stated, Wilfred.
I specifically mentioned that the three that
I owned and had used were Microtek designs.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here, partly because of some
ambiguity in your original statement, and partly because that
interpretation was reinforced by subsequent responses.

There is certainly a causal link between Microtek designed equipment and
banding - your experience and others have indicated this to be so.

There is not a causal link between cold cathode illumination in general
and banding - at least your reported experience has not demonstrated
one. Then again, that isn't what you specifically said, indeed you
offered other alternative possibilities.

However it is relatively easy to read an implied claimed link into
"Every film scanner I've ever owned with a cold-cathode light source has
had issues with banding and streaking on dense transparencies.", which I
think rgbcmyk did. Since you didn't exactly go out of your way to
correct that misunderstanding in your subsequent response, Rafe, the
implication has been reinforced.
But I gather from recent threads on this list that
the Minolta 5400 (the "old" one) has similar issues,
and has been updated with a new model that has LED
illumination. Doesn't that support my theory?
No, in fact it contradicts it because the Mk1 only has similar issues
when used with faulty software. When used with the correct software
(and firmware) there is no banding problem to speak of. Since it only
needs one example to disprove a theory, the original Minolta adequately
dispels the theory that there is any causal link between banding and CC
illumination.

The change to LED illumination in the Mk.II only demonstrates that the
LED offers some overall advantages - probably just cost. Remember that
the LED in the Mk.II is just another white light source, not separate
RGBI LEDs as in the Nikon. The Mk.II Minolta still uses a colour
filtered trilinear CCD.
Do you have an alternative explanation?
Yes - some of those you already suggested! ;-)
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

rafeb said:
Fortunately I didn't have to touch the optical
assembly with anything other than a Q-tip and
a few blasts of canned air.
Certainly a valuable point for anyone trying to clean their own scanner:
* NEVER DISASSEMBLE THE OPTICAL COMPONENTS!!

That includes the mirrors, but certainly the lenses. Once moved they
can be almost impossible to put back in the same position - and the
scanner will never focus properly until they are.

So, only clean as much as possible IN SITU.
 
R

rafeb

Kennedy McEwen wrote:

No, in fact it contradicts it because the Mk1 only has similar issues
when used with faulty software. When used with the correct software
(and firmware) there is no banding problem to speak of. Since it only
needs one example to disprove a theory, the original Minolta adequately
dispels the theory that there is any causal link between banding and CC
illumination.

The change to LED illumination in the Mk.II only demonstrates that the
LED offers some overall advantages - probably just cost. Remember that
the LED in the Mk.II is just another white light source, not separate
RGBI LEDs as in the Nikon. The Mk.II Minolta still uses a colour
filtered trilinear CCD.


Of course the retort to this is that CCFL
illumination requires more sophisticated
calibration than LED, and most scanner
drivers/firmware simply aren't up to the job.

I'm less interested in the theory than the cure.

I rely on a Microtek 2500 to scan 4x5. I have
no real gripes with the resolution of this
beast, but the banding renders the scans useless
in many cases. I'm half tempted to chuck it and
get an Epson 4870 instead. Waddya think?

I briefly toyed with VueScan as a "fix" for this
problem, without much success. maybe I need to
give that another try.

Are there known instances of VueScan fixing
banding problems with Microtek film scanners?

That would be good news.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
D

Don

Just curious... is the calibration part of the
firmware, or is it by any chance in the driver?

In case of Nikon I don't see any low level commands to explicitly do
the calibration, but I know for a fact there is definitely a (TWAIN)
driver call to perform the calibration explicitly.

So, I would say (pending closer review of low level commands) that
there must be a built-in (internal) firmware calibration routine
simply due to the nature of things.

On top of that there is additional calibration (presumably to handle
the residual problems due to temperature changes and the like)
performed by the (TWAIN) driver.

This is done automatically after a certain period of time by the
driver. You would notice this when you remove the media. Normally, the
scanner does nothing. But when the "calibration timer" has counted
down, immediately after the media is removed the scanner starts to
whirl and buzz and generally make a fuss, with the light flashing.

This calibration can also be invoked explicitly by clicking the
Calibrate button but the media should be removed before doing that.

Don.
 
D

Don

My Minolta 5400 does not have a LED light source, but its shallow dof is
very obvious in the uneven sharpness across the scans. Are there any
objective or scientific reasons that makes a LED light source's dof
worse?

I believe it has to do with the LED wavelength but I don't remember
the exact details.

However, it's definitely based on solid and objective scientific
reasons and after reading the explanation I accepted and mentally
filed it as such. I'm sorry, but I don't have any more details than
that.
Aside from their longevity, what are the other reasons?

No deterioration over time (conventional lights slowly dim with time),
purity of light, no explicit need for filters, perfect registration
due to physical arrangement of LEDs (no leading blue shadows, or
trailing red shadows, for example), color purity and saturation due to
LED wavelength, etc...

I'm sure Kennedy can add a few more. ;o)

Don.
 

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