New Vista Drivers tool (Can it be done?)

[Guest]

Why was it necessary for Microsoft to require new drivers for our hardware
devices? Were older drivers a source for hackers to exploit?

One of the most frustrating problems faced by PC users is not only finding
the correct driver for a hardware device but also finding the latest driver
version.

It would have been slick if Microsoft came up with a feature that could not
only convert an older driver (I.E. Windows 9x, 2000, XP) for use with Windows
Vista but maintained a database of drivers and revisions so we could find the
best drivers for our systems with only a few mouse clicks.

That kind of tool would be an answer to many if not most of our needs and
would be another great reason for upgrading to Windows Vista.

Do you agree?

 

[Richard Urban]

There are 2 way to think of this.

Windows Vista could be designed to use drivers dating back to Windows 95.

Hardware manufacturers write new drivers to take advantage of under laying
changes to the operating system structure to take advantage of new system
capabilities which weren't available in 1995.

I prefer it to be the second way.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Guest]

And the most important new capability of drivers in Vista, if I can believe
what I've read, is that most of them run in user land. Kernel mode drivers
have been the primary source of system crashes in Windows XP and have made
diagnosing some driver / hardware issues very, very difficult. Under Windows
XP one has a really hard time differentiating between a bad driver and bad
hardware. Haven't had any issues in Vista yet to gain experience that would
tell me whether or not the task is easier in Vista. Here's hoping!

 

[Kerry Brown]

Yes, the way drivers worked in previous versions of Windows is a security
problem and it is possible for hackers to exploit this.

 

[Guest]

There are 2 way to think of this.

Windows Vista could be designed to use drivers dating back to Windows 95.

Hardware manufacturers write new drivers to take advantage of under laying
changes to the operating system structure to take advantage of new system
capabilities which weren't available in 1995.

I prefer it to be the second way.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

I agree that having drivers that take advantage of new features is best for
the PC but while we are waiting for that driver to be posted we would benefit
from having at least a basic functional driver as opposed to nothing.

 

[Guest]

So if we had a tool for Vista to convert a previous driver to work with Vista
that would help while the newest driver is being written.

 

[Richard Urban]

Why don't you write said miraculous program? You could be the next Bill
Gates. <grin>

Believe me, if it could be done it would have already been done. You would
need a tool that is familiar with every piece of hardware ever manufacture
red. Not as simple or easy as you would make it out to be.

It is up to the hardware device manufacturer to either recode their original
drivers (NOT) or write new drivers that allow the ancient hardware to
communicate with the operating system (may be impossible to do).

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Richard Urban]

REDO!


Why don't you write said miraculous program? You could be the next Bill
Gates. <grin>

Believe me, if it could be done it would have already been done. You would
need a tool that is familiar with every piece of hardware that every
manufacture
ever produced. Not as simple or easy as you would make it out to be.

It is up to the hardware device manufacturer to either recode their original
drivers (NOT) or write new drivers that allow the ancient hardware to
communicate with the operating system (may be impossible to do).


--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Kerry Brown]

Many properly written XP drivers work fine with Vista x86. Vista x64 needs
signed drivers. There is no way around this. Companies will have to write
new drivers. Whenever a new version of Windows comes out this happens. With
Vista x64 it's twice as hard because most companies don't currently write 64
bit drivers and Vista is a new OS.

 

[Guest]

Why don't you write said miraculous program? You could be the next Bill
Gates. <grin>

If I could I would. I'm just asking the question.

Believe me, if it could be done it would have already been done. You would
need a tool that is familiar with every piece of hardware ever manufacture
red. Not as simple or easy as you would make it out to be.

It is up to the hardware device manufacturer to either recode their original
drivers (NOT) or write new drivers that allow the ancient hardware to
communicate with the operating system (may be impossible to do).

I wasn't talking about a tool that could create drivers from scratch, I was
talking about a tool that could take for example a Windows XP driver and
making modifications for it to be able to work with Windows Vista. You
wouldn't need to have a tool that is familiar with every piece of hardware
ever manufactured because the Windows XP driver already has the info.

Do you believe every software tool that could be written has already been
done?

I'm sure someone hated DOS and wondered why we couldn't have an OS that used
a different way to run programs and manage the PCs resources than using
command line instructions. And one day someone got the idea for "Windows".

That sounds overly simplified as well and was a lot more difficult to do
than the tool I'm talking about. I'm just asking a question, not saying it
should be done.

 

[Guest]

Many properly written XP drivers work fine with Vista x86. Vista x64 needs
signed drivers. There is no way around this. Companies will have to write
new drivers. Whenever a new version of Windows comes out this happens. With
Vista x64 it's twice as hard because most companies don't currently write 64
bit drivers and Vista is a new OS.

So are new Windows Vista drivers made from tweaked XP drivers or are they
completely re-written from scratch?

I never said or insinuated that drivers no longer need to be written because
that wouldn't make sense. I wondered if some drivers could be tweaked to work
with Vista until the updated driver has been completed. (Similar to a beta
driver)

There were numerous sound and video card owners who couldn't use their
hardware due to the lack of a compatible driver. If there was a way to bridge
the gap with a tweaked driver, that could have made life a lot easier.

64 bit drivers would be a much harder task since there aren't enough drivers
available to tweak.

Sure would be great if there was a tool to help us with driver issues.

 

[Owen Smith]

The Vista drivers I wrote/am writing are BASED on the XP drivers source
code, but need to be recompiled with the Vista DDK, so they are subtly
different (but still work on XP)

However, there have been signifcant changes to the Sound Driver model and
Display Driver model, so these may require a lot more work.

64bit drivers SHOULD just be a recompile under the 64bit development
environment, but if the source code isnt well written / designed, then
more work is needed. Of course, the developer needs to sign the driver
package to load on Vista 64bit.

 

[Richard Urban]

And I am saying it can't be done. That "tool" would have to have extensive
knowledge of how every piece of hardware was physically designed, what
electronics and code are supplied with the hardware, the state of firmware
upgrades to the hardware etc.

Hell, there is not even a web site you can go to that lists every single
piece of hardware ever made for computers since Windows 95. Now, maybe if
you were to compile that list someone (a software developer) could run with
it. You seem to think that it is such an easy task. (-:

It just can't be done.

Hope you are satisfied with this answer.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Kerry Brown]

XP drivers could be ported to Vista with a little work. This is not the
optimum method and the developer may have problems as service packs and hot
fixes are released. Vista drivers should be completely rewritten to take
advantage of the security in Vista. In XP most drivers run in kernel mode.
In Vista drivers should run in user mode.

 

[Owen Smith]

XP drivers could be ported to Vista with a little work. This is not the
optimum method and the developer may have problems as service packs and
hot fixes are released. Vista drivers should be completely rewritten to
take advantage of the security in Vista. In XP most drivers run in
kernel mode. In Vista drivers should run in user mode.

Not entirely true. Not all hardware can have user mode drivers (the port
driver still needs to be kernel level, though this is usually supplied
in-box by Microsoft, at least for all common ports like USB, Firewire,...)
User mode drivers using the UMDF still rely on a kernel mode component
(supplied by Microsoft, so it should be "bug free and entirely secure")

It is possible to get the User Mode Driver Framework (UMDF) to run drivers
on XP (but that will still require a rewrite)

User mode drivers still run with full admin priveleges (they are hosted by
a Win32 service), but crashes in a user mode driver don't cause a BSOD,
and can't write over arbitary memory (so are more secure)

It is always a good idea to build your drivers (WDM, KMDF or UMDF) to
target the exact version of windows you are targeting, to pick up any
fixes in the driver development kits.

 

[Kerry Brown]

I realized I was over simplifying things. I was trying to get the point
across that Vista drivers are different. Manufacturers can in many cases
port their XP driver to get the device working but long term they should be
rewriting the driver for Vista.

 

[Guest]

That is good information, Thanks

The Vista drivers I wrote/am writing are BASED on the XP drivers source
code, but need to be recompiled with the Vista DDK, so they are subtly
different (but still work on XP)

However, there have been signifcant changes to the Sound Driver model and
Display Driver model, so these may require a lot more work.

64bit drivers SHOULD just be a recompile under the 64bit development
environment, but if the source code isnt well written / designed, then
more work is needed. Of course, the developer needs to sign the driver
package to load on Vista 64bit.

 

[Guest]

I am.

And I am saying it can't be done. That "tool" would have to have extensive
knowledge of how every piece of hardware was physically designed, what
electronics and code are supplied with the hardware, the state of firmware
upgrades to the hardware etc.

Hell, there is not even a web site you can go to that lists every single
piece of hardware ever made for computers since Windows 95. Now, maybe if
you were to compile that list someone (a software developer) could run with
it. You seem to think that it is such an easy task. (-:

It just can't be done.

Hope you are satisfied with this answer.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Owen Smith]

Agreed

But I think most developers will say "My ported XP driver works, so why
start again from scratch with a framework I don't really know
about/understand?"

 

[Kerry Brown]

Eventually a service pack or security update will break the old driver.