Need help diagnosing problem please :)

[bubba]

Hi all,

I've recently built a PC for my sister which seems to be having problems.

The build is as follows -

MSI K9N Ultra 2-F motherboard
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ (AM2)
1gb Generic RAM (667mhz)
Inno3D Geforce 7300LE 256mb
Hitachi 160gb SATA HD
Onboard sound
Samsung 18x DVD-RW drive
Genius keyboard and mouse (ps2)
Logitech 2.1 speakers
V7 17in TFT monitor
FoxConn case with 350w PSU


When I first put the PC together and loaded windows etc everything went
fine. However a few days later, my sister complained of crashes on king.com
which turned out to be the flash player (prob with flash9b.ocx). I went
back and had a tinker to no avail and so decided to reinstall windows in
case it had somehow installed badly. No luck, a few days later the problem
was back and now accompanied by 'Generic host process' errors, random
restarts and looping between the boot sequence and the windows loading
screen. Things seem to have gotten steadily worse since then. Last night I
tried sorting the crashes and ended up with no internet and blue screens.
About 6 or 8 more attempts to reinstall windows led every time to errors
ranging from random crashes during install making it start over, blue
screens (Page fault, IRQ not less or equal and memory management errors) and
random files failing to copy, then copying after 4 or 5 retrys (can't be a
bad disc, i used 2 seperate copies of windows, both had probs).

The problem can't be with windows as I have the same copy from the same disc
on my PC and it's rock solid. My thoughts are -

Bad RAM module - The random restarts and errors would make this the most
likely culprit IMHO

Bad CPU

Bad motherboard.


I've built several PCs for myself and other people before and took the usual
anti-static precautions etc. Can anyone offer any advice or opinions
please? Personally, I reckon it's the RAM as I've seen similar problems
before. I was going to try running a memory test program, but couldn't get
windows running to download one :S

Many thanks for any advice guys and gals
Bubba

 

[JAD]

what USB devices is she using? and have you loaded the USB2 drivers?

 

[John Doe]

what USB devices is she using? and have you loaded the USB2 drivers?

Probably thinking about Intel systems.
I've never had to load any "USB2 drivers" on my AMD systems.
Maybe the translation is "mainboard/chipset drivers".

But, since he's talking about a problem during Windows installation,
that's not it either.

 

[JAD]

Probably thinking about Intel systems.
I've never had to load any "USB2 drivers" on my AMD systems.
Maybe the translation is "mainboard/chipset drivers".

But, since he's talking about a problem during Windows installation,
that's not it either.

try reading the entire post dipstick

 

[John Doe]

try reading the entire post dipstick

Your mother should have taught you better manners.

Instead of top posting, post in context next time and we'll discuss
it further.

 

[kony]

Hi all,

I've recently built a PC for my sister which seems to be having problems.

The build is as follows -

MSI K9N Ultra 2-F motherboard
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ (AM2)
1gb Generic RAM (667mhz)
Inno3D Geforce 7300LE 256mb
Hitachi 160gb SATA HD
Onboard sound
Samsung 18x DVD-RW drive
Genius keyboard and mouse (ps2)
Logitech 2.1 speakers
V7 17in TFT monitor
FoxConn case with 350w PSU


When I first put the PC together and loaded windows etc everything went
fine. However a few days later, my sister complained of crashes on king.com
which turned out to be the flash player (prob with flash9b.ocx). I went
back and had a tinker to no avail and so decided to reinstall windows in
case it had somehow installed badly.

Don't...reinstall windows that is... if a website crashes
the best advice is to email the webmaster to determine why
their site isn't following stanards and what is required to
get it to work, if other "typical" websites work fine then
there is no expectation a reinstall of windows would be
useful, unless it merely overwrote some newer IE plugin with
an older one, but that should be something you can uninstall
from Add/Remove programs, or in IE - Internet Options -
Settings - View Objects (button) - Remove (offensive item).

No luck, a few days later the problem
was back and now accompanied by 'Generic host process' errors, random
restarts and looping between the boot sequence and the windows loading
screen.

Disable windows reboot-on-error setting.

It is likely you have more than one problem, tackle them one
at a time, ignoring the website crash issue for the time
being... or try loading that 'site with Firefox to see what
happens.

Things seem to have gotten steadily worse since then. Last night I
tried sorting the crashes and ended up with no internet and blue screens.

What did the bluescreens say? They're meant to be an aid,
write down the stop codes displayed. Check Event Viewer.

At this point it would be good to confirm the typical
things, that the fans are all working, heatsink on good, all
temps are low enough, PSU voltages within acceptible range
(use a multimeter to measure that if possible), and that
memtest86+ confirms the memory stability.

About 6 or 8 more attempts to reinstall windows led every time to errors
ranging from random crashes during install making it start over, blue
screens (Page fault, IRQ not less or equal and memory management errors) and
random files failing to copy, then copying after 4 or 5 retrys (can't be a
bad disc, i used 2 seperate copies of windows, both had probs).

Check on a motherboard bios update, but only try to flash it
if the system can sit in the bios menus for a long time
without crashing... you dont' want a lockup while trying to
flash the bios.

The problem can't be with windows as I have the same copy from the same disc
on my PC and it's rock solid.

Well it could be, remember this is different hardware, a
flaw in an OS doesn't necessarily reveal itself on EVERY
system, else Microsoft would've caught the flaw a long time
ago (and then fixed it, if they felt like it).

My thoughts are -

Bad RAM module - The random restarts and errors would make this the most
likely culprit IMHO

Bad CPU

Bad motherboard.

Try underclocking the memory, temporarily, to see if that
helps ( but first, run memtest96+ to see if it indicates any
memory problems as the system is presently configured).

It is not likely the CPU is bad, but if the heatsink wasn't
on good, if it were overheating enough to be instable but
not enough to be dangerous causing an emergency shutdown...

Motherboard could be bad, or buggy bios, but as of yet that
is far too premature a conclusion to make, it could as
easily be the marginal generic Foxconn 350W PSU, it isn't
very good at all, but I would've hoped it could last at
least this long as the system isn't particularly demanding
for power.

Also try clearing CMOS, and see if underclocking the entire
board (CPU bus and memory bus speeds) helps, as it not only
increases stability margin of the parts but also reduces
heat, reduces power consumption. The goal is to try to
isolate variables, and further on this idea you might try
stripping system down to only bare essentials - CPU,
heatsink/fan, 1 memory module, video card.

In that state if it doesn't pass memtest86+ testing for
several hours, there's no point in adding anything back, you
might research potential issues with the motherboard but
otherwise all that's left is to recheck everything and look
at substituting known good parts.

I've built several PCs for myself and other people before and took the usual
anti-static precautions etc. Can anyone offer any advice or opinions
please? Personally, I reckon it's the RAM as I've seen similar problems
before. I was going to try running a memory test program, but couldn't get
windows running to download one :S

You don't need windows loading to download one, get
memtest86+ and put it on a thumbdrive or a floppy, etc,
(whatever the system can boot) and take it to the system to
run it. You don't want to run a windows environment based
memory tester when windows itself doesn't even seem stable
(for whatever reason).

 

[John Doe]

About 6 or 8 more attempts to reinstall windows led every time to
errors

Hopefully you are talking about formatting the drive first.

 

[Paul]

I've built several PCs for myself and other people before and took the usual
anti-static precautions etc. Can anyone offer any advice or opinions
please? Personally, I reckon it's the RAM as I've seen similar problems
before. I was going to try running a memory test program, but couldn't get
windows running to download one :S

Many thanks for any advice guys and gals
Bubba

Try memtest86+ from memtest.org .
It comes in two versions. One version formats a bootable floppy for you.
The second version is an ISO and you burn it to a CD.
Make sure the boot order will pick up the floppy, or the CD,
whichever you choose to use, and then you can test the
memory.

Memtest86+ has the advantage that it tests all of the memory.
The program even "lifts itself out of the way" and tests
underneath. And you can even get source code for the program.
In the past, I managed to modify three lines in the program,
for my own testing purposes, then recompile it and run it.
Good stuff, and all free.

Paul

 

[philo]

I've built several PCs for myself and other people before and took the usual
anti-static precautions etc. Can anyone offer any advice or opinions
please? Personally, I reckon it's the RAM as I've seen similar problems
before. I was going to try running a memory test program, but couldn't get
windows running to download one :S

Many thanks for any advice guys and gals
Bubba

Run a ram test

did ot not occur to you to download the diagnostic utility from *another &*
machine

 

[Chris Hill]

Hi all,

I've recently built a PC for my sister which seems to be having problems.

The build is as follows -

MSI K9N Ultra 2-F motherboard
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ (AM2)
1gb Generic RAM (667mhz)
Inno3D Geforce 7300LE 256mb
Hitachi 160gb SATA HD
Onboard sound
Samsung 18x DVD-RW drive
Genius keyboard and mouse (ps2)
Logitech 2.1 speakers
V7 17in TFT monitor
FoxConn case with 350w PSU

Do you think builders pay big bucks for name-brand power supplies for
the heck of it? I'll bet that if you throw in a decent name-brand psu
of 450w or better, things will work right.

 

[bubba]

Don't...reinstall windows that is... if a website crashes
the best advice is to email the webmaster to determine why
their site isn't following stanards and what is required to
get it to work, if other "typical" websites work fine then
there is no expectation a reinstall of windows would be
useful, unless it merely overwrote some newer IE plugin with
an older one, but that should be something you can uninstall
from Add/Remove programs, or in IE - Internet Options -
Settings - View Objects (button) - Remove (offensive item).

Hi mate, thanks for the speedy and helpful reply (and to everyone). The
website crashes seemed to be down to the flash player. A little research
showed that the problem is apparently quite common with a possible solution
i read being to uninstall flash 9 and install an earlier, more stable
version. Instead of this I decided to play it safe and reinstall windows
and then download the older version on a fresh install as flash player is
apparently a real pain to uninstall. Sadly, the problem version is the one
that comes with windows (ver 9b) :S

Disable windows reboot-on-error setting.

It is likely you have more than one problem, tackle them one
at a time, ignoring the website crash issue for the time
being... or try loading that 'site with Firefox to see what
happens.

Yup, i figured after a while that the flash prob was just a small symptom of
larger troubles. I thought about firefox, but the Adobe help forum says it
happens with that too.

What did the bluescreens say? They're meant to be an aid,
write down the stop codes displayed. Check Event Viewer.

As I said, the error messages on the blue screens mentioned PAGE_FAULT,
IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL and MEMORY_MANAGEMENT. The first two i've seen
before when I had problems with another memory stick. That and the memory
management one would seem to point to the RAM or something on the
motherboard, or could it be something else?

Well it could be, remember this is different hardware, a
flaw in an OS doesn't necessarily reveal itself on EVERY
system, else Microsoft would've caught the flaw a long time
ago (and then fixed it, if they felt like it).

Yup, what I meant to say was that the windows disc couldn't be responsible
for the file copying errors etc as I used 2 different CDs, one of which is
the one I used to install Win on my PC with no probs.

A bit more info if it helps. The CPU temp is a steady 35deg celcius idle
and case temp is 30deg. I had problems running a memory tester before as my
sister lives an hour's bus journey away from me so I couldn't nip home and
grab a copy. I had to get windows running on her PC to download a memtest
prog Luckily, my sister kept trying after I left and got windows
installed. She's grabbed memtest86 and burned it to CD. It's currently
running so I'll post the results ASAP.

I considered the PSU too, but as you said, considering the small load it
'should' be ok. I'll give the other suggestions a try.

Thanks all, please keep the ideas coming

 

[Paul D.Smith]

....snip...

Nobody has mentioned it yet so I will - check the capacitors on the MB next
time you're there. If they're bulging, then they need replacing. With luck
your's will be fine but there is apparently quite an issue on some
motherboards (such as one of mine!).

If the caps. are going, you find that the voltages on the MB can flap all
over the place causing all manner of weird and wonderful symptoms.

Paul DS

 

[kony]

As I said, the error messages on the blue screens mentioned PAGE_FAULT,
IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL and MEMORY_MANAGEMENT. The first two i've seen
before when I had problems with another memory stick. That and the memory
management one would seem to point to the RAM or something on the
motherboard, or could it be something else?

I meant a stop code like 0x0(n)

We can't necessarily assume windows errors are from
hardware, though they might be... if doing a clean windows
installation, don't install the drivers or software yet, and
see if there is same problem, and add back drivers one at a
time, trying different versions. I mean install a driver
like video and nothing else yet, trying to reproduce the
symptoms inbetween each change to the OS environment.

A bit more info if it helps. The CPU temp is a steady 35deg celcius idle
and case temp is 30deg. I had problems running a memory tester before as my
sister lives an hour's bus journey away from me so I couldn't nip home and
grab a copy. I had to get windows running on her PC to download a memtest
prog Luckily, my sister kept trying after I left and got windows
installed. She's grabbed memtest86 and burned it to CD. It's currently
running so I'll post the results ASAP.

Remember that if there are memory errors the OS should be
reinstalled, having an OS with potentially corrupt files can
make pinpointing problems an arduous process.

I considered the PSU too, but as you said, considering the small load it
'should' be ok. I'll give the other suggestions a try.

If it becomes a problem going back and forth to service this
system you might see if you can take it with you next time,
if that's feasible/reasonable.

 

[Bob M]

Hi all,

I've recently built a PC for my sister which seems to be having problems.

The build is as follows -

MSI K9N Ultra 2-F motherboard
AMD Sempron 64 3200+ (AM2)
1gb Generic RAM (667mhz)
Inno3D Geforce 7300LE 256mb
Hitachi 160gb SATA HD
Onboard sound
Samsung 18x DVD-RW drive
Genius keyboard and mouse (ps2)
Logitech 2.1 speakers
V7 17in TFT monitor
FoxConn case with 350w PSU


When I first put the PC together and loaded windows etc everything went
fine. However a few days later, my sister complained of crashes on king.com
which turned out to be the flash player (prob with flash9b.ocx). I went
back and had a tinker to no avail and so decided to reinstall windows in
case it had somehow installed badly. No luck, a few days later the problem
was back and now accompanied by 'Generic host process' errors, random
restarts and looping between the boot sequence and the windows loading
screen. Things seem to have gotten steadily worse since then. Last night I
tried sorting the crashes and ended up with no internet and blue screens.
About 6 or 8 more attempts to reinstall windows led every time to errors
ranging from random crashes during install making it start over, blue
screens (Page fault, IRQ not less or equal and memory management errors) and
random files failing to copy, then copying after 4 or 5 retrys (can't be a
bad disc, i used 2 seperate copies of windows, both had probs).

The problem can't be with windows as I have the same copy from the same disc
on my PC and it's rock solid. My thoughts are -

Bad RAM module - The random restarts and errors would make this the most
likely culprit IMHO

Bad CPU

Bad motherboard.


I've built several PCs for myself and other people before and took the usual
anti-static precautions etc. Can anyone offer any advice or opinions
please? Personally, I reckon it's the RAM as I've seen similar problems
before. I was going to try running a memory test program, but couldn't get
windows running to download one :S

Many thanks for any advice guys and gals
Bubba

The only time I've seen this problem installing Windows XP it was a
memory timing problem. My suggestion is to download Memtest 86 and test
the memory. Also check the BIOS and make sure the memory is running at
2T and not 1T. This is the problem that I've seen when Windows blue
screened during install. Some memory and MB's won't run well together at 1T.

Bob

 

[bubba]

Hi again,

I'll ask my sister to note down all the info if a blue screen appears from
now on, thanks for the info there

if doing a clean windows
installation, don't install the drivers or software yet, and
see if there is same problem, and add back drivers one at a
time, trying different versions. I mean install a driver
like video and nothing else yet, trying to reproduce the
symptoms inbetween each change to the OS environment.

Already tried that. Took different gfx and sound drivers with me (helpfully
forgetting the memtester, doh). I've tried installing all the extra
motherboard drivers, tried them one at a time, none, tried installing virus
scanner first in case it was a virus thing etc. Always the same probs. As
the installs went on the problem seemed to be becoming more apparent (more
bluescreens and looping boot sequences) and more frequent until as I said,
blue screens and file read failures were happening even during the windows
install process. Surely that would point to a fundamental hardware prob as
opposed to something in windows (especially as it's a known working copy,
tried and tested on my PC)

Remember that if there are memory errors the OS should be
reinstalled, having an OS with potentially corrupt files can
make pinpointing problems an arduous process.

If the prog comes up with loads of errors, i'll be sending the stick back.
Hopefully, if needed a new one will cure the probs.

If it becomes a problem going back and forth to service this
system you might see if you can take it with you next time,
if that's feasible/reasonable.

Hehe, I already suggested that to her and she chased me out the house with a
large knife She's only had it 3 weeks and has already got the bug and
can't do without it, even if it crashes all the time :S I'll try and talk
her round if the mem tests come up blank as more testing will be needed.

 

[bubba]

ok, more info. My sister just phoned. She left memtest86 running overnight
and it went through 25 passes. The terminology confused her a bit but if
she read it correctly, it had thus far found 2116448 errors and rising and
no ECC errs.

Does that mean it's definitely the RAM or could it still be other things??

 

[John Jordan]

ok, more info. My sister just phoned. She left memtest86 running overnight
and it went through 25 passes. The terminology confused her a bit but if
she read it correctly, it had thus far found 2116448 errors and rising and
no ECC errs.

Does that mean it's definitely the RAM or could it still be other things??

For that volume of errors the fault could be anywhere in the memory
subsystem (CPU, motherboard, RAM), but it's most likely a PCB fault on
the memory stick or incorrect timings. A faulty PSU is a theoretical
possibility, but highly unlikely.

 

[Bob M]

ok, more info. My sister just phoned. She left memtest86 running overnight
and it went through 25 passes. The terminology confused her a bit but if
she read it correctly, it had thus far found 2116448 errors and rising and
no ECC errs.

Does that mean it's definitely the RAM or could it still be other things??

Again like I wrote before it could be a RAM memory timing. Check and
make sure the RAM is set to 2T and rerun memtest86. I worked on a system
last week that memtest 86 failed at 1T but passed all night long at 2T.

Bob

 

[kony]

ok, more info. My sister just phoned. She left memtest86 running overnight
and it went through 25 passes. The terminology confused her a bit but if
she read it correctly, it had thus far found 2116448 errors and rising and
no ECC errs.

Does that mean it's definitely the RAM or could it still be other things??

Could be the module itself if it always fails at same
addresses, or that it is marginally stable at the spec'd
speed, or the board has poor stability and needs modules
with a slight margin above the spec, or the memory voltage
needs raised a notch or two, or there is a bios bug, bios
settings change needed (to combat a bios bug if a newer bios
isn't available to combat the problem). Given the amount
of travel you have to do, it could be easier to just buy
another memory module and take it with you, swapping that if
the changes to the other things don't help.

 

[Bob Day]

ok, more info. My sister just phoned. She left memtest86 running overnight
and it went through 25 passes. The terminology confused her a bit but if
she read it correctly, it had thus far found 2116448 errors and rising and
no ECC errs.

Does that mean it's definitely the RAM or could it still be other things??

In addition to what Kony said, you might try reseating the RAM. Also,
while you're at it, you might clean out the memory sockets (and, if the
mainboard permits, try other sockets (check the manual)).

-- Bob Day