Name brand computers are ace!

[BlastUK]

this reminds me of the time i had to help fix a friend's pc which was a
compaq.. the recovery cds didn't work, there was nothing on it that you
could run.. drivers were nowhere to be found, even a search on the web
turned unsuccessful. the cases are so small and perfect for what parts
they are sold with that upgrading anything hardware inside it was
impossible.. man i hate brand name computers.

all these home-made hacks for the drive bays or w/e are not worth the
time.. besides, how many people actually have the tools to actually do
some of the stuff you mention?

 

[kony]

You don't remember our previous conversations?

Perhaps with more details but at the moment I've been
sorting through a lot of data, details, people.

I'll use the HP power supply so shouldn't have any problems with proprietry
ATX power connectors. That was a dell problem anyway wasn't it?

I'm talking about the case wiring, the front panel leads
such as power, power & HDD LED, reset, front panel audio,
etc.

So far as proprietary power supply-motherboard wiring, yes
Dell was the most notorious for changing pinouts but keeping
the same ATX-type (plastic) connector. Compaq and HP have
used some proprietary connectors but the plug wasn't exactly
the same as a standard ATX, at least on none that I recall.

The model after the one I've got did seam a little better, for example you
could break off the cd doors quite cleanly with only a little bit of trouble
and the end result was quite neat.

"Break"?
Have you taken the front bezel off the case and looked at
it? There may be a gentler way to do it.

Have you ever worked with these chips, as in designing your own boards to
use them? They are fairly flexible and allow the mobo manufacturer to
enable/disable certain features. Some of them have inbuilt flash so
manufacturers can customise some of the features of the chip.

No, I have not been making boards with these chips, but I
have always used chipset manufactuers drivers, 100% success
rate so long as it's the correct driver (obviously enough).
A theory about what "could" be, is not the same as what
actually is, and you're ignoring one of the central issues
here- OEMs don't write drivers, the drivers are supplied by
the chipset manufacterer, and can be confirmed to be the
same (version #s and CRC checks).

It would be unrealistic to think an OEM is going to enable
any chip features the chip manufactuerer didn't enable, and
undesirable to have a OEM limit your features that you
"could've" had, but again, OEMs don't write drivers.

I've done enough dodgy fixes in my life to recognise and avoid one. A new
case is a nice fix which should all bolt together. I must say I really pity
your customers when they have to fix your glued together computers.

Perhaps instead of focusing only on your failures, you
should also take a closer look at what've worked better.
You have a mental block against making the effort so of
course you won't get as good a result as if you had
approached the issue differently.

You pity my customers because you're ignorant of the fact
that just because you can't (or won't) do something, that
doesn't mean others won't have satisfactory results.

People bring their systems back to me- I am the second
person to know (after the owner) when something isn't right
and your guesses about what you won't do, have no bearing on
what I HAVE done with success.

By the time I make wood button for the floppy drive,
find some plastic and
cut and glue it,

Well I suppose if you are in a situation where you have to
"find" plastic, then yes it could be more time consuming. I
suppose it's unfathomable to me that in this day and age
there wouldn't be plastic all around you.

hack into the case with a drill and a hacksaw

I don't recall suggesting a drill and hacksaw. If you have
left out other details of things that the case may need,
then certainly you may be right, it may not be worth the
effort.

and find that
everything didn't really work that well,

What do you mean, "find"?
A solid plan well implemented will work. If that's not your
cup of tea, so be it, but that's an entirely separate issue
from whether it's possible or time-consuming to do the
simple things I'd mentioned.

I'll have spend a *lot* longer than
30 minutes and got a *lot* worse job. Not to mention I'll have a PC with a
newer and better looking case.

.... another issue never mentioned- if you don't like the
looks of the case, why did you buy it? The mods I've done
to OEM cases look *right*, like they aren't out of place at
all. Perhaps you simply haven't given it much thought, but
I've been doing such things for years. Most people do have
OEM boxes and those cases are subject to damage- especially
if there are kids present.

That's true, I could spend all weekend on it if I wanted to, but I don't
want to.

Never suggested you should spend that long... having
actually done these types of things, I know it doesn't take
that long.

That's true, although the big names put out some pretty bad systems too.

On average I find OEM boxes far more reliable than the
low-end clone boxes. Midgrade and higher varies a lot more
based on the builder and specific parts.

 

[kony]

You could be describing my experiences with my Compaq!If they ever gave an
award for the most proprietary computer ever made,the Presario 5000 series

You must have one of the rarer ones, I have a couple of
these cases here and they're not all so unique.

would be a strong contender.Here's a partial list:Case-proprietary.

Some, yes, enough to be a big problem? no. Most significant
is the lack of expandability. For example, a 2nd HDD
doesn't get cooled very well. Some do have the thicker
power supply which is another expensive or wattage-limited
issue for upgrading power hungry parts.

PSU-
Ditto.Motherboard-yep,only Compaq motherboards will fit in the case.

I suspect this is untrue. What, exactly, did you find about
a std. mATX board to be problematic, incompatible beyond the
front panel wiring harness?

They
couldn't make the CPU proprietary,so they glued that sucker solid in the
heatsink cooling fan,and made THAT proprietary!

Are you sure they didn't just use the standard thermal pad
which results in a cemented-on appearance? That's typical
of most Intel CPU with heat spreaders, you have to work
around the components on the board to get the entire thing
out or run it with the fan off to heat, melt the thermal pad
some them remove 'sink while it's still soft from the heat.

 

[kony]

this reminds me of the time i had to help fix a friend's pc which was a
compaq.. the recovery cds didn't work, there was nothing on it that you
could run.. drivers were nowhere to be found, even a search on the web
turned unsuccessful. the cases are so small and perfect for what parts
they are sold with that upgrading anything hardware inside it was
impossible.. man i hate brand name computers.

all these home-made hacks for the drive bays or w/e are not worth the
time.. besides, how many people actually have the tools to actually do
some of the stuff you mention?

Get drivers from the chipset manufacturer... Even if Compaq
DID have the drivers accessible on their 'site.

If you're not able to do something because of inexperience
(doing it) or lack of tools or supplies, sure it seems a lot
more difficult than after you've actually done it- and
that's no different than any other area of life. You might
find that if you wanted to swap a 350 big-block into a Ford
Pickup truck that this too requires a bit of hackery.

 

[kony]

WHY would you bother to partition a 34 gig drive into smaller partitions?

1) Keeping most used files on a smaller front partition
provides faster access. It's even more important on a small
drive than a large one.

2) Backup are smaller by keeping different types (per use,
not just file type) of data segragated.

It
doesn't make the data any safer, since 99% of failures are hardware
failures.

Depends on the situation... If someone had a WinXp box and
an old Win98 box, having personal data on a 2nd FAT32
partition allows moving the drive to the old box if XP craps
itself and won't run, or the system has some other type of
failure. Granted, there are cetainly other possible
resolutions, but that is one possibility.

It can make data safer though, as it is possible for a
failing drive to scramble one partition while the next
isn't... though not as common, it does happen sometimes
during the early failure stages of a drive.

It doesn't help with virii, as they'll infect D: just as fast as
C:.

Untrue. Most target the C: (Or OS) partition. It's
theoretically possibe, even observed that some viri will
scan drives and attack certain files on other parititons,
but these are generally exceptions rather than typical.

If one partition gets full you can't just say "Use the other partition",
even if it has gigs of free space.

Actually you usually can. One can simply cut and paste
their My Documents folder, or install some applications on
the other partition, or whatever... Windows likes having
everything on same partition of course, unless you change
some pointers to files in some instances, but one could not
make windows itself grow outside of that large a partition
(mentioned in this thread).

You sound like the common PC tech who takes a simple request and tries to
turn it into a full blown adventure!

What's hard about a 2nd partition? Granted it's easy to go
overboard, but there's also a resonable balance, a few
things that can be useful for (backup purposes among other
things).

 

[Captin]

They’ve been doing this for over a decade, it’s a bit late
to be noticing it now.

I’ve noticed it before, just luckily don’t encounter it often.

If you’d never even seen how HP /etc cases are always a
little proprietary, I contend that you have insufficient
experience to know one way or the other how long it will
take.

You don’t remember our previous conversations?

It’s even possible the other case’s wiring isn’t
compatible with the HP motherboard, meaning at least you’d
have to fiddle with wire positions or at worst
solder/crimp/etc together and adapter board/cable/whatever.

I’ll use the HP power supply so shouldn’t have any problems with
proprietry
ATX power connectors. That was a dell problem anyway wasn’t it?

HP has been getting better at that though, particularly when
they used Asus boards... that was one of the best things
about HP (over Compaq).

The model after the one I’ve got did seam a little better, for example
you
could break off the cd doors quite cleanly with only a little bit of
trouble
and the end result was quite neat.

That’s just it, _I_ do know.
They don’t "customize" implementations", it’s a chip, it’s
features are hardwired,

Have you ever worked with these chips, as in designing your own boards
to
use them? They are fairly flexible and allow the mobo manufacturer to
enable/disable certain features. Some of them have inbuilt flash so
manufacturers can customise some of the features of the chip.

You have no idea because you’ve never tried it. I’ve done
it several times. It doesn’t "always" work because some
drive buttons are too far away, or it could be a problem if
you don’t have plastic compatible with superglue. PVC
cement works too, but it can be a risk to thinner case
parts.

I’ve done enough dodgy fixes in my life to recognise and avoid one. A
new
case is a nice fix which should all bolt together. I must say I really
pity
your customers when they have to fix your glued together computers.

Just use a different drive. It’s not worth the hassle
really, look at it once and either fix it or move on.

Or a different case. I’ve tracked down a second hand case off a friend
which
should work nicely.

You’ve alreay spent several minutes posting here, and will
spend (by your optimistic estimate) 30 minutes to actually
move it. That’s multiple times as long.

By the time I make wood button for the floppy drive, find some plastic
and
cut and glue it, hack into the case with a drill and a hacksaw and
find that
everything didn’t really work that well, I’ll have spend a *lot*
longer than
30 minutes and got a *lot* worse job. Not to mention I’ll have a PC
with a
newer and better looking case.

True, but then again, it still goes against the idea of not
enough time.

That’s true, I could spend all weekend on it if I wanted to, but I
don’t
want to.

Maybe, but then 2/3rd of those who bought a clone would end
up with a POS system.

That’s true, although the big names put out some pretty bad systems
too.

Just like to say that the principals to repair a HP system are similar
to other computers.I don’t understand a tech who panics just because
it is a proprietry machine even if it is a Dell for that matter.
Piece of trivia is that it is in fact many Dell systems that have
their wiring for the power supply to the motherboard different to
regular ATX systems.
Just like to mention there is a simple remedy to enable the use of an
ATX power supply anyway,( Swap either two or four wires around) with
the Dell.
Also like to mention that that if you remove the face plate of a
generic floppy drive you will find it much easier to install into one
of the smart looking HP cases.

later

 

[Captin]

"kony" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
> They've been doing this for over a decade, it's a bit
late
> to be noticing it now.

I've noticed it before, just luckily don't encounter it often.

> If you'd never even seen how HP /etc cases are always a
> little proprietary, I contend that you have insufficient
> experience to know one way or the other how long it will
> take.

You don't remember our previous conversations?

> It's even possible the other case's wiring isn't
> compatible with the HP motherboard, meaning at least
you'd
> have to fiddle with wire positions or at worst
> solder/crimp/etc together and adapter
board/cable/whatever.

I'll use the HP power supply so shouldn't have any problems
with proprietry
ATX power connectors. That was a dell problem anyway wasn't
it?

> HP has been getting better at that though, particularly
when
> they used Asus boards... that was one of the best things
> about HP (over Compaq).

The model after the one I've got did seam a little better, for
example you
could break off the cd doors quite cleanly with only a little
bit of trouble
and the end result was quite neat.

> That's just it, _I_ do know.
> They don't "customize" implementations", it's a chip,
it's
> features are hardwired,

Have you ever worked with these chips, as in designing your
own boards to
use them? They are fairly flexible and allow the mobo
manufacturer to
enable/disable certain features. Some of them have inbuilt
flash so
manufacturers can customise some of the features of the chip.

> You have no idea because you've never tried it. I've
done
> it several times. It doesn't "always" work because some
> drive buttons are too far away, or it could be a problem
if
> you don't have plastic compatible with superglue. PVC
> cement works too, but it can be a risk to thinner case
> parts.

I've done enough dodgy fixes in my life to recognise and avoid
one. A new
case is a nice fix which should all bolt together. I must say
I really pity
your customers when they have to fix your glued together
computers.

> Just use a different drive. It's not worth the hassle
> really, look at it once and either fix it or move on.

Or a different case. I've tracked down a second hand case off
a friend which
should work nicely.

> You've alreay spent several minutes posting here, and
will
> spend (by your optimistic estimate) 30 minutes to
actually
> move it. That's multiple times as long.

By the time I make wood button for the floppy drive, find some
plastic and
cut and glue it, hack into the case with a drill and a hacksaw
and find that
everything didn't really work that well, I'll have spend a
*lot* longer than
30 minutes and got a *lot* worse job. Not to mention I'll have
a PC with a
newer and better looking case.

> True, but then again, it still goes against the idea of
not
> enough time.

That's true, I could spend all weekend on it if I wanted to,
but I don't
want to.

> Maybe, but then 2/3rd of those who bought a clone would
end
> up with a POS system.

That's true, although the big names put out some pretty bad
systems too.

Just like to say that the principals to repair a HP system are
similar to other computers.I don't understand a tech who
panics just because it is a proprietry machine even if it is a
Dell for that matter.
Piece of trivia is that it is in fact many Dell systems that
have their wiring for the power supply to the motherboard
different to regular ATX systems.
Just like to mention there is a simple remedy to enable the
use of an ATX power supply anyway,( Swap either two or four
wires around) with the Dell.
Also like to mention that that if you remove the face plate of
a generic floppy drive you will find it much easier to install
into one of the smart looking HP cases.

later

I really think some people may have either no experience or some
experience a while back with proprietry machines. For example the
majority of proprietry stuff based on the Pentium 4 have AGP slots,
use Intel chipsets and are usually very stable. If you work at the
lower end with organisations not flush with cash they are infact
installing video cards and some extra ram to extend the life of such
systems .
I recently rehoused a few HP tower systems for a youth centre into
generic cases mainly for the gain of an ATX power supply. Simply the
centre in NSW wanted the systems capable of playing a few games and
being capable to burn DVD’s and the biggest challenge was the capacity
of the original power supplies to cope over a long period.
It’s funny how once we installed 256Mb Radeon 9600 Pro’s, another
256Mb of DDR ram and a DVD burner that these machines would match any
other P4’s of similar specs. Infact I would say leave some of the
latter setups which support 8X AGP and DDR 400 behind.
PS More and more of these machines are becoming ATX and very straight
forward with the pressure on for some of these companies to reduce
costs.

 

[Michael C]

I'm talking about the case wiring, the front panel leads
such as power, power & HDD LED, reset, front panel audio,
etc.

That's all easy stuff.

"Break"?
Have you taken the front bezel off the case and looked at
it? There may be a gentler way to do it.

No, with the later HP they were pretty much designed to snap off. The
earlier ones you need to cut off but the jagged edge will be visible.

Perhaps instead of focusing only on your failures, you
should also take a closer look at what've worked better.
You have a mental block against making the effort so of
course you won't get as good a result as if you had
approached the issue differently.

Sure. Right at the moment I'm modifying a 40 year old australian car to put
in a new v6, gearbox, diff, brakes, steering and suspension. I know how to
modify. I also know when not to modify and making wooden floppy drive
buttons is one of those cases.

You pity my customers because you're ignorant of the fact
that just because you can't (or won't) do something, that
doesn't mean others won't have satisfactory results.

I bet they're wrapped when they get their glued plastic cases back

I don't recall suggesting a drill and hacksaw. If you have
left out other details of things that the case may need,
then certainly you may be right, it may not be worth the
effort.

Read back through my replies to you.

What do you mean, "find"?
A solid plan well implemented will work.

I really find it amasing the length you will go to to defend these
computers. Simple fact is these cases are shite, the simplest method is to
replace it and move on. You are trying *real* hard to find this case
workable when it simply is not.

If that's not your
cup of tea, so be it, but that's an entirely separate issue
from whether it's possible or time-consuming to do the
simple things I'd mentioned.

Getting that tape drive to work in this machine would not be a simple thing.

Never suggested you should spend that long... having
actually done these types of things, I know it doesn't take
that long.

Actually, having done these sort of things in the past I know they *always*
take longer than you expect. I'm certain if I sat you down with this case
you'd be there for several hours trying to come up with a reasonable
solution which would look pretty average in the end.

Michael

 

[Michael C]

Also like to mention that that if you remove the face plate of a
generic floppy drive you will find it much easier to install into one
of the smart looking HP cases.

That doesn't work. You didn't read the posts very carefully. You end up with
no door on the drive.

Michael

 

[kony]

I really find it amasing the length you will go to to defend these
computers. Simple fact is these cases are shite, the simplest method is to
replace it and move on. You are trying *real* hard to find this case
workable when it simply is not.

I'm glad you're amused, but it doesn't change the reality
that they are workable, I have upgraded TONS of people's
systems by reusing (their or spares I had) OEM cases. You
simply don't have any desire to do it, a preconceived notion
and it has prevented you from being productive in this area-
which is fine, your choice, but says less about the cases
than your willingness to solve problems rather than nitpick.

Nobody said they were ideal cases. Cheap generic cases
definitely aren't ideal either. I could as easily nitpick
about whatever case you'll use instead if it's not a
high-end case but in the end, it is pointless.

I find it amusing that you find it difficult to fit parts
into an almost standard case. So what if it needs a floppy
without a faceplate? So what if you can't use a door over a
tape drive? These are all incredibly minor issues. The
only real problem is that you have decided you don't like
the case and that preveented you from just getting done what
was necessary to use it in a time effective manner. If you
don't "like" to deal with OEM cases then don't buy OEM
systems... seems simple enough, no?

Getting that tape drive to work in this machine would not be a simple thing.

Is it this case style,
http://notas.centel.com.mx/prodcentel/notas/imageng/KG3282HEW43IG.jpg
or the older one with the silver frame and translucent
center portions? There were more than one of the silver,
and one slightly older when it was a grey opaque border.

Link to a good picture of the front of that case... One
online is sufficient if not the specimen you have there.

Actually, having done these sort of things in the past I know they *always*
take longer than you expect. I'm certain if I sat you down with this case
you'd be there for several hours trying to come up with a reasonable
solution which would look pretty average in the end.

See above request for a linked picture... I may have one or
more of those cases, honestly I lost track of case inventory
a long time ago. THen a picture of the front of these
drives you have trouble getting installed... I mean the tape
drive or whatever- I know what a standard floppy looks like
and it needed what I"d mentioned previously, a top cover
that integrated a flap. That's only $5 though, if you had
to buy one online, and another $5 to ship.

 

[Michael C]

I'm glad you're amused, but it doesn't change the reality
that they are workable

The reality is this case is not workable. It is far more cost and time
effective to replace the case than go ahead and manufacture wooden and
plastic parts glued together. I cannot believe that you even think this is a
solution.

I have upgraded TONS of people's
systems by reusing (their or spares I had) OEM cases. You
simply don't have any desire to do it, a preconceived notion
and it has prevented you from being productive in this area-
which is fine, your choice, but says less about the cases
than your willingness to solve problems rather than nitpick.

Bullshit. You are obviously prepared to go way beyond what is reasonable in
order to prove to yourself these cases are workable. Simple fact is the most
cost effective and best solution is to replace the case, that means the case
is not workable, end of story. BTW, her old machine was AT so I'm purchasing
a new case.

Nobody said they were ideal cases. Cheap generic cases
definitely aren't ideal either. I could as easily nitpick
about whatever case you'll use instead if it's not a
high-end case but in the end, it is pointless.

There's a big difference, you'd be nit picking in attempt to find problems
that didn't exist. I'm raising genuine problems. I can't think of any
problems with the cases I use, they fit a wide range of motherboards, power
supplies, 5.25" and 3.25" components and AGP and PCI cards and they're
reasonably cheap but not the cheapest. I've never encountered a problem and
my machine is stuffed full of crap. On this one HP case I've ecountered 4
different problems, and it would have been 5 if I wanted to install a second
HDD.

I find it amusing that you find it difficult to fit parts
into an almost standard case.

It's more difficult that it needs to be, you're twisting things here.

So what if it needs a floppy
without a faceplate?

It looks like crap, of course it will go nice with the wood floppy button

So what if you can't use a door over a
tape drive?

On later models it worked ok but on the earlier ones it would look terrible.

These are all incredibly minor issues.

Not really, I need to purchase a new case to solve them or spend more than
the value of the PC in time to fix them.

The
only real problem is that you have decided you don't like
the case and that preveented you from just getting done what
was necessary to use it in a time effective manner.

Not really, I've located a new case and am going to fix it in a cost
effective manner and come up with a non-hacky solution.

If you
don't "like" to deal with OEM cases then don't buy OEM
systems... seems simple enough, no?

That's pretty much what I do.

Is it this case style,
http://notas.centel.com.mx/prodcentel/notas/imageng/KG3282HEW43IG.jpg
or the older one with the silver frame and translucent
center portions? There were more than one of the silver,
and one slightly older when it was a grey opaque border.

I wish it was that one! That looks almost workable. It's silver around the
outside with purple in the middle but no translucent.

See above request for a linked picture... I may have one or
more of those cases, honestly I lost track of case inventory
a long time ago. THen a picture of the front of these
drives you have trouble getting installed... I mean the tape
drive or whatever- I know what a standard floppy looks like
and it needed what I"d mentioned previously, a top cover
that integrated a flap. That's only $5 though, if you had
to buy one online, and another $5 to ship.

I might take some pics tonight.

Michael

 

[Captin]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's
computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make
everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

The first convenience was I had to replace the floppy drive
but I can't
because luckily a standard floppy drive doesn't fit. I could
make it fit but
I'd need to mount it about 5 mm further back in the case.
Fortunately they
didn't provide a means of doing this so I'd need to drill
holes in the case.
Except on one side you can't because there's only a small area
where the
screw fits and there's no metal 5mms back, so it would only
have one screw.
The end result would look awesome with a beige floppy drive
door behind
their beautiful dark purple case.

The second convenience was their sound card. Drivers for it
only come on
their beautifully modified versions of XP which I don't have.
I couldn't
find any drivers on the internet including their site so had
to install a
PCI sound card. Every other driver existed on their site, such
as video,
network but no sound for some reason. I couldn't identify the
motherboard so
I couldn't go to the manufacturer.

The third convenience was the doors that cover the CD rom. I
wanted to
install an old tape backup drive but the button on the door
doesn't line up
with the eject button on the tape. It wouldn't work anyway
because ejecting
the tape wouldn't push the door open and there'd be no way to
get the door
open if there was no tape in the drive anyway. To solve this
I'd need to get
a hacksaw out and cut into the case.

The fourth convenience was I was going to install a card
reader that sat in
a 3.5" floppy drive bay, except of course this case doesn't
have 3.5" floppy
drive bays, unless of course I get out the hacksaw again.

The end result of all this is I'm getting the chance to swap
all the
components into her existing case which means the old computer
will not be
usable anymore. What's a bet I encounter just as many
conveniences on the
way, I can already imagine the power supply won't fit and the
ATX backshell
won't fit. If I'm lucky the motherbaord won't use standard
mounting points
and I'll be able to get out the drill again

I can see why people buys these computers, they are just ace.
Square plain
beige clones are just way too standard and don't provide the
fun of all
these challenges when upgrading.

Michael

I thought I should share some good news.
The HP systems rehoused in generic cases have been totally boring and
had no problems.
I actually purchased some 400W Thermaltake power supplies for $40
each and sold off the no name 500W power supplies inside the cases for
$25 each. I just thought for few extra dollars it would do no harm and
a genuine 400w power supply is sufficient for the job.

I don’t know if I mentioned but unlike some earlier proprietry
machines the Pentium 4 based systems tend to be more conventional in
some ways.
For example you can install them in generic cases without crimping
wires like some of us have done in the past with earlier proprietry
machines.
I usually do a fresh install of windows and download the latest
drivers from HP?Compaq Support and other companies for the devices
etc. Even with out a recovery disc at all you can download it from HP.

I also find Intel helpful sometimes and the more you think about it
in some ways these companies build systems with a conservative formula
in mind considering that they are likely to run all day inside
organisations that won’t spend a penny on a machine unless they have
to