Name brand computers are ace!

[Michael C]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

The first convenience was I had to replace the floppy drive but I can't
because luckily a standard floppy drive doesn't fit. I could make it fit but
I'd need to mount it about 5 mm further back in the case. Fortunately they
didn't provide a means of doing this so I'd need to drill holes in the case.
Except on one side you can't because there's only a small area where the
screw fits and there's no metal 5mms back, so it would only have one screw.
The end result would look awesome with a beige floppy drive door behind
their beautiful dark purple case.

The second convenience was their sound card. Drivers for it only come on
their beautifully modified versions of XP which I don't have. I couldn't
find any drivers on the internet including their site so had to install a
PCI sound card. Every other driver existed on their site, such as video,
network but no sound for some reason. I couldn't identify the motherboard so
I couldn't go to the manufacturer.

The third convenience was the doors that cover the CD rom. I wanted to
install an old tape backup drive but the button on the door doesn't line up
with the eject button on the tape. It wouldn't work anyway because ejecting
the tape wouldn't push the door open and there'd be no way to get the door
open if there was no tape in the drive anyway. To solve this I'd need to get
a hacksaw out and cut into the case.

The fourth convenience was I was going to install a card reader that sat in
a 3.5" floppy drive bay, except of course this case doesn't have 3.5" floppy
drive bays, unless of course I get out the hacksaw again.

The end result of all this is I'm getting the chance to swap all the
components into her existing case which means the old computer will not be
usable anymore. What's a bet I encounter just as many conveniences on the
way, I can already imagine the power supply won't fit and the ATX backshell
won't fit. If I'm lucky the motherbaord won't use standard mounting points
and I'll be able to get out the drill again

I can see why people buys these computers, they are just ace. Square plain
beige clones are just way too standard and don't provide the fun of all
these challenges when upgrading.

Michael

 

[Jamie]

i was beginning to think you were serious with the subject and first
paragraph. Was going to commit you to a mental hospital

 

[BruceM]

That's why when people bring them in for me to fix I just flatly refuse. No
challenge in 'em at all.
I just tell 'em to pop the "fixall" disk in & kiss all their data good bye.
No fun in that?

 

[Noozer]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

Yup... You also sound like you'd get pissed off that you couldn't haul
lumber in a Yugo either.

 

[Michael C]

Yup... You also sound like you'd get pissed off that you couldn't haul
lumber in a Yugo either.

I know what you're saying, the name brand machines fit a certain purpose
which would be fine if they didn't make deliberate attempts at hindering the
upgradability and repairability of their machines.

Michael

 

[Marc Hulsebosch]

I know what you're saying, the name brand machines fit a certain purpose
which would be fine if they didn't make deliberate attempts at hindering the
upgradability and repairability of their machines.

Michael

But if those computers aren't upgradable, and you as computer technician
refuse to do it, what will those people do? Right: they buy a new one.
And it is likely that they walk to the local store where some saleman
tells them that a Sempron 2600+ is the most powerfull processor around,
256 MB RAM will be sufficient for the next 3 years and that they will
never need more space then on a 40 GB HD. Unless of course you say
"NOOOOOOOO!" and build one from scratch.

Marc

 

[kony]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

Why would you buy a sub-2GHz P4? They're incredibly slow.
AT least wipe the drive, don't run all that HP crap in the
background.

The first convenience was I had to replace the floppy drive but I can't
because luckily a standard floppy drive doesn't fit. I could make it fit but
I'd need to mount it about 5 mm further back in the case. Fortunately they
didn't provide a means of doing this so I'd need to drill holes in the case.
Except on one side you can't because there's only a small area where the
screw fits and there's no metal 5mms back, so it would only have one screw.
The end result would look awesome with a beige floppy drive door behind
their beautiful dark purple case.

Try taking off the floppy faceplate. You probably don't
need any special floppy drive, at the very most you might
need to find a matching eject button or just whittle one out
of wood or whatever and color it.

The second convenience was their sound card. Drivers for it only come on
their beautifully modified versions of XP which I don't have.

Untrue. You can download them from the respective (sound)
chipset manufacturer, if you couldn't find them on HP's
website.

I couldn't
find any drivers on the internet including their site so had to install a
PCI sound card. Every other driver existed on their site, such as video,
network but no sound for some reason. I couldn't identify the motherboard so
I couldn't go to the manufacturer.

You wouldn't go to the motherboard manufacturer, you'd go to
the sound chip manufacturer. Look on the board for an audio
chip... if there isn't one, write down the markings on the
southbridge. Using the information of which chips are in
it, is the best way to get the newest, least buggy driver.
IF you had found one on HP's site, it would still be better
to go to the sound chip manufacturer instead.

The third convenience was the doors that cover the CD rom. I wanted to
install an old tape backup drive but the button on the door doesn't line up
with the eject button on the tape.

True. You need to get a piece of stiff plastic and
super-glue it on, so it extends over to the replacement
drive's button. I kid you not... I don't recall doing it
for a tape drive though, if the button is off by too much
then just take the case's CDROM door off.

It wouldn't work anyway because ejecting
the tape wouldn't push the door open and there'd be no way to get the door
open if there was no tape in the drive anyway. To solve this I'd need to get
a hacksaw out and cut into the case.

Then why are you writing this- start sawing.
HP cases aren't perfect, but you DID buy the thing... it's
workable if you use the force, Luke.

The fourth convenience was I was going to install a card reader that sat in
a 3.5" floppy drive bay, except of course this case doesn't have 3.5" floppy
drive bays, unless of course I get out the hacksaw again.

So buy a 5 1/4" bay adapter tray that mounts 3.5" "stuff",
and take that bay's door off.

The end result of all this is I'm getting the chance to swap all the
components into her existing case which means the old computer will not be
usable anymore. What's a bet I encounter just as many conveniences on the
way, I can already imagine the power supply won't fit and the ATX backshell
won't fit. If I'm lucky the motherbaord won't use standard mounting points
and I'll be able to get out the drill again

It's really not as bad as you make it out to be... but yes,
OEM boxes in general are not as generic/accomodating to
random parts installations, but it's still possible.

I can see why people buys these computers, they are just ace. Square plain
beige clones are just way too standard and don't provide the fun of all
these challenges when upgrading.

They buy them because they're meant to be whole systems, for
those who aren't adding things. They also buy them because
only the large OEMs do much advertising on TV or have a
significant presence in many retail stores.

 

[Michael C]

Why would you buy a sub-2GHz P4? They're incredibly slow.
AT least wipe the drive, don't run all that HP crap in the
background.

There's nothing at all wrong with a 1.8 P4.

Try taking off the floppy faceplate. You probably don't
need any special floppy drive,

I tried all that, I can take the faceplate off but the door is part of the
floppy so you'll be able to see right in. The door won't attach to the new
floppy.

at the very most you might
need to find a matching eject button or just whittle one out
of wood or whatever and color it.

You've got to be ****ing kidding me!!!

Untrue. You can download them from the respective (sound)
chipset manufacturer, if you couldn't find them on HP's
website.

Maybe that's possible, I'll have a look. Even so HP should provide a driver,
it's their machine.

True. You need to get a piece of stiff plastic and
super-glue it on, so it extends over to the replacement
drive's button. I kid you not...

Surely you are. Wooden floppy drive buttons with no door and plastic
superglued to the tape drive. This machine is going to be even acer than hp
made it originally

I don't recall doing it
for a tape drive though, if the button is off by too much
then just take the case's CDROM door off.

I've done it with some name brand machines but it's not really possible with
this particular one without it being a huge hack.

Then why are you writing this- start sawing.
HP cases aren't perfect, but you DID buy the thing... it's
workable if you use the force, Luke.

Maybe you've got more spare time than me.

So buy a 5 1/4" bay adapter tray that mounts 3.5" "stuff",
and take that bay's door off.

Same problem as above.

It's really not as bad as you make it out to be... but yes,
OEM boxes in general are not as generic/accomodating to
random parts installations, but it's still possible.

That's exactly my point, although I disagree on it being possible because
it's just not economic as far as time goes.

They buy them because they're meant to be whole systems, for
those who aren't adding things.

I think it's largely ignorance. Pretty much everyone at one time or another
adds something to their PCs

They also buy them because
only the large OEMs do much advertising on TV or have a
significant presence in many retail stores.

That's a pity really.

Michael

 

[Gojira]

You could be describing my experiences with my Compaq!If they ever gave an
award for the most proprietary computer ever made,the Presario 5000 series
would be a strong contender.Here's a partial list:Case-proprietary. PSU-
Ditto.Motherboard-yep,only Compaq motherboards will fit in the case.They
couldn't make the CPU proprietary,so they glued that sucker solid in the
heatsink cooling fan,and made THAT proprietary!

 

[pjdd]

You could be describing my experiences with my Compaq!If they ever gave an
award for the most proprietary computer ever made,the Presario 5000 series
would be a strong contender.Here's a partial list:Case-proprietary. PSU-
Ditto.Motherboard-yep,only Compaq motherboards will fit in the case.They
couldn't make the CPU proprietary,so they glued that sucker solid in the
heatsink cooling fan,and made THAT proprietary!

My wife asked me to install Winamp in her IBM office computer. She's a
junior officer in a government office and the computer, used mainly as
a glorified typewriter, was probably supplied by a contractor at an
exhorbitant price.

The 40GB hard disk has only one visible partition plus a hidden backup
partition. I thought it would be better if her 34GB C: drive was
divided into two or more partitions, but I wanted to play safe and
remove the hard disk to make a ghost of the entire contents on another
hard disk first. It turned out that to remove the hard disk I'd have to
remove the motherboard first, to do which I'd also have to remove the
PSU. And who knows what other "conveniences" would crop up.

I decided to install Winamp from my utilities CD and leave everything
else alone.

 

[philo]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

<snip>

Yep..nothing like a proprietary machine to present a nice challenge...
although i've never let one beat me yet...
that's what drills, nibblers and sawzalls are for
Heck...my own machine is an ATX mobo in a well modified AT style case.

Back...not too long ago when hi-tech meant and AMD-450/550...
I used to love all those 286 through 486 machines that you could pickup
free by the truckload...
then get a nice super-socket-7 mobo and build a nice amd machine in an old
case (and even use the same powersupply)
my favorite ones were the AMD-450's I built using those 286 cases with the
big red switch on them...
Most of the time I'd leave the "286" or "386" label right on them.

Of course...whenever I take a saw or drill to a proprietary machine to
"tame" it...
I need to strip it down completely to avoid metal filings from floating
around...I usually give the modified case a good vacuuming after I've
filed off any rough edges...and thsu far...all has been quite well here.

Another pet peeve are those machines with those micro ATX powersupplies
that always seem to burn out..However I've always managed to get a full
sized supply into one of those machines...
though a few times i had to mount the supply so that it stuck out the back
an inch or two!

 

[Analabha Roy]

lol. I've had similar problems upgrading my Gateway 310X. In retrospect, my
TCO/efforts would probably have been less if I had just built mi pc from
scratch, but I have managed to get dvd-RW's, stronger PSU, more RAM, scsi
controller/hd, tv-tuner, and radeon acc graphics to work (more or less). My
greatest frustration has been the lack of AGP ports (had to use PCI for the
radeon, and those don't come with DRI-capable linux drivers, DRI only works

 

[kony]

There's nothing at all wrong with a 1.8 P4.

Of course not, except that it's slower than same priced and
same age P3 or Celeron Tualatin 1.4GHz, or an Athlon. In
other words, relatively speaking they are incredibly slow.
Don't you recall a bunch of OEM customers suing over Intel's
marketing of the early P4 models and their lack of
performance?

I tried all that, I can take the faceplate off but the door is part of the
floppy so you'll be able to see right in. The door won't attach to the new
floppy.

The top cover on floppy drives can vary. Some have two
tabs, each with a hole for a springed slot cover... but
others put the slot cover on the front. You might check at
a local mom-n-pop computer shop as OEM style drives with the
flap mounted on the top cover are often sitting idle, since
they can't so easily be reused on a generic case without any
faceplate. well they could of course but it'd be ugly.

You've got to be ****ing kidding me!!!

I don't have your case here so I can't tell you the
best/easiest/whatever, but there are lots of ways to solve
problems if you have common tools and sufficient experience
using them. It's not like I'm suggesting this as a plan
_before_buying such a system, but it's not like tearing down
another system (or buying another case), and reassembling it
all in another case is very quick either.

Maybe that's possible, I'll have a look. Even so HP should provide a driver,
it's their machine.

BUT, you shouldn't want the driver HP had, if they had one.
Just go to the chipset manufacturer first and prentend it's
not an HP box at all except for bios updates.

Surely you are. Wooden floppy drive buttons with no door and plastic
superglued to the tape drive. This machine is going to be even acer than hp
made it originally

There are quite a few oem cases that have a long plastic
lever-like extension behind the button. IMO it's not really
significant whether it was there already or you glue it
on... what's the big deal, it'd take about 3 minutes?

I've done it with some name brand machines but it's not really possible with
this particular one without it being a huge hack.


Maybe you've got more spare time than me.

It takes longer to do what you'll end up doing than to fix
it.

That's exactly my point, although I disagree on it being possible because
it's just not economic as far as time goes.

Who are you trying to kid? If time were at a premium, you
wouldn't be telling us about it now. If it's that bad for
you, just sell it, move on, buy something else instead.

I think it's largely ignorance. Pretty much everyone at one time or another
adds something to their PCs

Actually most people don't. Readers of this/other
newsgroups are atypical users. Almost every OEM box brought
to me has not had any component changes and is only brought
in with software or hardware failure so it's to take out and
direct replace, the replacement part(s) are chosen with the
system in mind.

That's a pity really.

They don't use it for anything more. Many people do not
need more than websurfing, office, email, etc, and buy a box
once every few years so they also need new OS/etc, making
the OEM box a fair value until you get to the part about the
illusion of OEM support and how they just have the owner
wipe the drive whenever the wind blows in the wrong
direction.

 

[Michael C]

The top cover on floppy drives can vary. Some have two
tabs, each with a hole for a springed slot cover... but
others put the slot cover on the front. You might check at
a local mom-n-pop computer shop as OEM style drives with the
flap mounted on the top cover are often sitting idle, since
they can't so easily be reused on a generic case without any
faceplate. well they could of course but it'd be ugly.

I could do all this but this is beside the point, or maybe it's exactly the
point. HP have caused me huge hassle with their crappy design.

I don't have your case here so I can't tell you the
best/easiest/whatever, but there are lots of ways to solve
problems if you have common tools and sufficient experience
using them. It's not like I'm suggesting this as a plan
_before_buying such a system, but it's not like tearing down
another system (or buying another case), and reassembling it
all in another case is very quick either.

Putting a PC into another case is quick, I'd say half an hour at most.

BUT, you shouldn't want the driver HP had, if they had one.
Just go to the chipset manufacturer first and prentend it's
not an HP box at all except for bios updates.

I'd prefer the HP driver myself, you don't know how they've customised this
particular implementation and what features they've added.

There are quite a few oem cases that have a long plastic
lever-like extension behind the button. IMO it's not really
significant whether it was there already or you glue it
on... what's the big deal, it'd take about 3 minutes?

More than likely it wouldn't work that well, take a *lot* longer than 3
minutes and fall off eventually anyway. I'd still have no way to get that
crappy door open anyway.

It takes longer to do what you'll end up doing than to fix
it.

You've gotta be kidding me.

Who are you trying to kid? If time were at a premium, you
wouldn't be telling us about it now. If it's that bad for
you, just sell it, move on, buy something else instead.

Time spent on the newsgroup is different, it's leasure time in a way.

Actually most people don't. Readers of this/other
newsgroups are atypical users. Almost every OEM box brought
to me has not had any component changes and is only brought
in with software or hardware failure so it's to take out and
direct replace, the replacement part(s) are chosen with the
system in mind.

Most of the OEM boxes I've had brought to me have been for some sort of
upgrade. If I think about the people I service they are always adding
something to at least some of their PCs.

They don't use it for anything more. Many people do not
need more than websurfing, office, email, etc, and buy a box
once every few years so they also need new OS/etc, making
the OEM box a fair value until you get to the part about the
illusion of OEM support and how they just have the owner
wipe the drive whenever the wind blows in the wrong
direction.

I can bet that if I could talk to 100 people before they purchased a name
brand and properly educate them on the problems with these machines 90 of
them would buy a clone.

Michael

 

[Starz_Kid]

I just bought a second hand HP P4 1.8 to replace my mother's computer. I
really love the way these companies reinvent things and make everything
proprietry and different, it's just sooooo convenient.

Hi Michael, Now Really...! Buying your own MOM a USED computer . . . ! ! !
!

SHOCKING....!

S_H_O_C_K_I_N_G

Starz_Kid...

 

[kony]

I could do all this but this is beside the point, or maybe it's exactly the
point. HP have caused me huge hassle with their crappy design.

They've been doing this for over a decade, it's a bit late
to be noticing it now.

Putting a PC into another case is quick, I'd say half an hour at most.

If you'd never even seen how HP /etc cases are always a
little proprietary, I contend that you have insufficient
experience to know one way or the other how long it will
take. It's even possible the other case's wiring isn't
compatible with the HP motherboard, meaning at least you'd
have to fiddle with wire positions or at worst
solder/crimp/etc together and adapter board/cable/whatever.
HP has been getting better at that though, particularly when
they used Asus boards... that was one of the best things
about HP (over Compaq).

I'd prefer the HP driver myself, you don't know how they've customised this
particular implementation and what features they've added.

That's just it, _I_ do know.
They don't "customize" implementations", it's a chip, it's
features are hardwired, and it's interfaced by a driver the
manufactuerer specifically wrote for it. HP does NOT write
drivers... they do silly writeups and rename things and add
to some kind of generalized idea that it makes the customer
think HP is doing something special. Even more special
would be if they just cut out all the BS and simply linked
to the newest driver.

More than likely it wouldn't work that well, take a *lot* longer than 3
minutes and fall off eventually anyway. I'd still have no way to get that
crappy door open anyway.

You have no idea because you've never tried it. I've done
it several times. It doesn't "always" work because some
drive buttons are too far away, or it could be a problem if
you don't have plastic compatible with superglue. PVC
cement works too, but it can be a risk to thinner case
parts.

Just use a different drive. It's not worth the hassle
really, look at it once and either fix it or move on.

You've gotta be kidding me.

You've alreay spent several minutes posting here, and will
spend (by your optimistic estimate) 30 minutes to actually
move it. That's multiple times as long.

Time spent on the newsgroup is different, it's leasure time in a way.

True, but then again, it still goes against the idea of not
enough time.

I can bet that if I could talk to 100 people before they purchased a name
brand and properly educate them on the problems with these machines 90 of
them would buy a clone.

Maybe, but then 2/3rd of those who bought a clone would end
up with a POS system. Those who don't know any better, also
are most likely not able to differentiate between good and
bad clone builds.

 

[Noozer]

My wife asked me to install Winamp in her IBM office computer. She's a
junior officer in a government office and the computer, used mainly as
a glorified typewriter, was probably supplied by a contractor at an
exhorbitant price.

The 40GB hard disk has only one visible partition plus a hidden backup
partition. I thought it would be better if her 34GB C: drive was
divided into two or more partitions, but I wanted to play safe and
remove the hard disk to make a ghost of the entire contents on another
hard disk first. It turned out that to remove the hard disk I'd have to
remove the motherboard first, to do which I'd also have to remove the
PSU. And who knows what other "conveniences" would crop up.

WHY would you bother to partition a 34 gig drive into smaller partitions? It
doesn't make the data any safer, since 99% of failures are hardware
failures. It doesn't help with virii, as they'll infect D: just as fast as
C:. If one partition gets full you can't just say "Use the other partition",
even if it has gigs of free space.

You sound like the common PC tech who takes a simple request and tries to
turn it into a full blown adventure!

 

[Michael C]

They've been doing this for over a decade, it's a bit late
to be noticing it now.

I've noticed it before, just luckily don't encounter it often.

If you'd never even seen how HP /etc cases are always a
little proprietary, I contend that you have insufficient
experience to know one way or the other how long it will
take.

You don't remember our previous conversations?

It's even possible the other case's wiring isn't
compatible with the HP motherboard, meaning at least you'd
have to fiddle with wire positions or at worst
solder/crimp/etc together and adapter board/cable/whatever.

I'll use the HP power supply so shouldn't have any problems with proprietry
ATX power connectors. That was a dell problem anyway wasn't it?

HP has been getting better at that though, particularly when
they used Asus boards... that was one of the best things
about HP (over Compaq).

The model after the one I've got did seam a little better, for example you
could break off the cd doors quite cleanly with only a little bit of trouble
and the end result was quite neat.

That's just it, _I_ do know.
They don't "customize" implementations", it's a chip, it's
features are hardwired,

Have you ever worked with these chips, as in designing your own boards to
use them? They are fairly flexible and allow the mobo manufacturer to
enable/disable certain features. Some of them have inbuilt flash so
manufacturers can customise some of the features of the chip.

You have no idea because you've never tried it. I've done
it several times. It doesn't "always" work because some
drive buttons are too far away, or it could be a problem if
you don't have plastic compatible with superglue. PVC
cement works too, but it can be a risk to thinner case
parts.

I've done enough dodgy fixes in my life to recognise and avoid one. A new
case is a nice fix which should all bolt together. I must say I really pity
your customers when they have to fix your glued together computers.

Just use a different drive. It's not worth the hassle
really, look at it once and either fix it or move on.

Or a different case. I've tracked down a second hand case off a friend which
should work nicely.

You've alreay spent several minutes posting here, and will
spend (by your optimistic estimate) 30 minutes to actually
move it. That's multiple times as long.

By the time I make wood button for the floppy drive, find some plastic and
cut and glue it, hack into the case with a drill and a hacksaw and find that
everything didn't really work that well, I'll have spend a *lot* longer than
30 minutes and got a *lot* worse job. Not to mention I'll have a PC with a
newer and better looking case.

True, but then again, it still goes against the idea of not
enough time.

That's true, I could spend all weekend on it if I wanted to, but I don't
want to.

Maybe, but then 2/3rd of those who bought a clone would end
up with a POS system.

That's true, although the big names put out some pretty bad systems too.

Michael

 

[Michael C]

Hi Michael, Now Really...! Buying your own MOM a USED computer . . . ! !
!
!

SHOCKING....!

S_H_O_C_K_I_N_G

Come on, she only devoted 20 years of her life to bringing me up.

Michael

 

[pjdd]

WHY would you bother to partition a 34 gig drive into smaller partitions?

Because my wife is among the most computer-literate in her department
and SHE doesn't know where her saved documents are located. Because her
computer is also used by people who click "Yes" to everything.

Because people often mess things up so badly that the C: drive has to
be wiped clean and the OS and other software have to be re-installed.
Because already having user data such as My Documents, mp3s, games, etc
in another partition makes the job easier.

It

doesn't make the data any safer, since 99% of failures are hardware
failures.

Maybe within your own experience, but not with mine. At least 80% of
the problems brought to me are caused by messed-up software.

It doesn't help with virii, as they'll infect D: just as fast as C:.

Haven't you ever had to deal with a virus infection that had not yet
spread beyond one partition ?

If one partition gets full you can't just say "Use the other partition",
even if it has gigs of free space.

True. But this can be largely avoided by an intelligent partitioning
and usage scheme. Remember when a 4GB hard disk was huge and people had
several partitions ?

You sound like the common PC tech who takes a simple request and tries to
turn it into a full blown adventure!

Yeah. That's how we become skilled techs. I'm a tinkerer (who knows
when to stop) and I'd rather be that than a stiff-necked by-the-book
operator who does (and knows) just enough to get paid.