multi-pass scanning on old Nikon LS20

L

ljbartel

I recently downloaded and tried VueScan with my old Nikon LS20 film
scanner. The software offers multi-pass scanning but can it really
reduce noise on this old scanner? I seems to function fine but was
wondering if it was any use since the slide makes multiple passes
through the mechanism.

thanks
 
D

Don

I recently downloaded and tried VueScan with my old Nikon LS20 film
scanner. The software offers multi-pass scanning but can it really
reduce noise on this old scanner? I seems to function fine but was
wondering if it was any use since the slide makes multiple passes
through the mechanism.

If the scanner doesn't support *single-pass* multiscanning, any
software methods trying to emulate this with *multi-pass*
multiscanning will only make matter worse.

VueScan's attempt at this is useless (like, IMHO, VueScan itself).
It's a time consuming way to blur an image without reducing noise.

You could do the same thing in NikonScan by scanning repeatedly and
then combining all images manually in image editing software of your
choice.

As you suspect, making multiple passes does not reduce noise because
the stepper motor (which moves the scanning mechanism) is too inexact.
This means each scan is of a slightly different area of film and
combining them is pointless - unless you line up individual scans.
This may involve sub-pixel movement which will then blur the image.

In any case, VueScan just blindly combines these images which is
totally pointless.

Don.
 
L

LJB

Thanks for the info confirming my suspicion. I tried several multi-pass
scans and couldn't detect any improvement. However I didn't detect any
image degradation either.

LJB
 
R

Ralf R. Radermacher

LJB said:
Thanks for the info confirming my suspicion.

Do note that this info came from our resident Vuescan basher. Trust your
own eyes.

Ralf
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

I recently downloaded and tried VueScan with my old Nikon LS20 film
scanner. The software offers multi-pass scanning but can it really
reduce noise on this old scanner? I seems to function fine but was
wondering if it was any use since the slide makes multiple passes
through the mechanism.
The first time I used Vuescan was with a Nikon LS-20. I had been in the
process of writing some software to automatically align and merge some
individual scans for the sole purpose of noise reduction - in fact, it
is more effective in a scanner as old as the LS-20, with its noisy CCD
and 10-bit ADC, than it would be in some of the newer ones. The
multi-pass option of Vuescan offered to do that for me, so it was worth
evaluating. A few attempts showed that it wasn't going to deliver - at
least not with the LS-20 - but it also saved me a software task by
demonstrating a few unforeseen problems that meant the task was a lot
more difficult than I had initially envisioned. Consequently, I never
bothered with my own software solution.

The LS-20 scanner is different from many high performance film scanners
in that it moves the film past the scanner head rather than moving the
scan head and optics past the film. The result is that not only can the
position of each image change relative to others, but they can rotate
slightly in the drive as it is cycled back and forth and even scan at
slightly different steps due to minute slippage of the film in the
transport mechanism. So even if Vuescan included a facility to align
the centres of all of the images perfectly, they would be out of
alignment at the edges and corners. Of course, all the random structure
averages out, so the image still looks "cleaner", with less noise - but
it is much softer than the single pass scan because the averages are not
taken from the same points in the image for each pass.

What is needed is a proper image registration facility with rotation and
warping capability as well as basic sub-pixel alignment. Fortunately,
this is a common problem in lots of fields other than scanning,
including astronomy and medical tomography, so there are now quite a lot
of packages around that will do this correctly. For example, Astra
Image 2 has the facility to align several scans even when they are at
different scales and rotation. Mira is another application that does
the same thing. So there are lots of ways of doing this now - some
groups have even openly published C-code if you want to write your own
application.

In fact, there is a whole new branch of amateur astronomy developing
based on a modification of registered multiscanning, called "Lucky
Imaging", or LI. The biggest problem for a ground based astronomy
telescope is atmospheric turbulence, which blurs the images as the air
changes its density by minute amounts directly in the line of sight of
the telescope. However, every so often the atmosphere is relatively
still, so the image is quite sharp for just a fraction of a second.
Normally, the CCD on a telescope would be set to image for a long
exposure time, to capture the faintest amount of light and this means
that, just as with multipass scanning on your LS-20, the image is
blurred by the atmospheric turbulence. In LI they run the CCD quite
fast with short exposure times, capturing every frame. Each frame is
then analysed and the blurred images rejected automatically, leaving
only the sharp images to be "multiscanned" - after being properly
registered, of course. Some amateurs have produced planetary images
that rival those of the Hubble Telescope using LI, and more professional
arrangements have achieved the same on faint galactic objects.

Anyway, back to your LS-20 and Vuescan - yes multipass multiscanning
does reduce noise in the scanned image, and it works at least as well on
the LS-20 as in any modern scanner; however, the precision of the LS-20
isn't good enough for it to work without a noticeable image softening
due to mis-registration of the images. There are other applications
around that can compensate for these deficiencies though, so you can
overcome the problem if you really can't stretch to a modern scanner.
 
M

MPA

I recently downloaded and tried VueScan with my old Nikon LS20 film
scanner. The software offers multi-pass scanning but can it really
reduce noise on this old scanner? I seems to function fine but was
wondering if it was any use since the slide makes multiple passes
through the mechanism.

thanks
very interesting. i have also that tandem and will soon start
calibration process with producing my own profiles. there is a website
where one can download free of charge profiling tools. but i will
produce also my own calibration films. we will see what will give best
results. is that multipass scanning new in newer version of vuescan? i
didnt recognize before. plustek optifilm 7200 has also a multipass-like
process but film will stay fixed.
 
R

RichardGear

Don said:
If the scanner doesn't support *single-pass* multiscanning, any
software methods trying to emulate this with *multi-pass*
multiscanning will only make matter worse.

VueScan's attempt at this is useless (like, IMHO, VueScan itself).
It's a time consuming way to blur an image without reducing noise.

You could do the same thing in NikonScan by scanning repeatedly and
then combining all images manually in image editing software of your
choice.

As you suspect, making multiple passes does not reduce noise because
the stepper motor (which moves the scanning mechanism) is too inexact.
This means each scan is of a slightly different area of film and
combining them is pointless - unless you line up individual scans.
This may involve sub-pixel movement which will then blur the image.

In any case, VueScan just blindly combines these images which is
totally pointless.

Don.

It should be noted that there are scanners that have hardware support to
produce multiscans without blurring the images. Some can multi-sample
each pixel without moving the stepping motor, and some can keep the
stepping motor's registration unchanged between passes.
 
R

RichardGear

Kennedy said:
The LS-20 scanner is different from many high performance film scanners
in that it moves the film past the scanner head rather than moving the
scan head and optics past the film.

Both my Polaroid SS4000 and Minolta 5400 move the film carriers over the
scan heads and light sources. Are the Nikon LS5000, Canon ??? etc.
different?
 
L

LJB

Thank you for your very informative reply. I agree it is probably time
to upgrade to another scanner. I acquired the LS20 used and at no cost
about a year ago. I've scanned 4000+ slides by now using the Nikon
software and am generally happy with the results. Just being able to
locate them, call them up quickly, create slide shows and view them on
my PC is great. The LS20 seems to require a specific scsi card and its
only available in isa not pci buss. Not too many mother boards around
anymore that support eisa.

Fascinating info on "Lucky Imaging" astronomy. I'll have to read more
about that.

thanks
LJB
 
J

J M Widome

LJB said:
Thank you for your very informative reply. I agree it is probably time
to upgrade to another scanner. I acquired the LS20 used and at no cost
about a year ago. I've scanned 4000+ slides by now using the Nikon
software and am generally happy with the results. Just being able to
locate them, call them up quickly, create slide shows and view them on
my PC is great. The LS20 seems to require a specific scsi card and its
only available in isa not pci buss. Not too many mother boards around
anymore that support eisa.

Fascinating info on "Lucky Imaging" astronomy. I'll have to read more
about that.

thanks
LJB


My LS20 uses an Adaptec 2906 PCI board just fine.

Jan
 
J

J M Widome

I recently downloaded and tried VueScan with my old Nikon LS20 film
scanner. The software offers multi-pass scanning but can it really
reduce noise on this old scanner? I seems to function fine but was
wondering if it was any use since the slide makes multiple passes
through the mechanism.

thanks
Try silverfast Ai6. It can do up to 16 rescans for the sole purpose of
just what you want - and yes, I use this on an LS-20.

Jan
 
L

LJB

That may be the key! None of the other cards I tried were Adaptec. I
was able to find the Adaptec card recommended in Nikon's documentation
on E-Bay. I'll check on the 2906 PCI.

thanks
 
J

J M Widome

LJB said:
That may be the key! None of the other cards I tried were Adaptec. I
was able to find the Adaptec card recommended in Nikon's documentation
on E-Bay. I'll check on the 2906 PCI.

thanks

Correction - try the AIC 7850 first, although the 2906 may work just as
well.

Jan
 
L

LJB

Jan, do you by any chance know if Windows XP sp2 supports the AIC 7850?
Searching the news groups leaves me doubting that it does.

thanks
 
D

Don

Thanks for the info confirming my suspicion. I tried several multi-pass
scans and couldn't detect any improvement. However I didn't detect any
image degradation either.

I don't know how you tested but I look at the images magnified,
usually about 300-400%. Comparing a single pass scan to a multi-pass
multi-scan clearly shows softening of the multi-pass image.

Also, doing two scans in succession and superimposing them, then
switching between the two will show the level of mismatch (at above
magnification).

However, and depending on usage, such level of accuracy may not be
important so in some cases this softening may be acceptable.

Don.
 
D

Don

....
It should be noted that there are scanners that have hardware support to
produce multiscans without blurring the images. Some can multi-sample
each pixel without moving the stepping motor, and some can keep the
stepping motor's registration unchanged between passes.

Yes, multi-sampling each pixel without moving the stepper motor is
what I meant by single-pass multiscanning.

I doubt very much that consumer grade scanners are capable of keeping
the stepping motor's registration unchanged between passes, although
some seem better at it than others. I suppose it's theoretically
possible with a high quality stepper motor and supporting mechanism
but tolerances of "normal" scanners just aren't good enough IMO.

Of course, it all depends on one's requirements. Not everybody
examines images at 300% as I do... ;o)

Don.
 
D

Don

The LS20 seems to require a specific scsi card and its
only available in isa not pci buss. Not too many mother boards around
anymore that support eisa.

I ran my LS30 (also a SCSI scanner) off my notebook using a PCMCIA
card and it worked like a charm.

The card's model number is: Adaptec's SlimSCSI 1460B.

So, if you have a notebook or a PCMCIA adapter for the desktop that
may be another option.

Don.
 
J

J M Widome

LJB said:
Jan, do you by any chance know if Windows XP sp2 supports the AIC 7850?
Searching the news groups leaves me doubting that it does.

thanks
It's in my machine running now - and I do have Sp2.
I'll check this again and email if I am wrong.

Jan
 
J

J M Widome

LJB said:
Jan, do you by any chance know if Windows XP sp2 supports the AIC 7850?
Searching the news groups leaves me doubting that it does.

thanks
I'm glad you asked. I seemed to recall that I put a 2906 in the
machine, but when I queried it, the 7850 came up.

I just opened the box and, sure enough, the SCSI card is a 2906 PCI.

My apologies if I caused you any inconvenience here. Maybe XP loaded
some 7850 drivers which might have been compatible.

Regardless, the 2906 and the Coolscan II do work with SP2.


Regards,

Jan
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Both my Polaroid SS4000 and Minolta 5400 move the film carriers over the
scan heads and light sources. Are the Nikon LS5000, Canon ??? etc.
different?

Yes - the film is kept stationary once in the correct frame position and
the scanner head and the illumination source move across the surface of
the film during the scan. I don't know about the Polaroid, but I
thought the Minolta did something similar, although it is a while since
I used one and since I wasn't looking for this specifically I can't be
sure.
 

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