Multi-Boot Question...

[frodo]

Is it possible to install a 2nd HD, install XP on that, and then have the
1st HD's boot menu offer the choice of booting its copy of XP, OR the copy
on the 2nd HD? [not a second partition on the same HD]. I imagine editing
of boot.ini by hand would be necessary.

Basically, I want a second HD for the KID'S setup, but don't want to use
the BIOS to switch between the two, just use the boot menu. Can NTLDR
handle that?

 

[John Barnett MVP]

Install the second hard drive and make sure it is recognised by the BIOS and
you can see it in Windows XP. Next insert your copy of XP into the cd-rom
and reboot. The xp start up application will begin. You will need to select
a 'new' installation because the setup will automatically find your other
installation on drive 1. When asked where you want to install xp select
drive 2 (you will need to create a partition on the second drive for xp to
install on - again you can do this from xp). Once the 'new' copy of xp has
been installed and you have rebooted your pc you should get a menu asking
you which copy of xp you want to boot from.
If you visit my website http://xphelpandsupport.mvps.org click the Win XP
Faq button and take a look at questions 41 and 85.

 

[Lil' Dave]

Can tell you what I did when the nest was still full, and worried about my
PC stuff being contaminated or eradicated by kid's usage.

You'll need the following:
An add-on ide card with its own bios, no raid card, Promise.com offers.
A removable hard drive tray.
A hard drive.
An empty 5.25" bay in the PC.
PC must be able to boot from SCSI.
Available irq 10, 11, or 15. Or, at least, the PC's ability to share this
with the ide card if already used.

You'll need to do the following:
Install the card
Install the drive into the tray.
Install the tray's holder in the PC.
Install the tray's holder ribbon cable to the card.
Disable the primary controller. Disable the onboard ide master and slave
primaries. (You don't want to see any other windows installation).
Set the PC to boot from SCSI in the bios settings.
Install XP, and the card's windows drivers etc.

When done:
Turn off the PC.
Remove the drive, mounted in the removable tray and keys.
Change the bios setting back to recognizing the onboard primary master and
slave.
Place the tray and keys in a location out of curious hands.

If the PC bites the dust, move the card, the tray and tray holder to a new
PC. Setup the bios the same way. Do a repair install of XP if needed. You
may need a new key from MS if this happens. Just follow directions provided
during the reboot after the repair install. This may happen on your current
PC as well.

Even though there are ways of multi-booting onboard multiple hard drives, I
like this way for ability to physically remove the hard drive from the
system when I'm not using it. This has multiple benefits.

This will not work on PCs with their own exclusive installation procedures
looking for the onboard primary, master hard drive. Typically, a retail XP
install Cd will work. Or, the OEM type purchased with hardware. OEMs XP
installs, like Compaq or HP, are unlikely candidates.

 

[Anna]

Is it possible to install a 2nd HD, install XP on that, and then have the
1st HD's boot menu offer the choice of booting its copy of XP, OR the
copy
on the 2nd HD? [not a second partition on the same HD]. I imagine
editing
of boot.ini by hand would be necessary.

Basically, I want a second HD for the KID'S setup, but don't want to use
the BIOS to switch between the two, just use the boot menu. Can NTLDR
handle that?

Can tell you what I did when the nest was still full, and worried about my
PC stuff being contaminated or eradicated by kid's usage.

You'll need the following:
An add-on ide card with its own bios, no raid card, Promise.com offers.
A removable hard drive tray.
A hard drive.
An empty 5.25" bay in the PC.
PC must be able to boot from SCSI.
Available irq 10, 11, or 15. Or, at least, the PC's ability to share this
with the ide card if already used.

You'll need to do the following:
Install the card
Install the drive into the tray.
Install the tray's holder in the PC.
Install the tray's holder ribbon cable to the card.
Disable the primary controller. Disable the onboard ide master and slave
primaries. (You don't want to see any other windows installation).
Set the PC to boot from SCSI in the bios settings.
Install XP, and the card's windows drivers etc.

When done:
Turn off the PC.
Remove the drive, mounted in the removable tray and keys.
Change the bios setting back to recognizing the onboard primary master and
slave.
Place the tray and keys in a location out of curious hands.

If the PC bites the dust, move the card, the tray and tray holder to a new
PC. Setup the bios the same way. Do a repair install of XP if needed.
You
may need a new key from MS if this happens. Just follow directions
provided
during the reboot after the repair install. This may happen on your
current
PC as well.

Even though there are ways of multi-booting onboard multiple hard drives,
I
like this way for ability to physically remove the hard drive from the
system when I'm not using it. This has multiple benefits.

This will not work on PCs with their own exclusive installation procedures
looking for the onboard primary, master hard drive. Typically, a retail
XP
install Cd will work. Or, the OEM type purchased with hardware. OEMs XP
installs, like Compaq or HP, are unlikely candidates.

frodo:
Li'l Dave's basic recommendation about installing a removable hard drive as
your second internal HD is a good one but I fear he complicates the process
somewhat. So here's another view...

First of all, you will *not* need an "add-on ide card with its own bios".
And you will *not* need a "PC (that) must be able to boot from SCSI."
And you need *not* be concerned with IRQs.

What you will need (as Li'l Dave points out) is an available 5 1/4" bay in
your computer case to house the mobile rack containing the second HD. That's
it.

The beauty of this arrangement is now you can easily have a dedicated HD for
the exclusive use of your children. A simple turn of the keylock and that
second drive becomes the bootable drive. No need to go into the BIOS; no
need to use a boot manager. The process is simplicity itself. And your
primary HD remains isolated within the system.

And there are other *enormous* advantages to installing a removable (second)
HD in your computer. The mobile rack is actually a two-part affair with the
rack itself permanently (more-or-less) affixed to the computer's case. The
HD it contains is housed in a removable tray that slides in & out of the
rack. You can purchase as many additional trays as you desire to house as
many HDs as you desire. Do you see the enormous positive implications of all
this? Now you have a virtual unlimited source of HDs at your disposal for
any purpose you desire. You can, for instance, use one of them for backup
purposes. Using a disk imaging program such as Norton Ghost or Acronis True
Image, you can simply clone the contents of your day-to-day working HD to
one of the removable HDs. What better backup system can one have? And your
accomplishing all this from outside your computer case.

If you think this type of system holds any appeal for you and you want more
details re its installation, please so indicate.
Anna

 

[Rick \Nutcase\ Rogers]

Hi,

Is it possible to install a 2nd HD, install XP on that, and then have the
1st HD's boot menu offer the choice of booting its copy of XP, OR the copy
on the 2nd HD? [not a second partition on the same HD]. I imagine editing
of boot.ini by hand would be necessary.

Yes. Install the drive, then boot with the WinXP CD and run setup. Agree to
the license (hit F8) and at the installation location point choose the new
drive. You will be prompted to create a partition and format it (quick NTFS
is usually sufficient). Setup will install to the new location, and will
create the dual boot for you (no editing necessary).

Basically, I want a second HD for the KID'S setup, but don't want to use
the BIOS to switch between the two, just use the boot menu. Can NTLDR
handle that?

Yep, it can. But why not just give them limited user accounts?

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone

Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

 

[Lil' Dave]

Is it possible to install a 2nd HD, install XP on that, and then have the
1st HD's boot menu offer the choice of booting its copy of XP, OR the
copy
on the 2nd HD? [not a second partition on the same HD]. I imagine
editing
of boot.ini by hand would be necessary.

Basically, I want a second HD for the KID'S setup, but don't want to use
the BIOS to switch between the two, just use the boot menu. Can NTLDR
handle that?

Can tell you what I did when the nest was still full, and worried about my
PC stuff being contaminated or eradicated by kid's usage.

You'll need the following:
An add-on ide card with its own bios, no raid card, Promise.com offers.
A removable hard drive tray.
A hard drive.
An empty 5.25" bay in the PC.
PC must be able to boot from SCSI.
Available irq 10, 11, or 15. Or, at least, the PC's ability to share this
with the ide card if already used.

You'll need to do the following:
Install the card
Install the drive into the tray.
Install the tray's holder in the PC.
Install the tray's holder ribbon cable to the card.
Disable the primary controller. Disable the onboard ide master and slave
primaries. (You don't want to see any other windows installation).
Set the PC to boot from SCSI in the bios settings.
Install XP, and the card's windows drivers etc.

When done:
Turn off the PC.
Remove the drive, mounted in the removable tray and keys.
Change the bios setting back to recognizing the onboard primary master and
slave.
Place the tray and keys in a location out of curious hands.

If the PC bites the dust, move the card, the tray and tray holder to a new
PC. Setup the bios the same way. Do a repair install of XP if needed.
You
may need a new key from MS if this happens. Just follow directions
provided
during the reboot after the repair install. This may happen on your
current
PC as well.

Even though there are ways of multi-booting onboard multiple hard drives,
I
like this way for ability to physically remove the hard drive from the
system when I'm not using it. This has multiple benefits.

This will not work on PCs with their own exclusive installation procedures
looking for the onboard primary, master hard drive. Typically, a retail
XP
install Cd will work. Or, the OEM type purchased with hardware. OEMs XP
installs, like Compaq or HP, are unlikely candidates.

frodo:
Li'l Dave's basic recommendation about installing a removable hard drive as
your second internal HD is a good one but I fear he complicates the process
somewhat. So here's another view...

First of all, you will *not* need an "add-on ide card with its own bios".
And you will *not* need a "PC (that) must be able to boot from SCSI."
And you need *not* be concerned with IRQs.

What you will need (as Li'l Dave points out) is an available 5 1/4" bay in
your computer case to house the mobile rack containing the second HD. That's
it.

The beauty of this arrangement is now you can easily have a dedicated HD for
the exclusive use of your children. A simple turn of the keylock and that
second drive becomes the bootable drive. No need to go into the BIOS; no
need to use a boot manager. The process is simplicity itself. And your
primary HD remains isolated within the system.

And there are other *enormous* advantages to installing a removable (second)
HD in your computer. The mobile rack is actually a two-part affair with the
rack itself permanently (more-or-less) affixed to the computer's case. The
HD it contains is housed in a removable tray that slides in & out of the
rack. You can purchase as many additional trays as you desire to house as
many HDs as you desire. Do you see the enormous positive implications of all
this? Now you have a virtual unlimited source of HDs at your disposal for
any purpose you desire. You can, for instance, use one of them for backup
purposes. Using a disk imaging program such as Norton Ghost or Acronis True
Image, you can simply clone the contents of your day-to-day working HD to
one of the removable HDs. What better backup system can one have? And your
accomplishing all this from outside your computer case.

If you think this type of system holds any appeal for you and you want more
details re its installation, please so indicate.
Anna

You are correct in your description.
As you also describe, since the childeren have left the nest, I now use the
removable for a cloned drive, and another hard drive as an image target for
further backup safety. In this case, I don't disable the onboard primary
ide devices or the controller. The onboard primary master is the boot hard
drive.

I do disagree with leaving the removable hard drive in its bay in either
case. The electronics are still connected to the interface card on the
removable holder for the tray. If the PC decides to bite the dust, it may
take the still inserted hard drive in the tray with it. Thus defeating one
of the primary purposes of a removable hard drive. Yes, I use an UPS.

I recommend an add-on ide card as when the PC may fail and a replacement PC
is required. Since the bios isn't going to change for the CHS and landing
zone for the hard drive connected to the card, there isn't a recognition
problem by the new PC. Motherboard swaps can result in same. Those that
have attempted moving a hard drive connected to the onboard ide connector
from one make PC to another, or a motherboard swap with a different bios
understand my meaning. The hard drive's data may not be translated
correctly because of the different bios. Then, all your data is there, but
not translated correctly, no OS, all your personal data is inaccessible.

The add-on ide card is used for additional insurance for recovery as well in
the event of PC or motherboard failure. The worst that could happen is the
ide card bites the dust at the same time as the PC, these are inexpensive to
replace. Just stick with the same brand name so the ide card's bios CHS and
landing zone won't change.

 

[Anna]

Is it possible to install a 2nd HD, install XP on that, and then have the 1st HD's boot menu offer the choice of booting its copy of XP, OR the
copy on the 2nd HD? [not a second partition on the same HD]. I
imagine
editing of boot.ini by hand would be necessary.

Basically, I want a second HD for the KID'S setup, but don't want to use the BIOS to switch between the two, just use the boot menu. Can NTLDR
handle that?

frodo:
Li'l Dave's basic recommendation about installing a removable hard drive
as your second internal HD is a good one but I fear he complicates the
process somewhat. So here's another view...

First of all, you will *not* need an "add-on ide card with its own bios".
And you will *not* need a "PC (that) must be able to boot from SCSI."
And you need *not* be concerned with IRQs.
What you will need (as Li'l Dave points out) is an available 5 1/4" bay
in
your computer case to house the mobile rack containing the second HD.
That's it.

The beauty of this arrangement is now you can easily have a dedicated HD
for the exclusive use of your children. A simple turn of the keylock and
that
second drive becomes the bootable drive. No need to go into the BIOS; no
need to use a boot manager. The process is simplicity itself. And your
primary HD remains isolated within the system.

And there are other *enormous* advantages to installing a removable
(second) HD in your computer. The mobile rack is actually a two-part
affair with
the rack itself permanently (more-or-less) affixed to the computer's
case. The
HD it contains is housed in a removable tray that slides in & out of the
rack. You can purchase as many additional trays as you desire to house as
many HDs as you desire. Do you see the enormous positive implications of
all this? Now you have a virtual unlimited source of HDs at your disposal
for
any purpose you desire. You can, for instance, use one of them for backup
purposes. Using a disk imaging program such as Norton Ghost or Acronis
True Image, you can simply clone the contents of your day-to-day working
HD to
one of the removable HDs. What better backup system can one have? And
your
accomplishing all this from outside your computer case.

If you think this type of system holds any appeal for you and you want
more details re its installation, please so indicate.
Anna

You are correct in your description.
As you also describe, since the childeren have left the nest, I now use
the
removable for a cloned drive, and another hard drive as an image target
for
further backup safety. In this case, I don't disable the onboard primary
ide devices or the controller. The onboard primary master is the boot
hard
drive.

I do disagree with leaving the removable hard drive in its bay in either
case. The electronics are still connected to the interface card on the
removable holder for the tray. If the PC decides to bite the dust, it may
take the still inserted hard drive in the tray with it. Thus defeating
one
of the primary purposes of a removable hard drive. Yes, I use an UPS.

I recommend an add-on ide card as when the PC may fail and a replacement
PC
is required. Since the bios isn't going to change for the CHS and landing
zone for the hard drive connected to the card, there isn't a recognition
problem by the new PC. Motherboard swaps can result in same. Those that
have attempted moving a hard drive connected to the onboard ide connector
from one make PC to another, or a motherboard swap with a different bios
understand my meaning. The hard drive's data may not be translated
correctly because of the different bios. Then, all your data is there,
but
not translated correctly, no OS, all your personal data is inaccessible.

The add-on ide card is used for additional insurance for recovery as well
in
the event of PC or motherboard failure. The worst that could happen is
the
ide card bites the dust at the same time as the PC, these are inexpensive
to
replace. Just stick with the same brand name so the ide card's bios CHS
and
landing zone won't change.

Dave:
As I'm sure you're aware of this since you work with removable hard
drives...

When the removable hard drive in its mobile rack is *not* in use -- it's a
simple matter to turn its keylock to the OFF position and then for further
safety's sake give a slight pull on the handle of the removable tray (caddy)
so that the HD is *physically and electrically disconnected* from the
computer. No more difficult than slightly cracking open a small desk drawer.
And an added advantage is that the tray or caddy containing the HD can
easily be removed from the premises if so desired.

I honestly see no need for any "add-on" cards for additional safety and/or
convenience. When the time comes that a new HD is necessary to replace the
one residing in the mobile rack, it's a simple matter for the user to slide
out the tray (caddy) from the mobile rack, remove the drive from the tray,
plop in the new drive and reconnect. And do all this from the comfort of his
or her computer chair. No need to get into the "guts" of the computer; no
need to make complicated connects/disconnects/component changes, etc. A
simple operation taking less than five minutes in most cases.

And this just *begins* to enumerate the advantages of a removable HD
configuration. With the new HD in place, the user simply "clones" his/her
internal working HD to the new one using a disk imaging program such as
Symantec's Norton Ghost or Acronis True Image. No need to partition or
format the new drive; no need to install the operating system; no need to
install programs and data files. All this is taken care of in one fell swoop
by the cloning operation.

For a large number of personal computer users, equipping their desktop
computer(s) with removable hard drives (preferably two) holds enormous
advantages. Based on my experience with helping hundreds of home & business
users install removable HDs in their desktop computers, I can virtually
guarantee that once a user works with this hardware arrangement, his or her
*only* regret is that they didn't have this type of arrangement in their
current or previous computer(s). It's that good.
Anna

 

[frodo]

Thanks to all, I get it!

I guess my "technical hurdle" (sometimes knowing a little can be
dangerous), is (was) this:

How does the XP Setup, when booted-to from the CD, know which HDisk the
bios it going to boot to, in order to know which boot.ini it needs to
modify? I gather that it simply "assumes" HDisk 0. In 99% of the cases
that would be a valid assumption, I guess. But you know what they say
about assuming something...

BTW, my system boots to a Raid 0 on SATA 1+2, which logically maps-in as
IDE3M, and is therefore HDisk 1. Oooops. [The Zip on IDE1M is HDisk 0;
1S is spare, and IDE2M and S both hold opticals]. I would fill 1S w/ the
second HD in this case. It would therefore be designated HDisk 2 [rule:
ide masters, in order, followed by ide slaves].

I could of course move the Zip to 1S, put the new HD into 1M, and then...

Oy, my brain hurts!

Anyway...

-----

The book I checked (XP Inside Out, "the bible"), said I needed to run XP
Setup FROM MY CURRENT WINDOWS (ie, run it, don't boot to it) in order for
it to work. That made sense, since it would then know (or assume,
depending on your viewpoint!) to mod the exisiting boot.ini.

Thanks again, I think I need a wiff of Old Toby now...

 

[youllneverguess]

It's kept in boot.ini on the parent's drive. It is super-hidden, you can't
see it if you view hidden files.