MSDE is a COMPLETE MARKETING FAILURE as ZERO PEOPLE USE IT for anything, even development.

[William Ryan]

Read ANY OF MICHAEL LANG's <you taught me this is cool, everyone else,
please forgive> post on the ADO.NET NG about generic providers. Heck, head
over to his shareware site and download his stuff. It's free and it can get
you over your terrible hurdle.

 

[Guest]

I cater to the entrepreneur market that ends up with web sites like eBay and
Yahoo.

I cater to the "MASSES".

Ever hear of "Sell to the masses".......do you know what that means?

That's how the PC got started.....Ever hear of the Personal Computer that
can run a small doctor's office, or small lawfirm...., they don't need
mainframes.

Ever hear of Wal-Mart? Do you know how they got started?


I will ignore your web site, www.infoprogroup.com, for now......

 

[William Ryan]

Please, Please knock me down. You've proven your understanding of markets
too well .... and it isn't much.

No one ever ever forces you to buy software, at least in the USA. If so,
there's a legal provision called coercion, which invalidates contracts. If
any of your mom and pop welfare agencies can prove a MS rep put a gun up to
there head, please let me know, I'll file the request for them.

Regarding my Porsche, let me use my Jaguar as an example....

It breaks down all the time but I look cool in it.

It leaks oil and everything else all the time <Why don't they make Computers
in England? B/C they can't figure out how to make them leak oil----No
offense to the English--We have plenty wrong with us over here> There are
like six qualified mechanics where I live, and they are never open when you
need them.

I can't get a reimbursement for a tow or time lost when the water pump
breaks or my other ailment du jour.

I can't charge my Mom and Pop clients enough to buy an XK..and everyone
knows if you buy a jag, you need two of them so you have one for when the
other is in the shop.

My Jaguar dealership never promised me it wouldn't break down, they don't
even pretend like it won't. But they will tell you that you'll look cool in
one.

I wish I could not have to buy a new one every year. Well, actually I
don't, every two years. Those darned leasing companies!


Oh, If I could only turn my XJ6 for an XK. If anyone at Jaguar is
listening...I'm one of your most loyal customers....Please Please Please let
me do an even trade for my 2001 XJ6 and get a 2003 XK.

Can I ever get my Jag fixed during the week? Not where I live, even though
they want to, too many people ahead of me.

No, no software can ever be as fun as Jag convertible. Yukon will come
close. C# has done a great job. But for pure fun....even with my three
letter postfix (MBA), nothing can compete with a Jag software wise.

Satisfied customer...yes, William Ryan (e-mail address removed) Loves Loves
Loves SQL Server and C# and Jags. The first two will help me buy a 911 soon
enough, and don't even get me started on Watches.

Please Mr. I Sell Software to the Welfare Agency B/C They like it software
genius....please, put me in my place.

BTW, please also explain the markets to me. I'd love to understand your
theory on Monetary Velocity and its effects on inflation or the Econometric
Quantification of Capital Gains Tax Manipulation (I wrote my Master's thesis
on the latter, and I'd love your opinions on it since you can teach me a
thing or two about both software and economics.)

Please cc me at (e-mail address removed) I'd love to share this with my
co-workers who make fun of my jag every day.

Cheers,

Bill

 

[William Ryan]

Which software conference, you let this one slip by...Liar

 

[William Ryan]

Is it really? That's cool. I always liked my Jag, but comparing it to an
Oracle DB. A little about myself. I was a actuary by profession, hard core
nerd. Learned ORacle from there, on Solaris. Grew into a Java Programmer.
Then, when I hated MS, I got a job where they didn't care about my 3:33t
Oracle sk1llz. So I learned SQL Server. Gained tons of respect for it.

I do cater to 1% of the market. As a matter of fact, the Department of
Defense will vouche for this, I am the lead developer on one of the most
widely used Pocket PC/SqlServer CE apps marketed right now. A product that
generates nothing under 35k on a minimal install................and we have
more demand than supply at the moment.

It rocks, and in January, that 911 is mine, hopefully, BC I SPEND MY TIME
WRITING CODE, KEEPING IT REAL, and making stuff happen instead of whining.

Let me know what marekt you cater to... I would like to relieve you of the
the pressure of accomodating it. If you would only post a real name, then
we could see your web site.....here's mine.... www.infoprogroup.com
............let's see yours..... Four more mom and pops and that Porsche is
mine! Mwuahhahahaha

 

[William Ryan]

Yes, and you are the reason they
succeeded....................................Phony!

 

[William Ryan]

Heard of all of the above, and I HEREBY CHALLENGE YOU to prove what you say.
EBAY, show us the link where they vouch for you!.....

 

[Guest]

uhhhhh.........*LIKE* eBay and Yahoo.....

Read closely....is says "LIKE"............

 

[Tony Rogerson]

Check out http://www.microsoft.com/sql/msde/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp

You are completely wrong where you say MSDE cannot be used in a
production environment.

The URL's you've posted refer to SQL Server and not MSDE.

----------------
It states on the URL above that MSDE can be downloaded and used as
part of ASP.NET Web Matrix (used to develop your .NET website) and can
be used in production.

----------------
MSDE is SQL Server at the end of the day, just with some throttling to
control scalability. Once you need to move up because of number of
concurrent users/size of database you can very easily (no porting
required) move to SQL Server standard.

Tony Rogerson
SQL Server MVP

 

[Tor K. Haugen]

Daniel is right. You are funny.

Don't be so stupid and arrogant Daniel....you are more than welcome to join
the other thread and be humiliated and proven wrong on every point just the
other poster. There is still a challenge out there to compare system of
2-tier versus n-Tier..... there is also no R.O.I. either....

Like I said....don't be stupid and arrogant.

 

[Tom Hall]

In spite of myself I'm posting this....

Thanks Tony for verifying my take on MSDE.

Nospam, no I didn't read your url as its about SQL server and not MSDE!

You might want to try the MSDE FAQ that I spoon-fed you and find out you can
indeed use MSDE in production as reiterated by Tony Rogerson (SQL Server
MVP)

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/msde/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp

Since your argument just fell about apart, how about that apology

I'm not using the AS/400, I'm using PCs. The AS/400 is the primary server
for the Shopfloor apps. My system is a "Disaster Backup System" for a small
but very critical part of that system.
It does not connect to the AS/400 - which would be kind of pointless as it
HAS to run independently.

You are putting the cart before the horse - an AS/400 should be in the
startup's vocabulary if the application demands it. A low end one can be
had for about $10,000.

Its all about applications. Not everything is Internet/.COM related.
Thinking (like you) that it is and nothing else matters is extremely
short-sighted.

Startup != .COM

Try thinking outside your little box.

Would the company I work for use PC servers running MySQL for their
financials - not a chance. Its AS/400 all the way (which just happens to
cost $$$) but the thing we're buying with that money is uptime.

When was the last time your PC crashed (running Windows or Linux - doesn't
matter). When was the last time our AS/400 crashed - how about NEVER, 8
years and 2 hardware platform changes later and IT DOESN'T CRASH - PERIOD.

You said "NO ONE USES IT" - meaning MSDE.

I use it - therefore you ARE WRONG (and CLUELESS - your words).

The only thing STUPID about me is trying to reason with a zealot - YOU!

I should have known better, anyone with any experience knows you are "full
of it".

Its like a religious war with you - they are called that for a reason, blind
faith to your "position" - there is no reasoning with the people involved.

I believe in the right tool for the job, MySQL, PHP, Oracle, SQL Server,
PCs. XP, AS/400, Access, Java, C++, C#, Delphi, VB, Assembler, 2-tier,
3-tier - all have their place in the world - just not in your narrow view of
the world.

I have programmed to some degree over the last 20 years using most of
these - can you say the same? I actually considered using MySQL for this
job but why should I when MSDE is free and SQL compatible.

For the record, I have never worked for a .COM company! Not that I wouldn't
but I understand the fact you can't make money without sales - unless you're
the one dumping the stock before it plummets!

By the way, what started all this ranting by you, did you buy into the
"stock options and low pay" myth at some .COM and get shafted

Or, perhaps since you cling to old methods (see your n-tier rant on another
post) were you passed over for promotion since you "just don't get it".
Being stuck maintaining someone else's mess tends to make one bitter!

Unlike you, I believe in the using the right tool (just in case you missed
it above), whether that's 3-tier, 2-tier or NO TIER working off a floppy
disk in DOS!

Why do you remain anonymous? Are you afraid? Paranoid?

Are you afraid the Microsoft Marketing Reps will come to your house and try
to beat some sense into you?

They don't do that.....anymore!

I look forward to your next unreasoned rant - its quite entertaining!

Hope the medication starts working soon.
Tom

 

[Guinness Mann]

Obviously your are clueless to think that the typical startup or MOM and POP
needs all that SQL Server can offer.

Obviously they must, or you wouldn't be here ranting, would you? If you
think that PHP and MySQL will serve your purposes, more power to you.
Personally, I looked at MySQL and I have to agree with another poster
here -- it's a toy database.

-- Rick

 

[Guest]

Pay attention to the thread.....

MSDE need to be clearly explained to the non-user entrepreneur who writes
the checks....

Web development in general, THAT MEANS YOU, is being given a black EYE on
each MS Access to SQL Server port as that's TOTALLY NOT necessary in the
first place when all Microsoft has to do is ADJUST the licensing and
marketing of MSDE.....

Duhhhhhh.....

 

[Guest]

You are a glutton for punishment...ok....learn the hard way.....

COMMENTS INLINE....BELOW

In spite of myself I'm posting this....
Since your argument just fell about apart, how about that apology

I'm not using the AS/400, I'm using PCs. The AS/400 is the primary server
for the Shopfloor apps. My system is a "Disaster Backup System" for a small
but very critical part of that system.
It does not connect to the AS/400 - which would be kind of pointless as it
HAS to run independently.

You are putting the cart before the horse - an AS/400 should be in the
startup's vocabulary if the application demands it. A low end one can be
had for about $10,000.

Its all about applications. Not everything is Internet/.COM related.
Thinking (like you) that it is and nothing else matters is extremely
short-sighted.

Startup != .COM

True startup at least get's a .COM just to have E-Mail......DUHHHHHH!!!!

Next thing you will say is that a startup doesn't even need a telephone, and
then after that, you will probably say they don't need to make money....

Try thinking outside your little box.

My little box!!! How about your GLASS house on the top of the mountain with
that Porsche911 that you can't even drive around?

Would the company I work for use PC servers running MySQL for their
financials - not a chance. Its AS/400 all the way (which just happens to
cost $$$) but the thing we're buying with that money is uptime.

When was the last time your PC crashed (running Windows or Linux - doesn't
matter). When was the last time our AS/400 crashed - how about NEVER, 8
years and 2 hardware platform changes later and IT DOESN'T CRASH - PERIOD.

You said "NO ONE USES IT" - meaning MSDE.

People who live in Glass towers on the top of the mountain don't count
because they never come down from it.
So we never knew you existed.

I use it - therefore you ARE WRONG (and CLUELESS - your words).

The only thing STUPID about me is trying to reason with a zealot - YOU!

I should have known better, anyone with any experience knows you are "full
of it".

Its like a religious war with you - they are called that for a reason, blind
faith to your "position" - there is no reasoning with the people involved.

I believe in the right tool for the job, MySQL, PHP, Oracle, SQL Server,
PCs. XP, AS/400, Access, Java, C++, C#, Delphi, VB, Assembler, 2-tier,
3-tier - all have their place in the world - just not in your narrow view of
the world.

Narrow? Porsche911 and Jags..... AS/400

You are getting off topic.

I have programmed to some degree over the last 20 years using most of
these - can you say the same? I actually considered using MySQL for this
job but why should I when MSDE is free and SQL compatible.

For the record, I have never worked for a .COM company! Not that I wouldn't
but I understand the fact you can't make money without sales - unless you're
the one dumping the stock before it plummets!

By the way, what started all this ranting by you, did you buy into the
"stock options and low pay" myth at some .COM and get shafted

Or, perhaps since you cling to old methods (see your n-tier rant on another
post) were you passed over for promotion since you "just don't get it".
Being stuck maintaining someone else's mess tends to make one bitter!

Unlike you, I believe in the using the right tool (just in case you missed
it above), whether that's 3-tier, 2-tier or NO TIER working off a floppy
disk in DOS!

Careful ......first read that n-Tier/ 2-Tier thread.......
Notice that I provided many URL'S back up my numbers and arguments.

Why do you remain anonymous? Are you afraid? Paranoid?

Ah, here we go again......attack the poster's background instead of the
arguments...

 

[Guest]

COMMENT INLINE BELOW...

I'm just hoping to convert you to the dark side, us glass tower dwelling
folks are like that

Perhaps working for a Fortune 150 gives me a different perspective than
you - that tower is mighty high, but just think, I STILL use MSDE for small
projects BECAUSE ITS FREE! I could use MySQL but why should I - both are
free, and MSDE is compatible with the other full Microsoft SQL databases in
case I need to scale up or consolidate servers.

The company can spend literally millions of dollars on a project if it
requires that kind of outlay BUT, when it doesn't justify it - such as my
little project, MSDE is called for - nothing to get approved as there is
nothing to buy! Hand me down desktops with XP and MSDE. The high end
thermal label printers (Zebra 170xiII) cost more than the software and PCs
put together ($8,000 each). BUT, they are friggin tanks (24x7 operation)
and worth every penny.

You might be surprised just how difficult it is to get a small project
approved that requires say $50,000 worth of stuff. (Try 2 years to replace
a few aging servers) The multi-million dollars deals are a piece of cake in
comparison.

Attacking the poster, that's all you do! Would you like a list of words
YOU'VE used against other posters....

CLUELESS, DUHHHH!!!, STUPID, ARROGANT, ZEALOT, FANATIC,....

THESE were based on the ARGUMENTS and REPLIES presented...not on
background....

Initially Based on the "present" not "past"...and then the past.

Nevertheless, VERY VERY TRUE and ACCURATE DESCRIPTIONS based on the replies.
And you know it.

Now, if it were the other way around, it would be distorted, misleading,
taken out of context....

I was just following your lead - in fact I didn't use any offensive words
that you hadn't already used.

.COM for your Email address doesn't require MSDE or MySQL last time I
checked.

yes, but the startup could use the .com in the e-mail.

I have refuted your interpretation of the licensing terms of MSDE multiple
times as have others - so give that one up!

*************************
LET's READ CLOSELY
*************************

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/msde/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp
Common Rules and Guidelines

"Using MSDE does not reduce or eliminate the need for client access licenses
(CALs) when interacting with SQL Server 2000 Standard Edition or SQL Server
2000 Enterprise Edition in a production environment.


MSDE cannot be used to create applications that substantially duplicate the
capabilities of Microsoft Access or, in the reasonable opinion of Microsoft,
compete with same. "


Another big point to be made is that HARDWARE has come down in cost
dramatically while offering GREAT value.....not so with SOFTWARE in
general....at least not commercial software......

I use MSDE as do others, so there goes your other argument...

I will agree that Microsoft could do a better job of marketing MSDE:

1. Make it easier to install - a command line installer, get real Microsoft.

2. Market it as the "free" SQL Server rather than some "other" product with
nebulous connections to SQL server and convoluted licensing (even if almost
everyone qualifies!). Just say I can use it rather than listing some pile
of other products I probably already have or could buy used off EBay to
qualify - like anyone is going to check.

It's doesn't only have to be "free", It has to be "affordable".

 

[Tom Hall]

I'm just hoping to convert you to the dark side, us glass tower dwelling
folks are like that

Perhaps working for a Fortune 150 gives me a different perspective than
you - that tower is mighty high, but just think, I STILL use MSDE for small
projects BECAUSE ITS FREE! I could use MySQL but why should I - both are
free, and MSDE is compatible with the other full Microsoft SQL databases in
case I need to scale up or consolidate servers.

The company can spend literally millions of dollars on a project if it
requires that kind of outlay BUT, when it doesn't justify it - such as my
little project, MSDE is called for - nothing to get approved as there is
nothing to buy! Hand me down desktops with XP and MSDE. The high end
thermal label printers (Zebra 170xiII) cost more than the software and PCs
put together ($8,000 each). BUT, they are friggin tanks (24x7 operation)
and worth every penny.

You might be surprised just how difficult it is to get a small project
approved that requires say $50,000 worth of stuff. (Try 2 years to replace
a few aging servers) The multi-million dollars deals are a piece of cake in
comparison.

Attacking the poster, that's all you do! Would you like a list of words
YOU'VE used against other posters....

CLUELESS, DUHHHH!!!, STUPID, ARROGANT, ZEALOT, FANATIC,....

I was just following your lead - in fact I didn't use any offensive words
that you hadn't already used.

..COM for your Email address doesn't require MSDE or MySQL last time I
checked.

I have refuted your interpretation of the licensing terms of MSDE multiple
times as have others - so give that one up!

I use MSDE as do others, so there goes your other argument...

I will agree that Microsoft could do a better job of marketing MSDE:

1. Make it easier to install - a command line installer, get real Microsoft.

2. Market it as the "free" SQL Server rather than some "other" product with
nebulous connections to SQL server and convoluted licensing (even if almost
everyone qualifies!). Just say I can use it rather than listing some pile
of other products I probably already have or could buy used off EBay to
qualify - like anyone is going to check.

3. Include the management tools.

These 3 points I will give you and you have my total support on them.

IF Microsoft did this it could allow them to blow MySQL out of the water and
set the stage for future sales when your mythical Mom and Pop operation
explodes in size.

With free SQL, and free ASP.NET on IIS, for the price of a desktop o/s (XP
for ~$200) you can blow Linux, MySQL, PHP and Apache out of the water!

Try turning down the flamethrower - you'll get more reasoned posts in
response.

Sincerely
Tom Hall
Glass Tower Developments (I like that, it has a ring to it - wonder if the
domain name is taken).

 

[David Vins]

Why don't you have an honest and real dialogue with a Microsoft program
manager on this subject? All you need do is spend some time and attend
either a major industry conference (not necessarily a Microsoft one) and
approach one of them to discuss.

Your concerns are legitimate given the needs of certain segments of the
market. However, going about this in such a way (and with such a concerted
chip on your shoulder) is not going to get you anywhere.

Last, before you start faulting Microsoft and it's licensing policies, I
would suggest you take a 'fair and balanced' look throughout the market
place. Microsoft is relatively inexpensive compared to Oracle, IBM, and
other database vendors. Moreover, SQL Server also provides some considerable
bang for the buck when you factor in its Analysis Services and English
Language Query. Two tools which are constantly overlooked by developers and
consultants when structuring solutions for their clients.

 

[David Vins]

Microsoft provides SQL Server as part of its generously (and inexpensively)
priced Microsoft Small Business Server 2000 and the forthcoming Microsoft
Windows Small Business Server 2003. Moreover, both of these products (and
SQL Server for that matter) can easily be purchased via multitude of
financing options available from major software distributors, resellers,
VARs, and Microsoft itself.

 

[David Vins]

NoSpam (curiously, why is it you hide behind an anonymous name); anyhow,
Microsoft does offer a Mom and Pop 'production' license, it's called
Microsoft Small Business Server 2000 or Microsoft Windows Small Business
Server 2003.

Also, by comparison, research from very reputable organizations such as AMI
Research shows that small business consistently UNDER INVEST in information
technologies. Even the segment that is considered the most 'cutting edge' by
research standards spend less than 1% of revenue on IT. That stands in stark
comparison to the rest of the marketplace which typically spends anywhere
from 2-15% of revenues on IT (varies by industry). And that accounts for the
economies of scale they reap too!

 

[Tom Hall]

My comments to your comments again...

THESE were based on the ARGUMENTS and REPLIES presented...not on
background....

Initially Based on the "present" not "past"...and then the past.

Nevertheless, VERY VERY TRUE and ACCURATE DESCRIPTIONS based on the replies.
And you know it.

Now, if it were the other way around, it would be distorted, misleading,
taken out of context....

Really...that's not how it reads to me or the people you've flamed. Appears
to me that those words were directed at the posters, not their arguments.

yes, but the startup could use the .com in the e-mail.

Which once again means nothing, has nothing to do with MySQL or MSDE. What
if I use .CA or .NET - do I need MySQL for that?

*************************
LET's READ CLOSELY
*************************

http://www.microsoft.com/sql/msde/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp
Common Rules and Guidelines

"Using MSDE does not reduce or eliminate the need for client access licenses
(CALs) when interacting with SQL Server 2000 Standard Edition or SQL Server
2000 Enterprise Edition in a production environment.

Once again, you miss the point. No one mentioned using MSDE WITH SQL
Server - I'm using it INSTEAD of SQL Server, so this part does not apply to
me.

MSDE cannot be used to create applications that substantially duplicate the
capabilities of Microsoft Access or, in the reasonable opinion of Microsoft,
compete with same. "

I take this to mean you can't put a generic front end on MSDE that does
scripting, forms design, data import/export and reporting and sell it -
which would be what Access does. This isn't too limiting for most people.

Another big point to be made is that HARDWARE has come down in cost
dramatically while offering GREAT value.....not so with SOFTWARE in
general....at least not commercial software......

Your point would be that it should be cheap?
Why? You charge what the market will bear - that's what business is about -
making money. So many people seem to lose sight of this. Everyone gets
upset that banks charge all those fees....buy the stock, then you'll get a
cut of those profits! Same with Microsoft.

You ought to try the mainframe software route if you think PC software is
expensive. Not only is it extremely expensive but its typically licensed to
the serial # of the machine and cpu level (in the case of AS/400 which I
have experience with). You have to give over this information BEFORE they
sell it to you so it is LOCKED to the machine literally.

Comparision for your edification:

Loftware Label print software for my PC-based Disaster system previously
posted about: $700.
TL Ashford Label Print software for the AS/400: $26,000 (IIRC)

The Loftware does a better job and is easier to use! Is the TL Ashford
worth almost 40 times as much - NO, do I have a choice - NO (other than not
using it and using some other equally expensive package)

Consider yourself lucky to be only living in the PC world.

Here again, they charge what the market will bear, and they own the market
(little competition) but also few customers - how many people own a $120,000
piece of equipment to run it on. It would cost more than the $26,000 to
develop the system yourself - and the support is great - it had better be
for that $$$.

It's doesn't only have to be "free", It has to be "affordable".
Yes, but it is FREE.

Agreed, although free is nice, don't expect support but since it really is
SQL server, everything written about it applies anyway. I'd be willing to
pay a few $100 for it, rather than use MySQL which is not a full-featured
database currently as it lacks stored procedures - yes I know this is
coming.

Notice you didn't argue with this!