Money no object :-)

[GW De Lacey]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

 

[Philip Callan]

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GW De Lacey wrote:
| I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
| as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
| such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
| word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
| Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
| the future as possible is more important.
| So...
| If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
| a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

Get yourself a good case, I recommend Antec, since they give you a nice
PSU with their units.

Get yourself a good board, I recommend the P4C800-E, since its
compatible with both the P4 A/B/C but also the E and EE (prescott and
extreme edition)giving you an upgrade path later.

With multiple IDE and SATA ports, you give yourself another path, as IDE
devices begin to be phased out and SATA becomes the new standard.

Onboard Firewire for transfer of Digital video and stills (as well as 8
USB 2.0 ports)

i875P chipset, supporting Dual Channel DDR400 (max 2GB DDR400 while in
dual channel, if you need more than 1GB, you need to step down to DDR333
1GB x4) for perfect 1:1 ratio, memory bandwidth out the wazoo.....

Onboard AD1985 chipset for audio is comprable to a SB Live, really good
quality for an onboard device, SPDIF out.

And its got all the quirks of the P4C800 worked out and fixed some of
the shortcomings

my .02 cents
Philip
|
| --
| GW De Lacey

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[Andrew]

Get yourself a good board, I recommend the P4C800-E, since its
compatible with both the P4 A/B/C but also the E and EE (prescott and
extreme edition)giving you an upgrade path later.

I would have thought a 64bit Athlon system would be more appropriate
for relative future proofing.

 

[Philip Callan]

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Andrew wrote:

| On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:13:43 GMT, Philip Callan <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
|
|>Get yourself a good board, I recommend the P4C800-E, since its
|>compatible with both the P4 A/B/C but also the E and EE (prescott and
|>extreme edition)giving you an upgrade path later.
|
|
| I would have thought a 64bit Athlon system would be more appropriate
| for relative future proofing.

hahahahaha

I hope your kidding.
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[Andrew]

| I would have thought a 64bit Athlon system would be more appropriate
| for relative future proofing.

hahahahaha

I hope your kidding.

Sorry, call me old fashioned, but using a chip that is faster (in
32bit) and cheaper than Intel and has 64bit capability sounds like a
good idea to me.

 

[Tim]

Philip,

For all your knowledge, it does no one much good to hahhahah without an
explanation.

We can only guess as to your valued opinion.

To be frank, I would consider a Pentium 4 product to be rapidly approaching
its use by date - they will have been out in these specifications for around
a year with little or no change at the top end. That leaves 1 year and many
will be tossing them. Although perfectly good machines, it is hardly Now
technology, it is not New technology.

Basically, Intel has nothing to offer at the moment - the new Prescott CPU's
are expensive leg warmers. Given a choice between something that dissipates
over 100 watts and something that doesn't I would choose the latter. The
tables have really turned.

That leaves only AMD 64 Bit unfortunately.

- Tim

 

[Uncooked meat prior to state vector collapse]

Sorry, call me old fashioned, but using a chip that is faster (in
32bit) and cheaper than Intel and has 64bit capability sounds like a
good idea to me.

I built a system with a P4C800-E a few months ago. I was going all out in an
effort to future-proof as best as possible. I couldn't be happier with this
system. If I was building a PC today with the same purpose it would be an
AMD 64bit. However, If things really are changing across the board like we
expect (BTX, PCIX, etc...) then NO system is gonna future proof you right
now.

Just an opinion

 

[Philip Callan]

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Tim wrote:

| That leaves only AMD 64 Bit unfortunately.

Your never stuck with 'ONLY' any vendor/product, thats the wonders of
worldwide markets.

Intel will push 64bit when its NEEDED on the desktop, and is financially
in their interest, not just to satisfy those who want the edge.

Intel has been working with 64bit longer than AMD, and when they push a
64bit processor, it will (tada) most likely conform to Prescott
requirements, and be in a Socket478 package, to get the widest range of
customers.

Nevermind that Prescott doesnt see the advantages until it ramps up in
core speed.

For Future upgrade path, he would get FAR more years out of the
P4C800-E, with its upgrade path for prescott et al, its support for SATA
and IDE devices, redundant RAIDS, FireWire and USB2.0 for new devices
and gigabit networking that doesnt load the southbridge.

I've been working with computers a long time (pre 8088), and in that
time I have seen Intel year after year set the standard others cloned,
and set the mark for stability and longevity, lower power consumption
and less heat.

I've seen a AMD toast the plastic socket it was in, without being
overclocked.

The first line of the OP states:

| I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof

With 'money no object' in the subject, and 'SOLID' in the description,
thats Intel.

You never go cutting edge if stability is an objective, I'm sorry, this
counts for the desktop, and the server market.

Philip
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[rstlne]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

I would wait for these new pcix type motherboards to come out.. they might
be p5 or a64 later on (time will tell) but it's not far off and we'll see
them in the market for at least 2 or 3 years I think.. Probably best to go
for Sata or USB equipment too as all intel stuff will never have firewire,
and watch for the GigaPort's on the boards now too as that's in "now" just
not everywhere..

The truth is that you cant future proof at all in the pc industry..

 

[Stephan Grossklass]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

Sounds like a dual CPU box (Opteron maybe) would be worth a thought -
head over to 2cpu.com's forums to learn more. You will need an EPS12V
PSU (probably) and good ventilation (in any case, even for a single CPU
system). If single, maybe Athlon 64 FX.

In terms of memory, 1 gig certainly wouldn't be too much (CAD models can
consume hundreds of MiB), and concerning the hard drive setup, I'd
choose a 74 gig WD Raptor as system/app drive plus an ordinary 7200 rpm
drive in the 160..200 gig range for data storage (you could also buy a
250 gig one if you want, but that's something that can be upgraded
easily later).

Graphics card: One of Nvidia's or ATI's "pro" models (Quadro/FireGL)
would be worth considering (for CAD).

Monitor: Good 21" TFT (UXGA res.) ... or maybe two 18/19" models?

Ah yes, good input devices, very important. I like Logitech mice, even
the simple M-BJ69 OEM model works just fine for me. (But beware of their
keyboards.)
Good keyboards are hard to find new; personally, I use old IBM Model Ms
(these guys sell their modern equivalents, "Customizer" line with
"Buckling spring technology":
<http://store.yahoo.com/pckeyboards/keyboards.html>), the Cherry G80 is
not bad either; other people like Keytronic stuff, the old Northgate
Omnikey 101, the unconventional Happy Hacking Keyboard or the no less
unconventional ergonomic Kinesis keyboards. I've also seen an old
Chicony ('91 or so) that was great to type on and had an IBM-like feel
(and a newer model from ~'93 that was rather crappy and cheap). (A
number of older "clicky" keyboards from the late 80s apparently used
Alps key switches, and some still do today.)

Stephan

 

[Paul]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

The future ain't what it used to be

The thing is, we are on the edge of a transition. DDR2 memory
is coming, 64 bit computing with different sockets for processors,
PCI Express instead of AGP for video cards, BTX form factor
motherboards, and so on. If you buy a board now, it is at the
end of the current generation of stuff - this is particularly
bad if you don't currently own a good AGP card to put in this
system you are buying. If you buy an expensive AGP card now,
when the next systems come out, there won't be an AGP slot to
put it into.

I guess whether you'll be happy or not, depends on your point
of view. My rule of thumb is "don't upgrade until you can
double the performance". By that rule, if you buy a P4C800-E,
the P4 socket 478 of your choice, a ATI9800XT or an FX5950,
a big ass power supply, you won't need to upgrade for two
to three years.

In the AMD camp, there are the 64 bit processors (and two
different sockets for them), offering similar or better performance.
The difference with these, is the new AMD processors have the
memory controller inside the processor, instead of in the
Northbridge. This reduces memory latency, but it also means
you are a slave to whatever the limits of this memory
controller happen to be. Of the two AMD processors, one is
single channel (socket 754) and the other is dual channel.
The single channel processor takes two double sided unbuffered
DDR400 memories at DDR400, but slows to DDR333 with three
sticks. (See the K8V on the Asus site for details.)

The dual channel AMD FX processor (socket 940, to give the extra
pins needed for the second dram channel) uses registered ECC
PC3200 memory, something which is relatively new on the market.
PC2100 registered ECC memory has been around for ages (and there
is plenty of it), while the PC3200 registered memory is new,
because the faster register chips were created in March of 2003.
The Asus SK8V has four DIMM sockets on it, so you can install
more memory than the K8V. Since registered memory allows the
use of larger modules (the purpose of the register is to
buffer the address and control signals), you can use 4 x 2GB
of registered ECC memory. (As for the SK8N motherboard, you
might want to check whether the Hypertransport bug has been
fixed ot not - the Nforce3, at release, couldn't run the
Hypertransport bus at full speed.)

Have fun,
Paul

 

[Andrew]

I've seen a AMD toast the plastic socket it was in, without being
overclocked.

Maybe, but for the last 2 years they have had overheating protection
built in to the chip.

Its a shame your lengthy experience with computers has left you
reluctant to change. Intel is playing catchup with AMD big time at the
moment.

 

[S.Heenan]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

It would be nice to be able to recommend a 64-bit system to keep you going
for a few years. In reality, it's not quite that simple. Hardware drivers,
and software are two concerns. The BTX form factor, DDR II, and PCI-X are
others.

A good quality 32-bit system will very likely meet your needs for the next
few years for ~$1050USD.

Asus P4C800 Deluxe
P4 2.8C
1GB PC3200 RAM
250GB SATA storage
ATI 9200 video
DVD+/-R/RW
brand name 400W+ PSU

An AMD 64-bit system can be built for the same money, but with Socket
949,BTX, DDR II etc around the corner, I fail to see the virtue of this
route.

 

[Rob Stow]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

Tyan S2885 motherboard
Dual Opteron 246
4 to 16 GB PC3200 ECC
Radeon 9800 Pro
3Ware 8 port SATA RAID controller, with DIMM socket for cache
(Here's where the PCI-X ports on the mobo come in handy.)
4 200 GB Seagate 7200 RPM SATA drives, RAID 1+0 or RAID 5
DVD+-RW

Bump the Opties down to 240s and the video down to 9200 Pro and
you save about $1500 and get a system that a friend of mine
built a couple of months ago. He runs Linux (32 and 64 bit),
Solaris (64 bit beta), and WinXP (32 and 64 bit beta).
Radeon 9800 Pro drivers for WinXP 64 and Solaris suck so far, but
basic 2D functionality is OK.

The RAID card is new for him - until this weekend he was using the
4 port SATA controller on the motherboard. His boss offered him
the card and he jumped at the chance.

At work he does CAD with a dual Opty 246 / 16 GB, at home he does
video editting and games with his dual Opty 240 / 8 GB.

 

[Philip Callan]

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Andrew wrote:
| On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:10:18 GMT, Philip Callan <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
|
|>I've seen a AMD toast the plastic socket it was in, without being
|>overclocked.
|
|
| Maybe, but for the last 2 years they have had overheating protection
| built in to the chip.
|
| Its a shame your lengthy experience with computers has left you
| reluctant to change. Intel is playing catchup with AMD big time at the
| moment.
How do you figure AMD copying Intel and doing a 64bit which intel has
had on the server/high perf computing end (where its NEEDED) for a long
time...

Maybe you should study cpu history a bit more.

AS for reluctance to change, I'll admit it, I have built probably on the
order of 250 systems over the years, and only maybe a dozen were AMD
boxes at the customer's request.

Of those 230 Intel, I've had 11 fail (note even 5%) of those 12 AMD,
I've had to go back and replace either the PSU , the RAM or a new
HSF/Fan just to keep the temperatures reasonable on 4 of them (thats
like 30%! Argh.) otherwise they exhibited erratic behavior when warm.

Since then I have always advised against putting a AMD system in a
critical enviroment.

The 64bit desktops still need work on their chipsets and memory control,
and he wants an upgrade path, well intel has stated they intend on
making Socket478 for a while yet, as a system builder with 13+ years
experience, I could go on, but you seem to think that more bits = more
performance, and I wont go into the requirements for true 64 bit code to
see its full performance, etc etc

You wanna get raped on a 1st generation chip with bugs, you go ahead,
but when a person asks for some advice, simply regurgitating AMD
propaganda that '64 bit is the best' is neither cost effective, nor helpful.

Philip

Philip
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[Stephan Grossklass]

(As for the SK8N motherboard, you
might want to check whether the Hypertransport bug has been
fixed ot not - the Nforce3, at release, couldn't run the
Hypertransport bus at full speed.)

I heard it's fixed in the Nforce3 250. Apparently the 150 is a typical
1st generation chipset, some flaws included...

Stephan

 

[Rob Stow]

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Andrew wrote:
| On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:10:18 GMT, Philip Callan <[email protected]>
| wrote:
|
|
|>I've seen a AMD toast the plastic socket it was in, without being
|>overclocked.
|
|
| Maybe, but for the last 2 years they have had overheating protection
| built in to the chip.
|
| Its a shame your lengthy experience with computers has left you
| reluctant to change. Intel is playing catchup with AMD big time at the
| moment.
How do you figure AMD copying Intel and doing a 64bit which intel has
had on the server/high perf computing end (where its NEEDED) for a long
time...

Maybe you should study cpu history a bit more.

AS for reluctance to change, I'll admit it, I have built probably on the
order of 250 systems over the years, and only maybe a dozen were AMD
boxes at the customer's request.

Of those 230 Intel, I've had 11 fail (note even 5%) of those 12 AMD,
I've had to go back and replace either the PSU , the RAM or a new
HSF/Fan just to keep the temperatures reasonable on 4 of them (thats
like 30%! Argh.) otherwise they exhibited erratic behavior when warm.

Your high failure rate when building AMD systems says a lot
about *you*. In my spare time I build two or three systems
per month based on AMD processors and I have done that for
9 or 10 years with exactly one failure when a brand new
cpu fan died after only a few days usage. That one failure
is hard to replicate with the latest AMD processors and
motherboards because thermal protection measures have improved
a great deal over the last couple of years.

Since then I have always advised against putting a AMD system in a
critical enviroment.

I don't find any difference in reliability between Intel and AMD
systems. For the 18 months or so, however, AthlonXP, AthlonMP,
Athlon64, and Opteron processors have had the advantage of running a
*lot* cooler than comparably performing Intel P4 or Xeon processors,
which lets you use fewer case fans and quieter cpu fans - and you
save on your power bill.

The 64bit desktops still need work on their chipsets and memory control,
and he wants an upgrade path, well intel has stated they intend on
making Socket478 for a while yet, as a system builder with 13+ years
experience, I could go on, but you seem to think that more bits = more
performance, and I wont go into the requirements for true 64 bit code to
see its full performance, etc etc

If you don't want to consider AMD's 64 bit usefulness, then ignore
it and simply look at its outstanding 32 bit performance by the
Athlon64, AthlonFX and Opteron. Why spend more for an Intel cpu
that uses a lot more electricity, produces a lot more heat, and
can't keep up in most apps ?

 

[Philip Callan]

Rob Stow wrote:
|> Of those 230 Intel, I've had 11 fail (note even 5%) of those 12 AMD,
|> I've had to go back and replace either the PSU , the RAM or a new
|> HSF/Fan just to keep the temperatures reasonable on 4 of them (thats
|> like 30%! Argh.) otherwise they exhibited erratic behavior when warm.
|
|
| Your high failure rate when building AMD systems says a lot
| about *you*.

First off, I dont care how 'politely' you meant it, SCREW YOU, I've
forgotten more about computers than you know so 'Stow' it.

And what do you think is different between the two? the cases are the
same, CPU installation is the same, fans are fans, and mounting a HSF
and applying paste doesnt vary to any great degree between the
architectures.

I'll tell you what was different, Thermal protection on die, *AND*
proper implementation by the motherboard, this is 3-4 years back now, so
I have no doubt they have improved in that respect.

And they didnt 'fail' they just acted erratic becuase the stock HSF was
not adequate when machines are stuck in server rooms or in enclosed
spaces (which a lot of servers are)

| I don't find any difference in reliability between Intel and AMD
| systems.

Good for you, I was relating my own experience with them, not
particularly interested in starting a AMD/Intel war, but the OP asked,
and I gave him my advice, which has been echoed by others.

And for video editing/CAD/3d modeling there are *MORE* programs out
there with Hyperthreading and SSE2 support than 64 bit and a P4 3.0Ghz
w/HT can out encode DivX vs dual opteron, since it defaults to 3dnow
extentions.

Once again, for all the AMD64 fans:

|> You wanna get raped on a 1st generation chip with bugs, you go ahead,
|> but when a person asks for some advice, simply regurgitating AMD
|> propaganda that '64 bit is the best' is neither cost effective, nor
|> helpful.
|>
|> Philip

 

[Leythos]

I'm about to upgrade, and I need a solid system that's as future-proof
as possible. Applications? Mainly business graphics (autocad and
such), and digital stills and movies, with the usual spreadsheets and
word processors. Some gaming, I guess, but that's not a biggie.
Whilst money _is_ important, something that will serve me as far into
the future as possible is more important.
So...
If you had your druthers, and a good budget, what would you put into
a rather nice if a bit dated full tower if you were me?

Without a doubt, it would choose something with the Intel P4 Xeon and a
server class chipset. The PC-DL Deluxe supports Dual P4 Xeon and
standard RAM while also offering onboard GIG ethernet, sound, SATA, SATA
RAID, IDE, and Hyper-threading.

I built one of these a couple weeks ago and I've never been happier with
a system like this.

I got the following:

Case + 550W PSU
2 X 1GB RAM
2 x 250GB SATA Drives
2 X 2.4Ghz 533/P4 Xeon Intel CPU's
Large Case (5 fans, easy drive installation, cant remember name)
1 x RADEON 9200 AGP Video card

(I already had a CD-ROM, Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse)

Was apx $1800 at www.5oclock.com based in Ohio.

I'm running Windows 2003 Server on it so that I can benefit fully from
the server chips and Hyper-Threading. There is no lag, CPU's never hit
more than 10%, and I'm running 2 x Counter-Strike Dedicated servers (16
players each), 30+ FTP Sites, 20+ ASP/ASP.Net web sites, and a small SQL
database application.

If you want future-proof, get Intel, get Xeon. The only issue here is
that you need Windows XP professional or 2003 in order to fully utilize
the capability of the hardware on a machine like this.

 

[Leythos]

Your high failure rate when building AMD systems says a lot
about *you*. In my spare time I build two or three systems
per month based on AMD processors and I have done that for
9 or 10 years with exactly one failure when a brand new
cpu fan died after only a few days usage. That one failure
is hard to replicate with the latest AMD processors and
motherboards because thermal protection measures have improved
a great deal over the last couple of years.

Guys, the CPU's didn't fail, it was other parts that failed that caused
other failures.

You can't really say that a failed FAN, Hard drive, motherboard has
anything to do with Intel or AMD, it was the actual component that
failed that caused the problem.

In over 20 years of building computers (more than 1000 of them) I can
say that I've only had one bad CPU in all that time - it was on a new
Dual Xeon P4 system that I ordered a couple weeks ago - one of the P4
Xeon's was defective when received (less than 3 days to get the
replacement).

The real crux if the Intel/AMD war is the supporting chipsets by the
various motherboard vendors. In the past, my experience shows that new
motherboards for AMD chips don't seem to get the same level of QA as do
the ones for Intel chips (again, this has little to do with AMD or
Intel). Since the motherboard vendors are trying to hit a "Price Point"
they often cut corners knowing that they can most likely fix a
production problem with a BIOS update once it's in the field. I've seen
this on all vendors, but it's more common on the AMD based systems than
the Intel based systems - notice I said that BOTH have problems and
didn't say that Intel was perfect.

If you want to have a machine that will last 5+ years, get a Xeon. Last
year I remove many old Pentium Pro 200 Mhz (Dual CPU) servers from use
as departmental file servers - these machines were way past their prime,
but they still worked well. They were removed from service due to
warranty coverage, not because they were under-performing. In case you
didn't know, the PP200 were a server chip that has been available for
almost 10 years. You don't have to be on the bleeding edge to be
productive.