MM2 - Output Video Quality looks like 12.5FPS

[Nathan Kronert]

Greetings -

Another question for the group...

I have been playing quite a deal and have found that for
the most part, the output of my videos seems to be quite
notchy. Not notchy in the sense of dropped frames, but in
that it looks like tht output to DV is at 12.5 Frames Per
Second.

It's particularly noticable on moving things whose
physics seem messed up by such an effect. A great example
of this is a moving car, or, the material in a flowing
dress.

I have looked at the original DV tape of this and the
input tape looks great, with no hint of the lower FPS
issue.

I have been working at DV quality for the entire process,
importing from the DV camera direct at full DV quality
(13.5GB for 1 hour, 7 mins).

All output after chopping up to clips seems to be at a
less than full speed frame rate.

Now: When I output to DV-AVI, it *seems* to be fine,
though it's difficult to get the same perspective of
viewing as you get on a TV... It's possible that it's
still not too flashy.

ALL of the output formats that I'm likley to use are
listed as 25 FPS in the output options, so I don't think
it's the output choice I'm stuffing up...

So, with this information in hand, I have some questions:
- Is MM2 capable of full frame rate, full quality DV
output?
- Is there any option or setting I could have mistakenly
set that would cause it to be output at anything less
than 25 FPS?
- Is there anything in terms of interlacing that I
should watch out for? Is this perhaps a result of
interlace / de-interlace or something of that nature?
- Has anyone else seen this kind of behavious and can
they possibly help?
- WHY is it that MM2 in the preview area only supports
frame advance at what I believe to be 2 frames at a time.
- Is there any way to actually get a REAL frame advance?

Questions, questions, questions!

For any information, thanks!

Nathan.

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

MM2 is a 15 fps editing environment. MM1 is 30 fps.

The saved movies are at whatever frame rate is in the profile - for DV-AVI
it would be 30 fps for NTSC and 25 for PAL.


PapaJohn

 

[Nathan Kronert]

Thanks.

That's one question answered... Indeed, I created a short
clip and verified the output quality for myself. 25 FPS,
all clear on the short clip.

More on my current issue:

I have verified that the input AVI I have used for the
job is indeed 25 FPS and gives me 25 CLEAR frames per
second that all follow the sequence you would expect for
normal, natural movement.

I checked an AVI I had created as a DV-AVI. It was
already stuffed, so it's not a DV camera problem...

Looking at it closely, it would seem that there are a
number of clear frames (2 to 3, with no apparent
pattern), then a fuzzy frame that does not seem to follow
the logical sequence. The fuzzy frame is almost a
duplicate of the previous frame, but has been wound back
1/4 to 1/2 a frame worth and also blurred...

The result is, of course, less than flattering for the
quality of output DV can afford.

I have actually created a short two-clip movie from the
SAME input AVI and it comes out looking fine, with no
fuzzy, strange looking frames, and all 25 FPS are clear.

I added one transition between clips and re-recorded and
it still looked fine. I also added an extra audio track
and it still looked fine...

Unfortunately, the movie that it is breaking is a 57
minute wedding video, so each time I outout it takes
about 4 - 5 hours.

I'll continue to experiment to see whn it is that it
breaks down and starts giving me crappy output.

This seems to be another bus int he software. Anyone out
there seen anything like this?

Anyone - Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Nathan.

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

I would think that, looking at it that closely, you are seeing how the
encoding codec handles it. On my computers the Microsoft DV codec is used by
Movie Maker and by Premiere to make DV-AVI files, so they look the same from
each. It might go beyond MM2 and into the installed codecs that your
computer uses to render digital video files. I don't know if you can opt to
have MM2 use a different one.

Also, I have a page devoted to Video Issues that users have reported with
MM2. It's the Problem Solving... Video Issues one at www.papajohn.org - it
might help to review it.

PapaJohn

 

[Nathan Kronert]

Thanks Papajohn.

I had already looked at the video issues on your page,
and nothing there resembled the problem that I'm having
at the moment, from what I could tell.

It seems a little strange to me that I can use the same
source and get two results that are so different... The
codec does supply good looking output on the short clips,
so it's not a flat out dud codec.

Again, I'll play around and see if there is some kind
of 'trigger' that causes this. Perhaps it has something
to do with length of the movie or number of transitions
or other...

I may have asked this before, but is there a way that
bugs / problem with Movie Maker can be reported to
Microsoft other than through this group?

Thanks.

Nathan.

-----Original Message-----

I would think that, looking at it that closely, you are seeing how the
encoding codec handles it. On my computers the Microsoft DV codec is used by
Movie Maker and by Premiere to make DV-AVI files, so they look the same from
each. It might go beyond MM2 and into the installed codecs that your
computer uses to render digital video files. I don't know if you can opt to
have MM2 use a different one.

Also, I have a page devoted to Video Issues that users have reported with
MM2. It's the Problem Solving... Video Issues one at

www.papajohn.org - it

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

I think that your posting here is the best way to report to Microsoft. But
maybe there are other better ways that I don't know of or don't use.

As an MVP I get to communicate routinely with Microsoft via email, and help
in the rolling up of the real issues, and sorting things out. But I'm only
one input to them.

PapaJohn

 

[Michel]

Nathan,

I also have the kind of behaviour you describe (strange video flow),
especially apparent when the movie is watched on TV (MM2 -> dv-avi ->
mpeg2 -> DVD) and only during titles and transitions (for the duration of
them). But the problem is not systematic (at some places in the movie, the
video flow is OK during titles or transitions).

I suppose the problem makes part of the general "save to dv-avi" problem
that includes the occasional skips in audio track at the start or end point
of titles and transitions.

I also suppose the problem may be system related as other users do not
report it. If the problem is system related, there should be a way to solve
it (but I don't see it... any ideas from the specialists?).

A question: Nathan, are you also a PAL user? I have the impression that most
users that report such problem are PAL users. Am I wrong?

Have a nice day.

Michel

 

[Nathan Kronert]

Indeed I am a PAL user. We Aussies cannot avoid it...

Unfortunately, my DV camera only supports PAL. (VCR and
TV both support NTSC... )

I'm in the process of seeing what it is that causes it to
go bad. I am starting with a known dud video, that I'll
save it as a control sample, then strip it down to see if
the problem goes away...

I know that my system *is* capable of full DV Quality if
I work with short clips, and I also know that I can make
it work with both transitions and audio all together
(with the slight exception of the bug described by KB
article 812610 where it munges the audio on transition).

So, now I just need to work out what the trigger is...

I'll keep the group posted on anything I turn up.

Nathan.

 

[Nathan Kronert]

PapaJohn -

As a favour, is there any way you might be able to ask
your friends at MS if there are better ways to report
problems with MM2?

Thanks!

Nathan.

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

Hi Nathan,

Just popped a note to them to confirm what I'm saying, that the best way to
report is via posting here. But I'll check to see if there are other better
ways. I might be missing it because I can always email them.

PapaJohn

 

[PapaJohn \(MVP\)]

Hi Nathan,

Here's the response I got from Microsoft:

"Newsgroup is best place - first place the product team goes."

PapaJohn

 

[Nathan Kronert]

Thanks, PapaJohn...

I'll make some posts titled BUG REPORT and see how we go.

I think I may have a workaround for my second problem,
but it's a terrible workaround... Cost me heaps of time
too... You'll see my postings in the next few days with
any luck.

Perhaps you could suggest to the product team that they
could post to the group to let the users know that they
acknowledge the problem and are doing something about it?

Thanks again for all your help and feedback on this.

Nathan.