Microsoft Office 2003 EULA clarification

[kurttrail]

And you said you'd read the EULA on line which prompted me to point
out that the EULA you read might not apply to the product you
purchased.

You still don't get it. HE HASN'T PURCHASED A PRODUCT YET!

EULAs change, the copy you buy might be an earlier
version of the EULA if it's been modified lately. The one you agree
to is the one packaged with your product, not a possibly newer and
revised version on line. In addition, Microsoft has several
different EULAs on their website for different versions of Office,
it's easy to read the wrong one.

MS's revises EULAs with Service Packs, so all the OP has to do is update
to the newest SP, to be covered under the latest revision as posted on
MS's web site.

Personally, I wouldn't give a sh*t about any stinkin' EULAs, because for
personal non-commercial use, MS has yet to legally prove that they have
a right to limit any individual's "fair use" of their copy of
copyrighted software in the privacy of their home.

When MS legally proves it has that right, then, and only then, will I
pay any attention to its EULA claims.

--
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[Jupiter Jones [MVP]]

Jerry;
If this was mentioned earlier I missed it.
If you are in North America, you can return Microsoft software directly to
Microsoft within 30 days.
Opened or not, it does not matter:
http://www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm

As for the EULA, this is far from ideal since you can not read the specific
EULA for that product until purchase, opening and inserting CD and reading
the EULA text file. .
But Retail Office is two installations, one portable and a desktop on
computers used by the same user.
This may not be clear on the box.
Office 2003 Students and Teachers is 3 computers (laptop, desktop, all the
same, mix etc IIRC) and is clearly marked on the box.
Qualifying for S=T is easy and you probably qualify.

 

[All Things Mopar]

On this date, Jupiter Jones [MVP] extended this wisdom for
the consideration of other readers...

Jerry;
If this was mentioned earlier I missed it.
If you are in North America, you can return Microsoft
software directly to Microsoft within 30 days.
Opened or not, it does not matter:
http://www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm

I didn't know about this. Thanks muchly!

As for the EULA, this is far from ideal since you can not
read the specific EULA for that product until purchase,
opening and inserting CD and reading the EULA text file. .
But Retail Office is two installations, one portable and a
desktop on computers used by the same user.

That's the way I read the EULAs on-line.

This may not be clear on the box.

It's not on the box at all except for the Students & Teachers
edition you talk about below.

Office 2003 Students and Teachers is 3 computers (laptop,
desktop, all the same, mix etc IIRC) and is clearly marked
on the box. Qualifying for S=T is easy and you probably
qualify.

I've been led to believe that the S & T edition /does/ limit
the installs to 3 but the "regular" versions do not count
installs at all. Still, to restate my OP, my intent is /not/
to try to cicumvent M$'s right to license their product, I
just want to try my best to verify in advance that they're not
going to try to foist the idea of buying two licensing for my
2 computers, like some companies do. I think Symantec now
restricts their products to only one PC hardware config, maybe
Adobe PS CS2 also, don't know about them.

I also stated before that I don't bootleg, I don't make copies
of CDs for people, protected or not, and I don't accept
software from people, original or cracked. I am also a
strictly personal user, no commercial use whatsoever.

I guess my opinion on pirating goes back to the days when I
sold software commercially and some shareware. I never got
rich but I did dislike the bootleggers. And, I think our
software would be less problematical if so much of the
developers effort didn't go into "protecting" it. Just my
thoughts, YMMV.

 

[David R. Norton MVP]

But - for most MS products don't you have to start installing it to read
the EULA?
Yes.

And you just stated the online EULA (or any EULA) could be different for
any version/revision/etc you bought - so even if they have the same copy
already installed in store - wouldn't they have to install and read YOUR
EULA in order to be sure they are in compliance? heh

You snipped the part where I said to print it out and take it to the store
with you.

 

[David R. Norton MVP]

If M$ is too damn dumb to keep their EULA site up-to-
date, I guess they deserve what they get - no sale.

You miss the point. Microsoft's website IS up to date, the latest version of
the EULA will be there. But that box in the store could be a year old and
the EULA could have been revised since the software was packaged.

The EULA you agree to is the one in the box that installs on your machine,
not the one on the website.

Again, the /entire/ purpose of my OP was that these
EULAs are intentionally written in legalese so as to be
hard to understand but easy for M$ to defend, and not
being an intellectual property attorney, it wasn't at
all obvious to me exactly what were my rights nor what I
was/was not permitted to do. From a couple of responses
I read in this thread, I'm not the only one who's
confused.

They can be pretty ambiguous, that's what lawyers do so that we'll need more
lawyers to figure out what it really means. It's called "job security".

 

[David R. Norton MVP]

ROFL! Now you are just BSing about the what you said earlier.

"Microsoft has several different EULAs for various versions of Office"

You were talking about different EULAs for different versions, not newer
versus older revisions of the EULA.

But thanks for demonstrating that you are full of sewer sh*t once again,
Norton! ;-)

I guess it's pretty difficult to explain to one who's illiterate. Possibly
when you learn to read and comprehend and not quote out of context we could
continue this discussion?

 

[kurttrail]

You snipped the part where I said to print it out and take it to the
store with you.

What does the store have to do with the EULA? Did they accept it?
Where in the EULA does it mandate that the store that sold the copy of
software is responsible to accept open box returns?

Stop BSing, Norton.

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[kurttrail]

You miss the point. Microsoft's website IS up to date, the latest
version of the EULA will be there. But that box in the store could
be a year old and the EULA could have been revised since the software
was packaged.

The EULA you agree to is the one in the box that installs on your
machine, not the one on the website.

As soon as the latest Service Pack is installed, the latest version of
the EULA covers his copy. All you are doing is Bullsh*tting, Norton.

They can be pretty ambiguous, that's what lawyers do so that we'll
need more lawyers to figure out what it really means. It's called
"job security".

Actually what it is called is a defense for not following the EULA
according to the interpretation of MS. The more ambiguous the contract,
the less likely that a court will side with the contractor [MS] for what
it perceives to be a breech.

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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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[David R. Norton MVP]

What does the store have to do with the EULA?

Nope, but they sold the product.

Where in the EULA does it mandate that the store that sold the copy of
software is responsible to accept open box returns?

Oh, I forgot your reading disability. That would be the part of the EULA
that says "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING,
COPYING OR USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY OR
USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL
REFUND...."

I think even you should be able to understand that.

Stop BSing, Norton.

I'm not, but you're certainly being unusually obtuse, even for you!

 

[David R. Norton MVP]

As soon as the latest Service Pack is installed, the latest version of
the EULA covers his copy. All you are doing is Bullsh*tting, Norton.

And until the latest SP is installed the version installed with the software
covers his copy, so? Did you have a point or are you just throwing up
irrelevant arguments as usual?

 

[Shenan Stanley]

You snipped the part where I said to print it out and take it to the
store with you.

Oops - you are correct.. My bad.

However, the store did not agree to that EULA when they sold it, so it is
their right not to accept it as a return. Many places will not accept
opened software. I know that in the US you can return the OS (not sure
about other MS products) to Microsoft and expect a return of your money
within your lifetime - but can you do this in other countries?

Also - isn't the online EULA all that matters - after all - when you install
the latest SP for the product - you usually get any changes to the EULA -
which should be the one online.

 

[kurttrail]

I guess it's pretty difficult to explain to one who's illiterate.
Possibly when you learn to read and comprehend and not quote out of
context we could continue this discussion?

"You may have read the wrong EULA. Microsoft has several different
EULAs for
various versions of Office, to make absolutely sure you get the right
one,
open any Office app on your own computer, click on Help/About and click
on
the "View the end user lisense agreement" link, it'll be in blue right
under
the product ID."

Entire post of where I quoted you from, which was you first post in this
thread. Nowhere do you say anything about newer versus older revisions
of the EULA.

But keep BSing, Norton! I'm enjoying it immensely!

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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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[kurttrail]

And until the latest SP is installed the version installed with the
software covers his copy, so? Did you have a point or are you just
throwing up irrelevant arguments as usual?

LOL! My point is you are FUDing the OP. BS and FUD, Norton. That is
all you are doing.

--
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Kurt
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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[kurttrail]

Nope, but they sold the product.

And they have every right to have their own return policy covering open
box software.

Oh, I forgot your reading disability. That would be the part of the
EULA that says "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY
INSTALLING, COPYING OR USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO
NOT INSTALL, COPY OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR
PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND...."

LOL! "YOU MAY!" That doesn't mean the place of purchase is obligated
to accept the refund!

So again I ask you, "Where in the EULA does it mandate that the store
that sold the copy of software is responsible to accept open box
returns?"

I think even you should be able to understand that.

I do. I also understand that you lifted that quote out of context!

"YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING,
OR USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE
THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL
REFUND, *IF* *APPLICABLE.*

I'm not, but you're certainly being unusually obtuse, even for you!

"All North American retail Microsoft software comes with a 30-day,
Microsoft money back guarantee. Retail products can most easily be
returned through the retailer where the product was purchased, *subject*
*to* *that* *retailer's* *return* *policy*, or directly to Microsoft,
subject to the policy below." -
http://www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm

Why are you being deceitful? MS cannot mandate a stores return policy
through its EULA.

I don't know where you live, but here in America, a retail store has the
right to make its own return policies, and no retail product
manufacturer can force a retailer to take a return against its own
expressed return policies.

And most of the major retailers in the US will NOT accept opened-box
software returns.

But please, keep bullsh*tting, and calling me obtuse! Just shows
everyone how full of sh*t you really are, Norton!

--
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Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[All Things Mopar]

On this date, kurttrail extended this wisdom for the
consideration of other readers...

LOL! My point is you are FUDing the OP. BS and FUD,
Norton. That is all you are doing.

Gee, I'm sorry to have created such a controversy by asking a
"simple" question! <grin>

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Gee, I'm sorry to have created such a controversy by asking a
"simple" question! <grin>

Search the newsgroups for "kurttrail" and/or "EULA" and you will find
hundreds.. thousands of these threads over the years.
Yours has now been added to the list.

 

[kurttrail]

Search the newsgroups for "kurttrail" and/or "EULA" and you will find
hundreds.. thousands of these threads over the years.
Yours has now been added to the list.

OK, do you agree with Norton's opinion that MS's Office EULA forces a
retailer to accept an open-box return?

If so, where in the EULA does it say it explicitly, and when did the
retailer agree to abide by the *END* *USERS* Licensing Agreement?

You bring up the fact that I've have a lot of posts regarding EULAs,
like that is supposed to mean something. What exactly are you alluding
to? Please be forthright in what you mean, instead of hiding behind
innuendo.

--
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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[kurttrail]

On this date, kurttrail extended this wisdom for the
consideration of other readers...


Gee, I'm sorry to have created such a controversy by asking a
"simple" question! <grin>

LOL! But what controversy? No one in their right mind is gonna back up
Norton's BS and FUD.

He just has a hard time admitting I'm right in correcting his obvious
errors.

--
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Kurt
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
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[Shenan Stanley]

Gee, I'm sorry to have created such a controversy by asking a
"simple" question! <grin>

Search the newsgroups for "kurttrail" and/or "EULA" and you will find
hundreds.. thousands of these threads over the years.
Yours has now been added to the list.

OK, do you agree with Norton's opinion that MS's Office EULA forces a
retailer to accept an open-box return?

If so, where in the EULA does it say it explicitly, and when did the
retailer agree to abide by the *END* *USERS* Licensing Agreement?

You bring up the fact that I've have a lot of posts regarding EULAs,
like that is supposed to mean something. What exactly are you
alluding to? Please be forthright in what you mean, instead of
hiding behind innuendo.

Kurt,

You are getting paranoid in your older days, man. I said exactly what I
meant in response to the only part I clipped. "All Things Mopar" presented
the "apology" for starting such a thread and I pointed out that they hadn't
done anything unique - there are hundreds if not thousands of such posts in
the Microsoft Newsgroups they could find with a simple search - and even you
have to admit - most of them have your involvement in them.

No innuendo - simple statement of fact.

As for agreeing or disagreeing - I think it's a moot point. I gave my
questions/statement elswhere in this thread - but to cool your paranoia,
here is my last set of questions in reguard to this thread (and directed to
David R. Norton:

"However, the store did not agree to that EULA when they sold it, so it is
their right not to accept it as a return. Many places will not accept
opened software. I know that in the US you can return the OS (not sure
about other MS products) to Microsoft and expect a return of your money
within your lifetime - but can you do this in other countries?

Also - isn't the online EULA all that matters - after all - when you install
the latest SP for the product - you usually get any changes to the EULA -
which should be the one online."

Does that satisfy your questions or do you feel I am still not being blunt
enough. If not blunt enough, here you go directly to your questions:

Microsoft's EULA does not force a retailer to do anything. The retailer did
not agree to the EULA and even if they did, they have the right in the
united States to not give you any service what-so-ever if they "just don't
feel like it" at the most extreme end of the scale. Will it hurt their
business? Maybe - do they have to care? No.

For the second statement with a question mark - that seems to be answered in
my first direct answer fairly well.

As for the third - you post a lot of stuff in response to people's EULA
concerns and activation and such when it comes to microsoft products - so I
thought it pretty straight forward to tell the OP they started nothing new -
prove it to themselves by searching either for "kurttrail" and/or "EULA".
Where you find a hidden agenda or innuendo in that - well, I have no idea..
They have meds for that now though.. *grin*

 

[kurttrail]

Kurt,

You are getting paranoid in your older days, man. I said exactly
what I meant in response to the only part I clipped. "All Things
Mopar" presented the "apology" for starting such a thread and I
pointed out that they hadn't done anything unique - there are
hundreds if not thousands of such posts in the Microsoft Newsgroups
they could find with a simple search - and even you have to admit -
most of them have your involvement in them.
No innuendo - simple statement of fact.

As for agreeing or disagreeing - I think it's a moot point. I gave my
questions/statement elswhere in this thread - but to cool your
paranoia, here is my last set of questions in reguard to this thread
(and directed to David R. Norton:

"However, the store did not agree to that EULA when they sold it, so
it is their right not to accept it as a return. Many places will not
accept opened software. I know that in the US you can return the OS
(not sure about other MS products) to Microsoft and expect a return
of your money within your lifetime - but can you do this in other
countries?
Also - isn't the online EULA all that matters - after all - when you
install the latest SP for the product - you usually get any changes
to the EULA - which should be the one online."

Does that satisfy your questions or do you feel I am still not being
blunt enough. If not blunt enough, here you go directly to your
questions:
Microsoft's EULA does not force a retailer to do anything. The
retailer did not agree to the EULA and even if they did, they have
the right in the united States to not give you any service
what-so-ever if they "just don't feel like it" at the most extreme
end of the scale. Will it hurt their business? Maybe - do they have
to care? No.
For the second statement with a question mark - that seems to be
answered in my first direct answer fairly well.

As for the third - you post a lot of stuff in response to people's
EULA concerns and activation and such when it comes to microsoft
products - so I thought it pretty straight forward to tell the OP
they started nothing new - prove it to themselves by searching either
for "kurttrail" and/or "EULA". Where you find a hidden agenda or
innuendo in that - well, I have no idea.. They have meds for that now
though.. *grin*

LOL! Since EULA discussion has very very little to do with most of my
"hundreds.. thousands," I saw little relevance to add this thread to the
rest.

And I though you didn't agree with Norton's view about the EULA and
retailer's open-box return policies, and simple "no" would have
sufficed.

As for paranoia, paranoia in moderation isn't the worst problem to have.
Again, I saw no correlation between this Office EULA thread with my many
XP EULA posts about Windows EULA, so stating the fact of my previous
posts and adding my participation in this thread to them just seemed to
be missing something, hence I asked you to explain what you meant.

I see nothing "straight forward" about it. This thread and my normal
EULA posts are apples and oranges. While they are both fruits, you
really cannot confuse the two by using any and/or all of your senses.

If you think that is really paranoia, then that is your problem, and you
are just transferring.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
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"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"