MATX Sysytem Question

K

Kiwi1971

Hello everybody!! Advice needed.
I am looking at building a smaller desktop system based around dual
core AM2/MATX but as I game a lot I was wondering what people's
experience is with MATX systems and gaming. World Of Warcraft &
S.T.A.L.K.E.R as well other high demand applications. Photoshop, DivX
converter etc

I was thinking of going to the upper end of the AM2 chip range and get
the 6000+ rather than beyond with quad but was struggling to find a
decent board.

I know Intel are probably better suited to gaming but I've been a
while in the AMD camp so if someone has an Intel recommendation for a
better dual core processor and board I am all ears..or eyes rather.


TIA

Damon
 
P

Paul

Kiwi1971 said:
Sweet, I will read that when I get home. I may yet rid myself of my
cumbersome tower!!!#

Thanks

Damon

Some of the new high end video cards, are quite long. If you select
a small computer case, the video card will not fit. It could bump into
one of the hard drive cages.

http://www.schad.ws/casecon/8800gtx_kuehler_entfernt.jpg

The second issue with the long video cards, is they can cover up the
SATA connector ports. Make sure the layout of your new motherboard, places
the SATA ports where they will not conflict with a long video card.

Paul
 
P

Paul

Kiwi1971 said:
Does performance of the AM2 chips get reduced in anyway by being
fitted to a M-ATX board or would I not notice the difference?
Is the difference merely in the fact that there are fewer board slots?

Damon

Yeah, it is just fewer slots. Since the same chipsets are used
on microATX and full sized boards, there shouldn't be an issue
there. The BIOS may not be as full featured on the microATX
(full sized boards tend to have more custom voltage settings
and memory timings). In which case, I always recommend downloading
the PDF version of the manual, for details, before you buy.

Expect, in the best case, to see a picture of each BIOS screen,
but not a lot of detail about what the BIOS settings do. Some
motherboard makers are so cheap, they only tell you there are
five or six main screens of settings, and they don't give detailed
lists. I only buy stuff, where I know what each BIOS screen
contains.

On the one hand, if you aren't an overclocker, you would assume
that you'd never need to touch a BIOS screen. But there can be
situations, where you are using hardware and having stability
problems. The ability to adjust the voltage or change the
memory timing or frequency, can have some diagnostic value.
And if you need the system to continue to run, until you can
get parts to swap in for repair/replacement, then the ability
to keep the PC running, has some value.

There are some microATX boards, that are every bit as good as
a full sized ATX motherboard. But the thing that works against
good full featured boards, is the price factor. MicroATX boards
seem to be focused on a $50 price, which means they will be
cost reduced. If a voltage adjustment costs the manufacturer
$0.50 to add to the board, they would sooner remove it and
leave the voltage value fixed at the nominal value. So the
trick is, to find a "quality" microATX design. When you find
some motherboards for $30, you might suspect they've cut
corners on important things.

MicroATX boards are considered to be the core of "small business
PCs", and that is why they have a low cost target. If they
instead, were intended for enthusiasts or for HTPC usage,
then perhaps the qualities and features would be different.

If you go to the Newegg site, there are customer reviews for
many of the listed products. For the microATX boards, you
can look at those reviews, and spot motherboards that only
last three months. Some boards seem to do better than others,
and so reading those reviews is about the best you can do to
spot products that should be avoided. Some of the brands also
have web forums, and you can get further feedback about BIOS
problems or bad batches of motherboards, in the forums. No
matter what kind of motherboard you get, it takes on average
about 5 BIOS releases, before BIOS design issues are resolved
and the BIOS is fit to use.

There are some hardware differences, but they may not affect
you. In years past, a P4 for LGA775 could draw up to 130W. That
puts a decent load on the Vcore regulator circuit which is located
next to the CPU socket. Motherboards can have, 3, 4, 6, or 8 phase
power circuits. MicroATX boards might have 3 or 4 phase circuits.
Full sized boards, because they span the $50 to $400 range of prices,
can have anywhere from 3 to 8 phases or more. If you are using a
Core2 Duo 65W processor, of which there are a number of models,
the power consumption is so low, that even a cheesy Vcore regulator
is sufficient. The time when you need the eight phases, is when you
are taking a cheap dual core processor, like the Pentium D 805, and
overclocking it to 4GHz. Some of those draw more than 200W from
Vcore at that frequency, and the motherboard gets hot enough to
melt plastic. In that situation, it is reassuring to have an
eight phase regulator. But if you are using a 65W processor, and
not planning to overclock it, even a three phase regulator should
be good enough.

Onec you've spotted a motherboard you think looks like a good
deal, post the URL, and somebody can provide feedback on your
prospective purchase.

Paul
 
K

Kiwi1971

Yeah, it is just fewer slots. Since the same chipsets are used
on microATX and full sized boards, there shouldn't be an issue
there. The BIOS may not be as full featured on the microATX
(full sized boards tend to have more custom voltage settings
and memory timings). In which case, I always recommend downloading
the PDF version of the manual, for details, before you buy.

Expect, in the best case, to see a picture of each BIOS screen,
but not a lot of detail about what the BIOS settings do. Some
motherboard makers are so cheap, they only tell you there are
five or six main screens of settings, and they don't give detailed
lists. I only buy stuff, where I know what each BIOS screen
contains.

On the one hand, if you aren't an overclocker, you would assume
that you'd never need to touch a BIOS screen. But there can be
situations, where you are using hardware and having stability
problems. The ability to adjust the voltage or change the
memory timing or frequency, can have some diagnostic value.
And if you need the system to continue to run, until you can
get parts to swap in for repair/replacement, then the ability
to keep the PC running, has some value.

There are some microATX boards, that are every bit as good as
a full sized ATX motherboard. But the thing that works against
good full featured boards, is the price factor. MicroATX boards
seem to be focused on a $50 price, which means they will be
cost reduced. If a voltage adjustment costs the manufacturer
$0.50 to add to the board, they would sooner remove it and
leave the voltage value fixed at the nominal value. So the
trick is, to find a "quality" microATX design. When you find
some motherboards for $30, you might suspect they've cut
corners on important things.

MicroATX boards are considered to be the core of "small business
PCs", and that is why they have a low cost target. If they
instead, were intended for enthusiasts or for HTPC usage,
then perhaps the qualities and features would be different.

If you go to the Newegg site, there are customer reviews for
many of the listed products. For the microATX boards, you
can look at those reviews, and spot motherboards that only
last three months. Some boards seem to do better than others,
and so reading those reviews is about the best you can do to
spot products that should be avoided. Some of the brands also
have web forums, and you can get further feedback about BIOS
problems or bad batches of motherboards, in the forums. No
matter what kind of motherboard you get, it takes on average
about 5 BIOS releases, before BIOS design issues are resolved
and the BIOS is fit to use.

There are some hardware differences, but they may not affect
you. In years past, a P4 for LGA775 could draw up to 130W. That
puts a decent load on the Vcore regulator circuit which is located
next to the CPU socket. Motherboards can have, 3, 4, 6, or 8 phase
power circuits. MicroATX boards might have 3 or 4 phase circuits.
Full sized boards, because they span the $50 to $400 range of prices,
can have anywhere from 3 to 8 phases or more. If you are using a
Core2 Duo 65W processor, of which there are a number of models,
the power consumption is so low, that even a cheesy Vcore regulator
is sufficient. The time when you need the eight phases, is when you
are taking a cheap dual core processor, like the Pentium D 805, and
overclocking it to 4GHz. Some of those draw more than 200W from
Vcore at that frequency, and the motherboard gets hot enough to
melt plastic. In that situation, it is reassuring to have an
eight phase regulator. But if you are using a 65W processor, and
not planning to overclock it, even a three phase regulator should
be good enough.

Onec you've spotted a motherboard you think looks like a good
deal, post the URL, and somebody can provide feedback on your
prospective purchase.

Paul

Many thanks for this reply, it has given a lot of food for thought.

My current tower has a 450watt PSU; from what I am reading, m-ATX and
a lot of newer dual core chips seem all about more processing power
using lower wattage, will i need signifantly less in a M-ATX small
desktop? What power rating range am I looking at if I was to end up
with a case that required me to obtain the PSU seperately?


Damon
 
P

Paul

Kiwi1971 said:
Many thanks for this reply, it has given a lot of food for thought.

My current tower has a 450watt PSU; from what I am reading, m-ATX and
a lot of newer dual core chips seem all about more processing power
using lower wattage, will i need signifantly less in a M-ATX small
desktop? What power rating range am I looking at if I was to end up
with a case that required me to obtain the PSU seperately?


Damon

With a 65W Core2 Duo, and a low end video card, a 350W supply is
frequently enough.

I work out the requirements, primarily in terms of the +12V power
consumption. The processor uses +12V as a power source for the Vcore
switching regulator. At 90% efficiency, with the 65W processor, you'd
need 12V @ 6.02 amps. A hard drive needs 12V @ 0.6A while spinning.
A CD/DVD might need 12V @ 1.5A (but only while media is in the tray).
Cooling fans might draw 12V @ 0.5A for three average fans. A midrange
video card, might draw 12V @ 4A for example. Video card vary all over the
place, from 15-20W or so, up to 165W for one of the top ATI cards, and
that makes a big difference to the supply selected.

With the midrange video card in place, I'm at 6.02+0.6+1.5+0.5+4 = 12.6A
from the 12V rail. A 350W supply might manage 12V @ 15A, for example, and
would be as low as I'd want to go. It helps to have a couple amps margin.

The 3.3V/5V rails still supply some power, but it is harder to work out
ampere numbers for them. I allocate 50W for the motherboard and RAM,
5V @ 1A for disk drive, 5V @ 1.5A for CDROM, 5-10W for standby power (5VSB).
Power supplies have 3.3V/5V combined power limits, which will seldom be
a problem. The entire supply also has the total power limit (like the 350W
number). 12V * 12.6 + 50 + 5 + 7.5 + 10W = 224W. Which is less than the total
limit for the supply.

The efficiency of the supply, determines how hot it gets while supplying the
power. If the supply is only 68% efficient, to make 224W, it draws 224/0.68
= 329W from the wall, and 329 - 224 = 105W is wasted as heat inside the
supply. If the supply is 80% efficient, 224/0.80 = 280W, and 280 - 224 = 56W
is wasted as heat, that needs to be exhausted. The low efficiency supply fan
will have to run faster, to help keep the internal temperature of the supply
down. The 80% supply may cost double what the cheap supply will, but after
enough years pass, you may get some of the money back in power savings.

Chances are, no case will come with a good supply. Some of the Antecs might be
all right, but a $20 no-name case cannot possibly have a good supply in it.
Since I'm picky about supplies, I count on replacing it (and as a result, prefer
to buy a case without a power supply). That way, I can read reviews for the various
options (like the customer reviews on Newegg), and get some idea what would be
a decent choice.

The fact that you use M-ATX versus ATX, hardly affects the power consumption
at all. It doesn't use any power, to have a few more PCI slots. The same
components are being plugged in, and the big consumers (processor and video
card) are still present. One difference, is the M-ATX case is smaller, and
perhaps the peak internal temperature is higher - especially if using the
smaller case robs you of places to put cooling fans. I like to see a 120mm
fan on the back, and generous vents in the front of the unit, so it
can breathe.

Paul
 
K

Kiwi1971

The fact that you use M-ATX versus ATX, hardly affects the power consumption
at all. It doesn't use any power, to have a few more PCI slots. The same
components are being plugged in, and the big consumers (processor and video
card) are still present. One difference, is the M-ATX case is smaller, and
perhaps the peak internal temperature is higher - especially if using the
smaller case robs you of places to put cooling fans. I like to see a 120mm
fan on the back, and generous vents in the front of the unit, so it
can breathe.

Paul

Cheers again.
I have decided to go for something like http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/129280/rb/0
Thanks for your reassuring replies.

Damon
 

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