Looking for some Programmers

[Kevin]

Hey guys. I'm looking to get together some VB programmers on Yahoo
messenger. I sit at a computer and program all day.

I have about 3 or 4 people already, but it would be really cool to
have a much larger list of people (for all of us to benefit). I have
found it to be an invaluable resource to answer those hard or weird
programming questions that come up.

If you are interested, please reply, or send me an email at
(e-mail address removed)

-Kevin

 

[Jeff Dillon]

So you IM each one individually if you have a question? When one developer
comes up with a solution, do you then IM the rest with the answer, so
everyone gains?

Why not get them all on this newsgroup?

Jeff

 

[Kevin Gabbert]

It is a different format in which to deal with code issues. I've found
that it "makes the office bigger". --especially while debating issues.
I've been doing this for 2 years, and I have had a lot of success with
it.

The most helpful part I have found is that while I am talking with my
boss, conceptualizing a larger solution, that we can IM in real time to
see what their take on the idea would be.

it is not meant to *replace* the newsgroups at all. In fact, if you
come up with a good IM Session, it would be nice to post it on the
newsgroups to share with everyone else. In fact, I could visualize a
hybrid between the two as being a great 'Developer Center'

This wouldn't be for everyone, however, once you get the hang of it, it
is quicker than a phone call, and more convienent than a post.

Interested in giving it a try Jeff? whats to lose?

(e-mail address removed)
-Kevin

 

[Jeff Dillon]

Please answer my original questions. I don't see the benefit.

 

[Kevin Gabbert]

Jeff,
to respond in the spirit of which I think you may be asking:

So you IM each one individually if you have a question?

If you so choose. or you can IM the one that you know has the specific
skill(s) you need, just like, in my office, I might ask some programmers
questions about databases, but not others.

When one developer comes up with a solution, do you then IM
the rest with the answer, so everyone gains?

Again, if you so choose, howeever, IM is not the same animal as
newsgroups. It would probably get quite tedious to do that, though you
could.

The gain would be for each person on an immediate, & individual level.
Most people don't publish to large groups of other people using Instant
Messenger.

If you don't see the benefit, that is ok, newsgroups might be a better
format for what you are looking for.

-Kevin

 

[Larry Serflaten]

If you so choose. or you can IM the one that you know has the specific
skill(s) you need, just like, in my office, I might ask some programmers
questions about databases, but not others.

Isn't that a bother to the guy you ask a question from? I mean it may
take 15 or 20 minutes to answer some of the questions in a newsgroup,
looking up resources, typing up example code, etc (depending on response)

I would think it would be rather distracting. Do you find it somewhat so,
and just out of curiosity, what is your Answers to Questions ratio (approx.)?

LFS

 

[Lucas Tam]

(e-mail address removed) (Kevin) wrote in

I have about 3 or 4 people already, but it would be really cool to
have a much larger list of people (for all of us to benefit). I have
found it to be an invaluable resource to answer those hard or weird
programming questions that come up.

What's wrong with Usenet?

 

[Lucas Tam]

Isn't that a bother to the guy you ask a question from? I mean it may
take 15 or 20 minutes to answer some of the questions in a newsgroup,
looking up resources, typing up example code, etc (depending on
response)

I agree... I hate it when people IM me with computer or programming related
questions - it's absolutely distracting. However, with usenet I can reply
at my leisure.

 

[Richard Myers]

What's wrong with Usenet?

I think the primary problem with Usenet is that its very modern and highly individualised. Theres no
real "community" too it. Someone asks a question;gets what they want and then the thread ends, often
without so much as a thanks, or more importantly an acknowledgement that something did or did not
work.

Now you could argue that it would be a sad indictment on anyones life to be looking for self esteem
by answering question after question in some virtual space from people they have never met. And i'd
be inclined to agree with you.

But its clear that a highly disproportionate amount of the benefit, in newsgroups such as this,
accrues to those who are the least skilled. I dont wish to sound elitist but i think its an absurd
waste of human captial to have someone who is clearly a paid software professional answering a 101
question about how to read the value of a text box on one form from another.

(Free will aside of course, i realise people make a choice to answer a given post, etc etc; )

So what Kevin is inviting us too join would certainly have some benefit to those who are looking for
a greater sense of community and/or a more even match of skillsets. Its just many of us already have
that amongst our peers/work mates and so subsequently will see little benefit in participating in
the group.

Richard

 

[Lucas Tam]

I think the primary problem with Usenet is that its very modern and
highly individualised. Theres no real "community" too it. Someone asks
a question;gets what they want and then the thread ends, often without
so much as a thanks, or more importantly an acknowledgement that
something did or did not work.

It's bad netiquette to post a thank you - it's considered a waste of
bandwidth ; )

As for posts without a follow up, you can blame that on websites like
developerdex, groupsrv, maybe even google groups. Too many people post
to these sites without realizing it's usenet and then they never come
back to check their messages. Other people just don't know how to use
their newclients.

But its clear that a highly disproportionate amount of the benefit, in
newsgroups such as this, accrues to those who are the least skilled. I
dont wish to sound elitist but i think its an absurd waste of human
captial to have someone who is clearly a paid software professional
answering a 101 question about how to read the value of a text box on
one form from another.

That's why someone else will probably respond to those questions.

(Free will aside of course, i realise people make a choice to answer a
given post, etc etc; )

Exactly my point!

So what Kevin is inviting us too join would certainly have some
benefit to those who are looking for a greater sense of community
and/or a more even match of skillsets. Its just many of us already
have that amongst our peers/work mates and so subsequently will see
little benefit in participating in the group.

Maybe a web based message board for advanced programming techniques
maybe a better medium? IM is nice... but it's too hard to involve
multiple people because it is too "real-time" - especially at work when
a lot of people are busy. And what happens when you have a weak link in
your IM group and that person starts messaging everyone? You'll run into
the "match of skillsets" problem you have on Usenet.

I think IM is best suited for a group of close friends or a work
group... but an entire programming community - that maybe a bit of a
stretch.

 

[Cor Ligthert]

Lucas,

It's bad netiquette to post a thank you - it's considered a waste of
bandwidth ; )

It is not the thank, however in this kind of newsgroups it it in my opinion
important to acknowledge that the solution fits.

How many times we see not on internet given advices which are real stupid
and do not work.

That that goes than with a kind of thank is only a kind of politness.

Just my thought,

Cor

 

[Richard Myers]

It's bad netiquette to post a thank you - it's considered a waste of

bandwidth ; )

Yep. And im not advocating a change to that "policy" either way.

As for posts without a follow up, you can blame that on websites like
developerdex, groupsrv, maybe even google groups. Too many people post
to these sites without realizing it's usenet and then they never come
back to check their messages. Other people just don't know how to use
their newclients.

Sure and those are all good reasons why someone may want to start their own forum.

That's why someone else will probably respond to those questions.


Exactly my point!

Maybe a web based message board for advanced programming techniques
maybe a better medium? IM is nice... but it's too hard to involve
multiple people because it is too "real-time" - especially at work when
a lot of people are busy. And what happens when you have a weak link in
your IM group and that person starts messaging everyone? You'll run into
the "match of skillsets" problem you have on Usenet.

Although in an IM environment you can "control" for that which would be the main advantage.

I think IM is best suited for a group of close friends or a work
group... but an entire programming community - that maybe a bit of a
stretch.

I agree although he does only have a group of 4 so far so i dont think he pushing the bounds of
messaging technology just yet.


Richard

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

I agree... I hate it when people IM me with computer or programming
related
questions - it's absolutely distracting. However, with usenet I can reply
at my leisure.

I agree... I prefer newsgroups because when asking a question there is a
much larger "pool" of people who can provide help. And some newsgroups like
this provide "real-time" support for most questions. Another advantage is
that the messages posted to groups are archived and thus can be easily
searched by people looking for an answer to their questions.

IM has some advantages too, maybe you'll get replies faster and you can
"chat" a little bit more than in the newsgroups.

 

[Aaron Smith]

There is always IRC too.. But the problem with that is in the rooms I
have been in, most of them are not very advanced or they just sit there
and never respond to any messages... But I have gotten a lot of good
answers out of it too...

 

[Mythran]

Lucas,

It is not the thank, however in this kind of newsgroups it it in my
opinion important to acknowledge that the solution fits.

How many times we see not on internet given advices which are real stupid
and do not work.

That that goes than with a kind of thank is only a kind of politness.

Just my thought,

Cor

At my jobsite, we have 2 IM's set up. First and primary one is GW
Messenger....very good for contact lists and such that are in our
GroupWise/Ware directory...we use this for all of our in-house contacts
(in-house means County wide....quite a large area...not just in this
building). Our 2nd IM is MSNMGR...much better for Internet contacts...and
my primary newsreader is (*gasp*....quite holding yer breath....*gasp*)
Outlook EXPRESS! Actually, I like it quite a bit but will be moving back to
Mozilla news.

Anywho, I use both IM's and NG's...IM's for people that see me from these ms
newsgroups come to me quite often. . . and I post frequently on most of the
..Net and scripting ng's....mostly replies but at least once a week with
questions I have.

So, combining the two is how I find and give answers....I won't just
cling/clutch to just one form of help...otherwise I would be limiting myself
to resources that sometimes, just aren't enough...

Good luck

Mythran

 

[Kevin Gabbert]

I feel like I'm trying to sell a fax machine in the 1960's..
the public aspect of usenet makes me think of it this a comparison
between a 2 way newspaper and a telephone.

I think Usenet is great. --though it is a different kind of tool, and
I definitely do not intend to give it up. Instant messaging will not be
taking people away from usenet. if anything, it may reduce the number of
dumb questions asked! - and we all have our *own* dumb questions, so it
is not like any of us has a monopoly on programming knowledge. Then
there are the stupid questions that we SHOULD ask in newsgroups but
dont.

One of the responses mentioned that it might take 15 to 20 minutes to
research and type up an answer to a question, and Usenet is great for
that. However, it is not great when people ask you a single question,
like: "Did you try this?", and of course that is the question you may
be looking for. ("Hey Fred, can you IM me your code to parse the
directory off your filepath?")

also, if you post off-subject in some newsgroups, people can get quite
miffed. It can be a pain to have a question that hits 3 skill sets, and
have go post a tailored question with a sample to each one.

IM *cannot* replace newsgroups because you need the larger pool of
people and thier archived questions. Public Archived Chats don't exist
yet (that I am aware of), however, that would be a great idea! Its
almost as troublesome a concept as archived phone calls!

Usenet, as a public forum, seems at times to be a medium in which for
egos to puff up. -and there is a 'public' face to some of the questions
(and answers).

I think that some personalities on usenet are looked upon for some
weighty advice, and possibly would not say some of the same things if
they were 'in the room with you' - and of course they'd say something
totally different if they saw your entire program!

Answer to question ratio, for me, is about the same as usenet. I get
about a 50% response rate. some of the guys, if they are busy, don't
respond. -and its the same with me too. if I am busy, I don't either.
same with usenet

I do agree that IM can be distracting, however, with usenet, you have a
delay, first for your post to show up, then others to respond. I've
found that its best to check back the next day. Sometimes I don't have
all day to wait.

and to some degree, it is also about the follow up. I'd like to know how
some of my suggested fixes worked out a few months later. maybe some
dude 2 months later redid what I suggested and made a better way..

and its the social factor. It IS a waste of time to post thank you's
(personally, I like the: 'Accepted Answer' moniker shown on Experts
Exchange), and it is networking. You get to know people personally, and
they get to know you.

Individual benefit can sometimes be so hard to explain (that is, unless
you mention the money, then people get it right away

it is definitely not for everyone.

..oh yeah, this isn't limited to Yahoo either, I'm up for Windows
messenger, AIM, or ICQ if needed. (and then there is my friend who likes
Hush Messenger - from Hushmail.com)


so to keep the plug alive, if anyone is interested in using IM as a
programming tool, send me an email.

(e-mail address removed)
-Kevin

 

[Herfried K. Wagner [MVP]]

[...]

.... I agree with most of what you say above...

 

[Richard Myers]

What time zone are in Kevin?
Many of us = [awake/not working] when you = [asleep/having your breakfast] and vice versa.
Which excludes those people from participating... at least in your forum anyway.

Richard

 

[Terry Olsen]

I suppose that I am one of those "least skilled" people. It's such a
Politically Correct term, like the term "least best" that my company
likes to use instead of telling someone that they are the worst.

I have had no "formal" training, as I had already been educated as an
electronics technician. I was a hobbiest programmer on the Apple IIgs
(Pascal & Assembly). Got quite good at it and several of my programs
are still circulating. Since moving to a Windows box in 1996, I have
been re-learning how to program. I'm trying to convince my company to
transfer me to the Software Engineering department as an apprentice or
something entry level. I got into electronics before i'd ever heard of
computer programming. What I liked about electronics was the
self-satisfaction of troubleshooting down to a single component
(resistor, transistor, etc), fixing it, and seeing it come back to life.
Since then, the industry has changed and I became no more than a "module
monkey" with the equipment being able to troubleshoot itself and telling
you which card or module to replace.

Now I find the challenge of creating a useful application very
satisfying. I really appreciate the people in this newsgroup and their
expertise. When I ask a question and get a response, I don't just
"paste" the response into my project and call it good. I try to
understand what is being done and why it works and why what I tried
didn't. The premise of "equalizing skillsets" defeats the whole
purpose. I like the usenet groups in that a diverse crowd lives here.
There will always be someone who knows more than you that can help you
out, and someone who knows less than you that you can help out. I don't
think it is an "absurd waste of human capital" to answer a basic
question. If you have the knowledge and the time to reply, great. If
not, no problem. I'd just hate to be snubbed because I don't have an
[MVP] after my name.

 

[Lucas Tam]

I'd just hate to be snubbed because I don't have an
[MVP] after my name.

Eh no worries... a lot of ppl snub MVPs ; )