long hyphen

[Guest]

there is a behavior that Word has which extends a hyphen followed by text
into a long hyphen. What is this, and how can I control it? I actually like
it, but because I don't know what drives it, cannot always replicate it for
some reason. Is this some sort of symbol it defaults to replacing a regular
hyphen with? Or something else?

Thanks.

 

[Guest]

This happens because AutoFormat as You Type is turned on (look under Tools ->
AutoCorrect). You can get the long hyphen by typing -- in a word.

Andrea Jones
http://www.allaboutoffice.co.uk
http://www.stratatraining.co.uk
http://www.allaboutclait.com

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

If you have the relevant option selected in Tools | AutoCorrect | AutoFormat
As You Type, Word performs the following conversions:

If you type -- (two hyphens) between words with no spaces before or after,
the two hyphens will be converted to an em dash when you type a space or
punctuation following the word after the hyphens.

If you type one or two hyphens betweens words with a space before or a space
before and after, you'll get an en dash instead.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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[Guest]

Hello, how can you make it LONGER than that? is there a way to modify and
control this> thanks Ellen

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

You can insert as many em dashes as needed; see my reply to your related
post elsewhere.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Malcolm Patterson]

This is true, but alas, when you get an en dash in this manner, the space
before the dash remains, which is incorrect (it *must* be removed to
correctly punctuate the document).

An en dash can be inserted with Ctrl+Num- (the minus key in the numeric
keypad)

An em dash can be inserted with Ctrl+Alt+Num-

Both can be inserted using the Insert/Symbol menu's special characters tab.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

The space before and after the en dash are correct for the way it is being
used; in the U.K. a spaced en dash is used where an em dash (without spaces)
is used in the U.S. There is no AutoFormat option that will produce an en
dash between continuous numbers or elsewhere to indicate "to." For that you
have to use a keyboard shortcut; I just find it easier to use keyboard
shortcuts for both dashes all the time.

 

[Malcolm Patterson]

Hmm. If Office were installed on my machine as a British English package, I
could agree with you sometimes--if you were using the en dash in lieu of an
American em dash. OTOH, I think the Brits use the en-dash as we do in America
for spanning a range (closed up), so to me (in the States, where the en dash
is ALWAYS closed up) this is nothing but an annoying bug. My Canadian
neighbors will have to manage their usual balancing act.

Meanwhile, I do as you do: keyboard shortcuts whenever available.

I do wish there were a standard shortcut for the double en space (after
heading numerals and before the heading text) and the thin space (for
footnotes, etc.).

The space before and after the en dash are correct for the way it is being
used; in the U.K. a spaced en dash is used where an em dash (without spaces)
is used in the U.S. There is no AutoFormat option that will produce an en
dash between continuous numbers or elsewhere to indicate "to." For that you
have to use a keyboard shortcut; I just find it easier to use keyboard
shortcuts for both dashes all the time.

 

[grammatim]

In the Bullets & Numbering panes, you can specify the characters
(including spaces) that appear after the autonumbers. "Double en"
should be the same as em space.

Oops, I'm thinking of FrameMaker again, which includes both of
those ...

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

In any case, I would expect double en space to be longer than an em space. I
gauge ordinary spaces, en spaces, and em spaces to be in approximately a
1:2:3 proportion.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

In the Bullets & Numbering panes, you can specify the characters
(including spaces) that appear after the autonumbers. "Double en"
should be the same as em space.

Oops, I'm thinking of FrameMaker again, which includes both of
those ...

 

[grammatim]

You might think so, but see the Chicago Manual p. 828 (glossary) s.v.
em and en.

Ordinary spaces are variable, since the default until fairly recently
was justified text.

FrameMaker also gives you a Numerical space (the width of each digit
in the font, for aligning columns without using right-tabs) and a
Hairspace.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Historically, an en dash/space is the width of a capital N in the given
font, the em dash/space the width of M (hence the names). Pace the Chicago
Manual, I don't know of any font in which an en dash/space is half the width
of an em dash/space.

I am aware that "the space of the line" is variable, but by "ordinary space"
I refer to the width of a space in unjustified text (or of a nonbreaking
space).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

You might think so, but see the Chicago Manual p. 828 (glossary) s.v.
em and en.

Ordinary spaces are variable, since the default until fairly recently
was justified text.

FrameMaker also gives you a Numerical space (the width of each digit
in the font, for aligning columns without using right-tabs) and a
Hairspace.

 

[grammatim]

lowercase.

Historically, an en dash/space is the width of a capital N in the given
font, the em dash/space the width of M (hence the names). Pace the Chicago
Manual, I don't know of any font in which an en dash/space is half the width
of an em dash/space.

I am aware that "the space of the line" is variable, but by "ordinary space"
I refer to the width of a space in unjustified text (or of a nonbreaking
space).

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA


You might think so, but see the Chicago Manual p. 828 (glossary) s.v.
em and en.

Ordinary spaces are variable, since the default until fairly recently
was justified text.

FrameMaker also gives you a Numerical space (the width of each digit
in the font, for aligning columns without using right-tabs) and a
Hairspace.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Maybe. Allowing for the inevitable inaccuracy of screen display, in both
Times New Roman and Arial (at 500% zoom), the en and em dash are closer to
the width of the capital N and M, but the en dash is narrower than N, and
the M dash is wider than M. Also, I must say that at that magnification the
em dash does appear to be twice as wide as the en.

I'm sure it varies a great deal from one font to another. In most fonts a
string of em dashes will be continuous, but in some fonts the em dash is
designed with some space on either side so that a series of them creates a
broken line. Presumably this sort of em dash was designed for use in the UK
where a spaced en dash is preferred.

In any case, if, as the Chicago Manual says, the width of the em is the same
as the nominal font height, then the capital M would come much closer to
being square than the lowercase.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

lowercase.

 

[grammatim]

"Font height" refers to the height of the piece of type rather than to
the height of a letter. In fonts designed to be set closely, there's
minimal clearance between the top of the highest ascender (ascenders
normally are a tad higher than the upper bound of an H or M) or lowest
descender and the edge of the piece of type; in fonts meant to have
"breathing room" without adding leading (a time-consuming procedure),
there'll be more clearance. But an em-quad (i.e., -square) will always
be square -- it'll look like a bigger space in the more "roomy" font.

I got to Chicago a few months after the old handpress used for
printing museum labels -- and for printing texts in Arabic, Syriac,
Coptic, Egyptian hieroglyphs -- was taken out of service at the
Oriental Institute (maybe it was sold for scrap). (The exotic types
went to the University's Printing Department, which did a lot of the
Press's typesetting but used Linotype, and about twenty years later
the Provost, a leading archeologist and former OI director, forbade
them from disposing of the old type.) My first student job was as
research assistant to the Institute's director, so I just missed the
opportunity for hands-on experience with handset type. Museum labels
were done on a Selectric for a number of years. They did _not_ make a
good impression in cases alongside those with older exhibits and hence
older labels.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I do understand what font height is, though of course in the "soft fonts" we
deal with nowadays, with variable amounts of leading built in, it's a little
harder to be aware of. FWIW, my grandfather was a printer and publisher
(Linotype mostly).

I can imagine that typed labels would compare unfavorably with printed ones.
I can actually remember a time when offset printing was compared unfavorably
to letterpress; when our church bulletins made the switch, I could
definitely tell the difference.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

"Font height" refers to the height of the piece of type rather than to
the height of a letter. In fonts designed to be set closely, there's
minimal clearance between the top of the highest ascender (ascenders
normally are a tad higher than the upper bound of an H or M) or lowest
descender and the edge of the piece of type; in fonts meant to have
"breathing room" without adding leading (a time-consuming procedure),
there'll be more clearance. But an em-quad (i.e., -square) will always
be square -- it'll look like a bigger space in the more "roomy" font.

I got to Chicago a few months after the old handpress used for
printing museum labels -- and for printing texts in Arabic, Syriac,
Coptic, Egyptian hieroglyphs -- was taken out of service at the
Oriental Institute (maybe it was sold for scrap). (The exotic types
went to the University's Printing Department, which did a lot of the
Press's typesetting but used Linotype, and about twenty years later
the Provost, a leading archeologist and former OI director, forbade
them from disposing of the old type.) My first student job was as
research assistant to the Institute's director, so I just missed the
opportunity for hands-on experience with handset type. Museum labels
were done on a Selectric for a number of years. They did _not_ make a
good impression in cases alongside those with older exhibits and hence
older labels.

 

[grammatim]

Indeed. My father was in Office Supplies and Printing, and one of his
main products was engraved business cards and letterhead -- I learned
about good printing (as opposed to Fine Print!) early.

My church had mimeographed bulletins from my earliest years, but
Cornell's Sage Chapel went from letterpress to offset either during or
shortly after my senior year.