Lightning and computer?

[w_tom]

If numbers mean something to you, well, for the fifth time:
provide APC UPS specification numbers for each type of
transient. Why do you make claims of APC UPS did protection
(actually performed by the telco provided protector), and then
refuse to even provide those numbers? How many joules in that
APC UPS? When you will even provide one number for your
claims? Where in any post have you once posted any numbers
for protection? Show me. Where are those numbers?

Propaganda: the first thing told is blindly believed.
Humans often do that - ie Weapons of Mass Destruction. Then
when real world facts arrive, that human denies, denies,
denies. Propagandists know this. Get someone to believe the
first thing they are told. That person will be brain
washed. Leythos provides no numbers because he never needed
numbers to 'believe' myths about his APC UPS. Leythos still
posts no specs for that APC UPS even after five direct
requests for those numbers. Why can he not provide the
numbers? That APC UPS does not even claim to provide the
protection that Leythos claims.

Provided in a very first post was a list of responsible
protector manufacturers and two retail sources (Home Depot and
Lowes) for effective protection. The OP is encouraged to
learn that an effective protector makes a short (ie 'less than
10 foot) connection to earth - as stated even in that Telebyte
Reference manual.

 

[w_tom]

Thank you for more insults and still not one number - such
as the manufacturer's specs that claim it does what you claim
it does. Again, the telco installed protector probably did
your protecting. A protector you did not even know exists.
Then you *assumed* protection must have been from something
more expensive; that does not even claim to provide that
protection.

But show me. Prove me wrong. Provide numbers from APC for
each type transient. Leythos cannot. So again he posts
insults. Insults are routine from those who recommend plug-in
protectors - without any numbers. The OP is warned about
those who recommend plug-in protectors. When confronted, they
never even knew what a protector is suppose to do. Somehow,
they just know from birth; and then post recommendations.

Leythos, say this carefully: "I don't need no stink'n
numbers". Its called 'honesty'.

 

[w_tom]

And what protects the dishwasher. The electronic timer
switch for outside lights? The smoke detector? The furnace
controls? The clock radio? Those GFCIs in bathroom and
kitchen? How does she disconnect any of these?

The solution has been long proven and readily available for
about $1 per protected appliance. Manufacturer names were
provided in the first post. Protectors (and if necessary, the
earthing rods and wires) are even sold in Home Depot and
Lowes.

One of the most unreliable protection methods is
disconnecting. It depends on someone who is available, at
best, only 1 hour in 3. And then there are all those other
appliances that cannot be disconnected. With effective
protection, then disconnecting - an unreliable protection
method - need not be performed.

Will static charges from lightning cause damage. If yes,
then all those automobile car radios and cell phones are also
damaged. The direct strike is the destructive transient which
is why protected facilities don't disconnect and always use
'whole house' type protectors connected short to an earth
ground.

 

[Leythos]

If numbers mean something to you, well, for the fifth time:
provide APC UPS specification numbers for each type of transient. Why
do you make claims of APC UPS did protection (actually performed by the
telco provided protector), and then refuse to even provide those
numbers? How many joules in that APC UPS? When you will even provide
one number for your claims? Where in any post have you once posted any
numbers for protection? Show me. Where are those numbers?

Why do you keep stating TELCO, I'm talking about computers connected to a
UPS on one socket in an outlet and a radio (calculator, etc...) connected
to the other socket at the same outlet. The UPS has a printer, computer,
monitor, sound, etc... connected to it). The radio was ruined, the UPS
protected devices were not damaged in any manner.

What do numbers from a vendor have to do with the above experience?

 

[Richard Urban]

Enough already! Maybe it's time for you to take a hike.


Now, do you deny that unplugging the PC is NOT going to protect it, short of
a direct hit on the computer desk.

Why start with your drivel - yet again! We are all so sick of hearing this!

Please!!!! Go away!!!!!!!!!!!


--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[namniar]

While I greatly appreciate the information and points of view given by all,
I agree with Richard. Its time to stop the p*ssing contest!

Maybe you can both agree that neither the properly grounded whole house
approach, nor the UPS is sufficient enough and that both is required for a
properly protected system. Oh yeah, don't forget the off site backups to
complete the trio.


r.

 

[w_tom]

Show us how disconnecting will protect the smoke detector,
dishwasher, clock radio, furnace controls, and burglar alarm
system. You said disconnecting is reliable protection. Show
me. Insults are an admission that you forget those cannot be
protected.

Disconnecting is dependent on a very unreliable human. But
then this too was posted previously and ignored. Richard used
selective reading to misrepresent what was posted. Somehow he
assumes humans are that reliable. That a human will
disconnect everything everyday for 2922 days so that a typical
transient does not cause damage on that last day. Show me a
human that reliable.

Provided is an effective solution for $1 per protected
appliance - complete with brand names and retail sources. A
solution always available - 24/7 - unlike humans. An effective
solution even when using the computer. How does disconnecting
protect a computer in use?

Show me how a human can be so reliable 24/7 to protect
computer, television, VCR, stereo, etc. Show me. Don't get
pissy and emotional; post more insults. Post facts. Show me
how disconnecting by a human will reliably protect all those
appliances. Show me how disconnecting will protect a computer
while in use.

Richard, your problem is with yourself. You don't like
what was posted AND you cannot dispute it. So you misrepresent
what was posted and then post insults. Will you also claim an
APC UPS provides protection that even its manufacturer does
not claim to provide?

Yes unplugging can increase the protection .... if the human
knows in advance when the destructive transient will occur AND
remember to disconnect AND does not use the computer. IOW
disconnecting is ineffective. Both points mean unplugging is
an unreliable solution. When I posted that, why did you
pretended I did not? Did your memory already take that hike?

Susan - effective protection that is well proven, costs
less, is always available, and has been proven even before
WWII is the 'whole house' protector and earthing as required
by National Electrical Code. Plug-in protectors and
disconnecting are unreliable and therefore ineffective
solutions. Posted four days ago were brand names of
responsible protector manufacturers and retail sources for
effective protection.

 

[Richard Urban]

We are talking about the computer. Not the house as an electric chair.
Christ, are you ever so thick!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Richard Urban]

I am not claiming anything about a UPS system. I am not claiming anything
about a whole house ground. Nor am I disputing them. I am just telling you
to go away!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard

If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[Leythos]

Why do you keep stating TELCO, I'm talking about computers connected to
a UPS on one socket in an outlet and a radio (calculator, etc...)
connected to the other socket at the same outlet. The UPS has a printer,
computer, monitor, sound, etc... connected to it). The radio was ruined,
the UPS protected devices were not damaged in any manner.

What do numbers from a vendor have to do with the above experience?

Still waiting on you to explain away how devices connected to a simple APC
UPS were protected while devices connected to the same outlet not on the
UPS were not protected.

What's really funny is watching you rant about how UPS's don't provide any
protection and then being in a building where our floor had no damage to
anything protected by a UPS, not the servers/workstations/networking
hardware, not the monitors/printers/etc... On the floor above and below us
there were numerous damaged devices that were not protected by any UPS
devices. Now, explain that one away too.

 

[w_tom]

Ufer grounding uses rebar inside footing to make an
excellent ground. Some have also used wire mesh in the
concrete basement floor to make that Ufer ground even more
effective. Concrete being a good electrical conductor when
discussing this type of electricity. Further background
provided by:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/towertalk/1997-April/004413.html
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/UferGroundPsi~20030930.htm

Also important is to define during architectural planning
how and where utilities enter. That means even well water
should enter at the common service area. Even underground
cables will carry destructive transients into a building:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf

BTW, often a mountain top is not the most often struck.
Consider the complete circuit from cloud to earth borne
charges some five miles diagonally distant. The shortest
electrical path is three miles down to the mountain, and four
miles through earth to those charges. The electrically
shorter path through mountain is a location farther down the
mountainside where better conductive rock or soil is exposed.

Although cadwelding is most often recommended for Ufer
grounding, some have achieved good results using other bonding
methods. The rebar and concrete make a better conductive path
AND make earth beneath the building equipotential. This
discussed in another thread entitled "Lightning - funny how
we're not seeing him any more". Your intent is to provide
the direct strike with a non-destructive path into rock or
soil that does not pass through building appliances.
Lightning rods may also be desirable. Hope this is useful and
provided in time.

 

[Al Dykes]

Ufer grounding uses rebar inside footing to make an
excellent ground. Some have also used wire mesh in the
concrete basement floor to make that Ufer ground even more
effective. Concrete being a good electrical conductor when
discussing this type of electricity. Further background
provided by:
http://www.psihq.com/iread/ufergrnd.htm
http://scott-inc.com/html/ufer.htm
http://dayton.akorn.net/pipermail/towertalk/1997-April/004413.html
http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/UferGroundPsi~20030930.htm

Also important is to define during architectural planning
how and where utilities enter. That means even well water
should enter at the common service area. Even underground
cables will carry destructive transients into a building:

http://www.erico.com/erico_public/pdf/fep/TechNotes/Tncr002.pdf

BTW, often a mountain top is not the most often struck.
Consider the complete circuit from cloud to earth borne
charges some five miles diagonally distant. The shortest
electrical path is three miles down to the mountain, and four
miles through earth to those charges. The electrically
shorter path through mountain is a location farther down the
mountainside where better conductive rock or soil is exposed.

Although cadwelding is most often recommended for Ufer
grounding, some have achieved good results using other bonding
methods. The rebar and concrete make a better conductive path
AND make earth beneath the building equipotential. This
discussed in another thread entitled "Lightning - funny how
we're not seeing him any more". Your intent is to provide
the direct strike with a non-destructive path into rock or
soil that does not pass through building appliances.
Lightning rods may also be desirable. Hope this is useful and
provided in time.

Interesting information here but, as always, your local building code
tells you what you are allowed to do.

 

[Galen]

In w_tom <[email protected]> had this to say:

My reply is at the bottom of your sent message:

Hope this is useful and
provided in time.

It certainly is both. In regards to lightning being a major concern of mine
it's not really that much of an influence here. My home is partially solar
powered and the line provided power is quite frequently out of service as I
live a long ways away from main roads and people. Mostly my concern was,
initially, the constant spikes and the giant surge that was running through
the house when the service switched from one to the other. The afore
mentioned gadgetry is the cure for this though if grounding more effectively
can be done during the construction phase (slated to begin in August so
plenty of time left) then it's certainly an option I should/will look into,
more so as the room is slated to be a designated computer room with a number
of computers in it. The main question was, and still is, if I were to use
this system of built-in rebar or mesh could the entire house then use that
as the ground as safely and effectively as had it been added in the initial
phase of the original construction?

As for the other post about building codes that's not too much of a problem
here. The town I live in, I think, must only adhere to the State or Federal
guidelines, permits aren't even needed, and there's no actual inspector or
anything or the like. (At least I've never actually gone to get a permit or
anything and I don't know anyone who has though I suspect that they'd frown
on it if we were to build too close to a lake, stream, or put our septic
systems too close but those are State regulations as far as I know.) I dare
say that people wouldn't bother with such things anyhow even if it was
something the town decided to do. More than likely they'd just keep doing
what they were doing and no one would bother checking and no one would
enforce it. Given the mentality of the people in the area I'm not sure that
they'd be quite willing to let them enforce it. They're a rather peaceful
bunch though not too many of them don't have a firearm within reach. <g>
(I'm actually amazed that the area has as little crime as it does with all
these weapons and drinking around, you'd at least expect more accidents. I
guess this is one area of the world where a firearm is still considered a
tool as opposed to a device to make robbery more simple or something to
impress your grade school classmates.)

I suppose that if someone were to build something too dangerous to live in
then the State might step in if they ever got wind of it. I live near, but
not really in, places that have names like Township E or Plantation 117 and
in those places the number of residents is usually in the single digits.
(Though there could be more and they're just not paying taxes nor reporting
where they live.) About the only law enforcement we see in this area are
Game Wardens and they're not really up on current building codes probably.
Heck, they're just as likely to let you go if you're out fishing without a
license or hunting out of season if it's to provide food for your family or
the like. In fact, it's my understanding, that if you're caught and in those
circumstances they're more likely to call on you to pick up fresh road-kill
moose and deer. So, in other words and without the digression, I'm pretty
sure that the local building codes will allow me to do this and if the
contractors know what they're doing I'll probably go ahead and do it though
I'm probably going to call my electrician in to take a peek and to make sure
that everything is squared away.

Galen
--

"And that recommendation, with the exaggerated estimate of my ability
with which he prefaced it, was, if you will believe me, Watson, the
very first thing which ever made me feel that a profession might be
made out of what had up to that time been the merest hobby."

Sherlock Holmes

 

[w_tom]

There would be nothing in building codes that prohibit Ufer
grounds. Ufer grounding does not violate building codes. But
earthing for that new addition must connect back to the single
point ground - ie connect directly to the earth ground rod
outside the breaker box. Nothing electrical within that new
addition could connect directly to that Ufer ground. Ufer
ground must be part of a single point earthing system. And
any wire that connects from that Ufer system to the existing
single point ground must be short, no sharp bends, separated
from all other wires, etc.

IOW if the addition is adjacent to where utility service
arrives, then the Ufer ground would be useful. However if the
addition is at the other end of the building, then a Ufer
ground would have little practical value (in terms of
increased earthing conductivity) other than to make earth
beneath the addition equipotential.

The important point being that the Ufer ground makes a 'less
than 10 foot' connection to the adjacent and existing earthing
point (what the code called a Grounding Electrode). The Ufer
ground being only an enhancement of that single point ground
if the Ufer ground is within the vicinity of that existing
utility earth ground. Otherwise the Ufer ground only makes
earth beneath the new addition equipotential.

When using rebar also as an Ufer ground, then rebar must be
tightly connected. Good interconnection being the only thing
that makes a Ufer ground different from any other steel
reinforced footing. This is where many advocate cadwelding
those steel rods together. Cadwelding or electrically well
connected rods being the only difference.

I have seen where wire mesh is used in concrete floors to
keep settlement beneath the floor from causing cracks. This
wire mesh tied together is not anything different from code
requirements except that the mess would make a connection
(short) to the single point earth ground system. But it too
can contribute in making the floor equipotenial

BTW, wire that connects the Ufer ground to existing single
point ground must be large - as defined by code (typically #4
AWG or even larger. This so that corrosion does not degrade
that interconnecting grounding wire. Electrical code has
specific requirements for this grounding wire, especially when
that wire is buried. Interconnected ground using buried wire
only enhances that earthing system.

I believe one of those previous posts provided numbers for
better understanding the electrical nature of Ufer grounds.

Coordinate any expansion of the earthing system with your
electrician before August. He may have additional suggestions
based upon conditions unique to your venue.

BTW, the name Galen. Was that a knight in King Arthur's
court or a noteworthy 2nd Century physician?

 

[Galen]

In w_tom <[email protected]> had this to say:

My reply is at the bottom of your sent message:

BTW, the name Galen. Was that a knight in King Arthur's
court or a noteworthy 2nd Century physician?

Galen, the Grecian father of medicine, in some spheres most highly regarded
for surgery on the eye and for the idea that the human body could be healed
through outside sources (meaning, specifically, medicine) which was
considered quite advanced thinking at that time. I don't know of a Knight
from Author's Court by the name of Galen but I'm not really up on that sort
of stuff anyhow...

Fortunately the power entry point in the house was to be a problem and I'd
not yet figured out how to solve that yet. I think that this, as an option,
is probably what I'll end up doing as it's not even going to add (from what
I've seen) a great deal of expense to the cost and, to be honest, I'm not
worried about the additional expense anyhow. If it's justified, and it seems
to be, then the additional monies are well spent on something like this.

As an aside it's quite common for both rebar and mesh to be used here. With
the frost heaves being as large and dramatic as they are every spring the
use of mesh is pretty much a standard at this point. Or course so aren't old
bed frames, random scraps of metal, and the like. <g> However the intention
was to use a single layer of mesh and rebar above it. We're setting it down
under the frost line though it won't be a very large basement really it will
also hold additional storage cells for the solar power. I am thinking that I
could also put a WiFi enabled NAS down there as well but that's putting the
cart ahead of the proverbial horse.

Galen
--

"And that recommendation, with the exaggerated estimate of my ability
with which he prefaced it, was, if you will believe me, Watson, the
very first thing which ever made me feel that a profession might be
made out of what had up to that time been the merest hobby."

Sherlock Holmes