Leave your PC running 24/7? Leave your DSL modem always on?

R

RayLopez99

The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night? Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and thetribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it has no moving parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

RL
 
Y

Yousuf Khan

The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night? Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and the tribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it has no moving parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

RL

I always turn my PC off, as long as it's not being used to do something
overnight. I leave the router and cable/dsl modem running all of the time.

I wouldn't say that it doesn't overheat, because it does benefit from an
occasional restart from time to time.

Yousuf Khan
 
P

Paul

RayLopez99 said:
The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night?
Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and the
tribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem
on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it has no moving
parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it
stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

RL

For the PC I switch it off.

Same for ADSL modem/router/switch. In fact, they're all
tied into one power strip, so they can be killed all at
the same time.

Of my little networking boxes, the modem/router and the router, have
no power management. The switch box, is able to power down Ethernet
ports which are not in usage. Which defeats WOL if you're using it.

I keep a fan blowing on the ADSL modem housing, and a second fan
blowing over the "wall of power adapters". The room gets pretty
warm around 5PM.

My original ADSL modem, was low power enough, it could be
ignored. It had a sheet metal enclosure (no plastic) and
ran cool to the touch at all times. The current ADSL modem
is probably in the 10 watt range. And the housing is plastic
on the current ADSL modem. Not really the best trend in
terms of improvements.

I upgrade equipment often enough, it's just as well to save
the electricity by switching them off. I doubt it affects the
lifespan enough, to kill them before upgrade time rolls
around again.

Paul
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

RayLopez99 said:
The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night? Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and the tribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it hasno moving parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

Lack of moving parts doesn't necessarily mean something is more
reliable, especially because of electrolytic capacitors, which vary
greatly in longevity, depending on the quality. For example, my
digital TV converter boxes failed in just 2 years when several of
their Chinese capacitors went bad. In comparison, the old TV one of
them is connected to has needed only 2 new capacitors -- in its 35+
years of life (all Japanese capacitors). DSL modems are similar to
TV converters in that they both contain switching mode voltage
regulators, which can be rough on capacitors, and my DSL modems were
made with cheapo brand capacitors. So maybe it would be a good idea
to disconnect the AC power if it's not used much, and I mean turn off
the power strip/surge protector so the modem's standby power circuitry
doesn't stay on. OTOH a lot of times the standby power fails when
it's turned on, including in computer power supplies.
 
F

Flasherly

The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night? Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and the tribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it hasno moving parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

RL

I've got power strips hooked up to an assignable IR-keyed PWR-ON
cubes;- the cubes also remember their last logical PWR state, IOW,
turn it off and if there's a brown/black out it stays OFF. You can't
find them unless up to direct marketing out of Asia. It's
conceptually a computer I've rigged to turn on as if a television and
its dedicated remote;- simple BIOS switch, PWR-ON computer when power
present to PS unit, and that's all it takes. I also assign them to a
television remote keypad for buttons seldom used. Got the idea when
the logic on my television did actually screw up, and wouldn't come
out of STBY mode when a signal is presented;- now takes it within a
PWR OFF state, and a signal present, to bring it functionally up at
PWR ON. Worked out so well with the Hong Kong cube, I went back
bought some more and set a computer up for one. Could as easily have
been the Logitec remote IR keyboard, though, couple of key presses
from on my ass on a leather couch to turn on/off, flat panel
television, computer, and three or so various 115V audio processing
units.

Sure, I can leave it on and go to sleep to it if I want. Not a
problem.
 
K

KR

The topic of conversation is do you leave your PC running all day and night? Assume it's not part of a server farm. I say no: wastes energy, and the tribology benefits are small. On the other hand, I often do leave my DSL modem on all day and night, since I'm too lazy to turn it off. As it has no moving parts I think that's safe to do, and it does not seem to overheat (though it stays hot, and does not have a "smart power setting".

RL

I leave the ADSL on, and have it on a UPS, as that way you can use the VOIPphone at any time, even in a blackout. Computer is on if it is doing something, other wise off.
 
M

Man-wai Chang

Since I don't have any VPN or VOIP stuff, I always turn off all
computers and peripherals if I need leave home for a whole day. For
short trips (e.g. shopping), I would keep them running.

--
@~@ Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers and magicians is real!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
ä¸å€Ÿè²¸! ä¸è©é¨™! ä¸æ´äº¤! ä¸æ‰“交! ä¸æ‰“劫! ä¸è‡ªæ®º! è«‹è€ƒæ…®ç¶œæ´ (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
 
R

RayLopez99

OTOH a lot of times the standby power fails when
it's turned on, including in computer power supplies.

So if I read correctly, the most likely time for a component to fail is when the power strip is turned on? Is that right? Assume the power strip does not have APS (battery) but is just a cheap Joule surge capacitor whateverthey use in cheap $12 power strips.

If that's what you are saying, since there is a small temporary power spikewhenever you turn on a switch (I think), please let me know as that would argue for not turning on and off the modem power supply, even though it does have a cheap SWITCHING AC TO DC POWER SUPPLY which I think for power spike / power surge purposes is inferior to an old, heavy, oil filled traditional wired up old-fashioned transformer.

RL
 
R

RayLopez99

turn it off and if there's a brown/black out it stays OFF. You can't
find them unless up to direct marketing out of Asia. I

LOL good one Flasherly. I somehow figured either you or Paul would have the most complicated (but failsafe) system set up...

RL
 
P

Paul

RayLopez99 said:
So if I read correctly, the most likely time for a component to fail
is when the power strip is turned on? Is that right? Assume the power
strip does not have APS (battery) but is just a cheap Joule surge capacitor
whatever they use in cheap $12 power strips.

If that's what you are saying, since there is a small temporary power
spike whenever you turn on a switch (I think), please let me know as that
would argue for not turning on and off the modem power supply, even though
it does have a cheap SWITCHING AC TO DC POWER SUPPLY which I think for
power spike / power surge purposes is inferior to an old, heavy, oil filled
traditional wired up old-fashioned transformer.

RL

Let's not get carried away.

Notice that stuff works most of the time ?

How many times have I turned the power on and off here ?

A lot. Several times a day. And I've been sitting in this
chair, way too long.

Has anything blown ?

No.

Have a look through a power supply, and marvel at all the stuff in there.
I bet there's something in there to tame various kinds of transients.
For example, NTCR1 on the upper left, controls current inrush, and
prevents the rectifiers from blowing out. And there are filter components
in there too.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html

And while the ATX supply, can have components like NTCR1, your
typical "oil-filled-transformer-based" kinda supply, has nothing.
Those tend to rely on the single cycle current rating of the
bridge rectifier. Which is a hell of a lot scarier, in terms
of trust.

Paul
 
F

Flasherly

LOL good one Flasherly. I somehow figured either you or Paul would have the most complicated (but failsafe) system set up...

RL

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/universal-ir-remote-controlled-ac-outlet-for-appliances-110v-13147

The front is useless unless you live in Europe for whatever socket
fits into that mess;- iow- one side-panel receptacle for provisionally
a normal 2-pronged cord. Figure on some soldering and a basic think-
through. Also have to dig out the Chinglish translation for
operation: That's somewhere in the user reviewed comments, last I
looked, and would make it nothing short of useless, apparent or
programmable without it. Inside it's what you pay for: one of them,
the backside male socket blades, its contacts electrically were loose
inside, so I simply soldered them better. Worth it, though, for
running a computer in entirety from across a room via IR only. Tits,
actually - 4/5 stars across for me, too.
 
R

RayLopez99

Computers and monitors are powered down if they are not to be used for 4
hours or more. Sometimes shut down for even less than that.

DSL, router, and switch are 24/7 on their own UPS since there are
machines on other floors that might need access.

Don't the DSL, router, and switch overheat? Do you find that they need to be replaced after 3 or 4 years, from being "ON" all day and night? The capacitors 'wear out', see this thread.

Seems the DSL is the weakest link, ironically since they are your conduit to the outside world.

RL
 
F

Flasherly

Don't the DSL, router, and switch overheat? Do you find that they need to be replaced after 3 or 4 years, from being "ON" all day and night? The capacitors 'wear out', see this thread.

Seems the DSL is the weakest link, ironically since they are your conduit to the outside world.

RL

True, especially with the crap CableCo's bundle under rental
proprietary modems. Pull fingernails out to figure their protocols,
though, research modems, and there are alternatives. I came up with
ActionTec, two for the price of many modems, mainland Chinese, green
construction, *much more* resilient to spikes even if lacking a surge
strip or a better UPS. But, the whole thing is pretty much FUBAR, the
way the weasels are worming themselves out from under any regulatory
stance and running up their pricing for packaged deals. Have and have-
nots: Pay their bullshit $200 package deal or fill out a government
form for qualifying yourself as a low income indigent. Now I'm stuck
with two really great modems and not so much as clue when they'll pull
a switch to lower the next big payment boom. ...Bye, bye Internet.
 
L

larrymoencurly

So if I read correctly, the most likely time for a component to fail is when > the power strip is turned on? Is that right? Assume the power stripdoes
not have APS (battery) but is just a cheap Joule surge capacitor whatever
they use in cheap $12 power strips.

If that's what you are saying, since there is a small temporary power spike
whenever you turn on a switch (I think), please let me know as that would
argue for not turning on and off the modem power supply, even though it does > have a cheap SWITCHING AC TO DC POWER SUPPLY which I think for power spike / > power surge purposes is inferior to an old, heavy, oil filled traditional
wired up old-fashioned transformer.

That old-fashioned transformer of yours must be huge to be oil filled. :)

It doesn't matter whether the power supply is connected to a plain power strip or a UPS because normal voltage surges from the AC lines will be absorbed by the line filter built into the power supply. OTOH it does seem that lots of power supplies fail at turn-on, probably because (I'm speculating here -- not an expert) of the higher currents that flow momentarily to charge up its capacitors, but PSUs are supposed to be designed to to withstand that. My main concern is with the awful capacitors used in lots of power supplies, whether the power supplies are separate (wall cube, PSU for a computer) or built-in (all those voltage regulators inside modems, routers, TVs,and monitors), and for those, I'm guessing it's best to turning off the ACwhen they're not used.
 
K

KR

36:42 PM UTC-4, larry moe 'ncurly wrote:
>
> > DSL modems are similar to
> > TV converters in that they both contain switching mode voltage
> > regulators, which can be rough on capacitors, and my DSL modemswere
> > made with cheapo brand capacitors. So maybe it would be a good idea
> > to disconnect the AC power if it's not used much, and I mean turn off
> > the power strip/surge protector so the modem's standby power circuitry
> > doesn't stay on. OTOH a lot of times the standby power fails when
> > it's turned on, including in computer power supplies.
>
> So if I read correctly, the most likely time for a component to failis when > the power strip is turned on? Is that right? Assume the power strip does
> not have APS (battery) but is just a cheap Joule surge capacitor whatever
> they use in cheap $12 power strips.
>
> If that's what you are saying, since there is a small temporary power spike
> whenever you turn on a switch (I think), please let me know as that would
> argue for not turning on and off the modem power supply, even thoughit does > have a cheap SWITCHING AC TO DC POWER SUPPLY which I think for power spike / > power surge purposes is inferior to an old, heavy, oilfilled traditional
> wired up old-fashioned transformer.

That old-fashioned transformer of yours must be huge to be oil filled. :)

It doesn't matter whether the power supply is connected to a plain power strip or a UPS because normal voltage surges from the AC lines will be absorbed by the line filter built into the power supply. OTOH it does seemthat lots of power supplies fail at turn-on, probably because (I'm speculating here -- not an expert) of the higher currents that flow momentarily to charge up its capacitors, but PSUs are supposed to be designed to to withstand that. My main concern is with the awful capacitors used in lots of power supplies, whether the power supplies are separate (wall cube, PSU for a computer) or built-in (all those voltage regulators inside modems, routers, TVs, and monitors), and for those, I'm guessing it's best to turning off the AC when they're not used.


There would be relatively a large "surge" current at start up, when the capacitors charge up, but doubt this is much of a problem in typical PC and consumer supplies.


The reason caps fail in switchmode supplies (excluding the mains filter caps) is the high frequency appearing across them. There are large ripple currents involved, over very short periods, and unless the cap is designed for this (Low ESR) it will overheat, bulge and fail. Same with motherboards. Even caps supposedly designed for this can fail over time.
 
P

Paul

KR said:
There would be relatively a large "surge" current at start up, when the capacitors
charge up, but doubt this is much of a problem in typical PC and consumer supplies.

This is true. And some supplies, the specs actually state what the surge current will
be. It can range from 40 to 80 amps for a short period of time, like a single cycle.
My ATX supply here, causes the lights to flicker when first switched on at the back,
and that's the surge. The transient is too short, for my UPS to declare the event
to be an "overload". So the duration is short.

That is the purpose of NTCR1 on the upper left of this schematic. It is the
inrush limiter, and has a negative temperature coefficient. To work properly,
when you switch off the supply, you should wait 30 seconds for NTCR1 to cool
off. Then, the next time the back switch is energized, the inrush (surge) will
be limited to the stated value in the spec for the supply. Rapidly toggling of
the rear switch, defeats the protective action of NTCR1, and could lead
to a primary side failure. It needs time to cool off.

http://www.pavouk.org/hw/en_atxps.html
The reason caps fail in switchmode supplies (excluding the mains filter caps) is the high frequency appearing across them. There are large ripple currents involved, over very short periods, and unless the cap is designed for this (Low ESR) it will overheat, bulge and fail. Same with motherboards. Even caps supposedly designed for this can fail over time.

There are two reasons for caps to fail.

The first, is engineering. You have to take the ripple current rating of the
application, the expected temperatures into account, then select the right
capacitor or number of capacitors in parallel for the job. The Arrhenius
equation, with curve fitted exponent, helps predict how long the capacitors
will last, as part of the engineering exercise. One capacitor company claims
you can get up to 15 years from an electrolytic capacitor, before the rubber
bung on the bottom of the cap dries out, and with it, the electrolyte.

So the manufacturer thinks they last for 15 years. Less, if they're constantly
being overheated. Life is very short, if they run at 105C all the time.

The second form of capacitor failure, is purely chemical. Billions of bad
capacitors were made, with an electrolyte formula lacking a stabilizer.
Such capacitors will fail after two years, even if the power supply is
sitting on a shelf, cold. The metal corrodes, and juice leaks out the top.
The pH of the electrolyte is wrong. I had an Antec fail that way, in storage,
and there were four caps leaking inside. The capacitors do not need to be
under bias, or in stress, for a "pure chemistry failure". No engineering
equation would predict it. Because it wasn't intended to work that way.

If the chemistry is right, the caps can last a long time. My 440BX motherboard
still works for example, and must be close to 12 years old.

If you abuse a capacitor in an application (remove an OSCON and replace with
a regular electrolytic capacitor), then the capacitor would be out of its
league, and shouldn't last very long. It wouldn't be rated for the ripple.

Paul
 
S

Sjouke Burry

Question from RayLopez:
"Don't the DSL, router, and switch overheat? Do you find that they need
to be replaced after 3 or 4 years, from being "ON" all day and night?
The capacitors 'wear out', see this thread.

Seems the DSL is the weakest link, ironically since they are your
conduit to the outside world."

DSL is a used,reconfigured, SpeedStream (from SW Bell to Bellsouth)
that I got off ebay when the internal used in W95 didn't convert to
98SE. So it has been in continual use for at least 12 years. The Belkin
routers from the same time period (had backup on site) both crapped out
pretty early. Whatever I had next was removed to go wireless several
years later. The switches have all been recycled from customers upgrades
and never have had one fail at home. Can only recall one switch ever
failing in all the stuff I've done, and that was a Cisco with a wall
wart that suddenly couldn't keep power up.
DSL in customer's offices are another story. Probably have replaced a
half dozen or so of several different manufacturers.

My router(Speedtouch) has been online for about 8 years now,
outside temp about 15 degrees above room temp.
 

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