Is my USB wireless keyboard not hot-swappable?

P

Paul

DevilsPGD said:
In message <[email protected]> Barry Watzman


Doesn't the USB interface require hotswapping at an electrical level?

Sure, you'll find cases where the device or driver needs notice to avoid
data loss, or but you're electrically safe to disconnect if needed.

Page 113 of USB20 spec

"The connectors are designed to be hot plugged."

If you pick up a USB flash drive, or even a USB cable,
you can see the outside (+5V and GND) contacts are longer
than the two center data contacts. That is a sign the
connector was designed for hot swap.

The ingredients of hot swap are

1) Ensure power and ground are established, such that
I/O signals are not damaged by phantom voltages coming
from the supply. (Particularly important if the hardware
is powered by -48V and the I/O is a much lower voltage.)
Making the contacts longer on some of the pins is how
you do that. This is just to illustrate what that might
look like. SATA has some pins longer than others, to sequence
what makes contact first, and ensure the sensitive pins
aren't exposed to out of bounds voltages. USB has this too,
if you look at a USB flash stick or USB cable contacts.

http://connector.almita.com.tw/rimages/304/SAAT-connector-02-B.jpg

2) Use "Failsafe" I/O pads, such that if one part of the
hardware loses power, the I/O pads don't provide a
sneak path. The sneak path can be things like diode
protection on I/O pads. The idea is the pads don't
inadvertently draw current when they're not supposed to.

3) Use a hot swap controller for power, to reduce the
transient when hardware is plugged in. USB doesn't
use this, and uses some design rules instead. The
host connector, has 100uF across +5V and ground, to
reduce the amplitude of bus voltage disturbance when
a device is plugged in. The guest device should have only
a small bypass cap used, since that cap needs to be charged
instantly. This kind of issue is detailed in an Intel document.
Failure to guard against the bus transient, can cause the
second USB on a stack to misbehave or have a data glitch.
USB devices are limited to 100mA before negotiation begins,
but that pales in comparison to a 5 amp transient caused
by charging a small capacitor inside the peripheral.

On hardware with major power consumption, and hot swap capability,
they gradually bring up the power on the module. That is
shown in the following document. But USB doesn't do this,
for reasons of economy.

(Hot swap design in a non-computer application. Mentions some issues.)
http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/42-05/hot_swap.html

The kind of I/O you're connecting to, makes a difference as well.
For hub architectures...

Host
/ | \
/ | \
X Y Z

the I/O may be independent of one another. USB works like that. When
something plugs into X, it doesn't disturb Y or Z. PCI Express
is like this too.

For bus based systems, it is much worse.

Host ---+---+---+
| | |
X Y Z

Plugging into "X" with the power on here, could glitch an ongoing
transaction on Y or Z to the host. Pre-charging the data pins to
half-rail before contact, is one solution. In general, this is
a much harder case to solve. Many sleepless nights if you do
something like this. PCI has a bus architecture like this, as
does the VMEBUS. PCI Express, on the other hand, is a hub, and
so doing a hot swap there, wouldn't upset a neighbor.

Designing for hot plug can either be extremely hard (bus based
system) or relatively easy. Getting the connectors right
is part of the battle. As far as I know, PS/2 has all
equal length pins, so there isn't any visible design intent
there for hot swap.

Having the OS recognize a hardware change, is a separate but
important issue. As an example, there are early SATA interfaces
that are quite capable of indicating a new drive is connected,
but because the driver didn't include any code (or maybe a
framework wasn't available to hook to), the hardware can't tell
anybody anything. For an event like that, either you can use an
interrupt, to indicate something has happened on a particular
interface. Or, the OS can poll the hardware at regular intervals,
to check for the presence of new hardware. An interrupt scheme
is preferable if available and if it is reliable.

Paul
 
D

David W. Hodgins

So in other words what you're saying is the PC would have to be
restarted if the keyboard was plugged while Windows was running.

My reading of all of the responses, is to just try it. If the
bios and drivers support hot swapping, it will work. If they
don't, it won't. Either way, there should be no damage done.
In most cases, it will work, but with some hardware/software,
it will not. Easiest way is to find out, is to just try it.

Regards, Dave Hodgins
 
D

David W. Hodgins

I thought all USB devices can be plugged in while the computer is
switched on right?

Most can, even if the manufacturer chooses to cover their butts
in the documentation, to handle those few systems where this
will not work due to old/strange usb controllers.

In many cases, such as printers and scanners, you're specifically
told not to connect it until after installing the supplied
drivers, to prevent windows from selecting some default driver.

Just try it, and see if it works.

Regards, Dave Hodgins
 
A

AdeW

Most can, even if the manufacturer chooses to cover their butts
in the documentation, to handle those few systems where this
will not work due to old/strange usb controllers.

In many cases, such as printers and scanners, you're specifically
told not to connect it until after installing the supplied
drivers, to prevent windows from selecting some default driver.

Just try it, and see if it works.

I will try the wireless keyboard on a newer (someone else's) computer
first.

Infact at the public libary when i've plugged in a camera it says I
need to be an administrator to install hardware, but USB memory sticks
work fine.

The instructions say "Windows 2000/XP/Vista: You do not need to
install software for operation of the mouse and keyboard." Since
public library PCs are WinXP I presume it should work just like a
memory stick and not need to install software hopefully.
 
A

AdeW

They can, but sometimes for the initial install you need to reboot.

Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
bit more complicated than it needs to be.

mh.
--http://www.nukesoft.co.ukhttp://personal.nukesoft.co.uk

From address is a blackhole. Reply-to address is valid.

At home I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off
for over year and half and sat unused) which when i first started
using it this year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped
it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought this usb
keyboard, then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping
back and removing the mouse etc, so then i wondered could i have
mistakenly put the keyboard into the mouse port the first time, I can
never be certain. Should've took a photo.

There has been the a time when my keyboard has stopped working but
only for a few seconds. Must worse is when mouse is behaving
erratically going off in funny directions that i have to restart
Windows - so that would mean its a software problem and not hardware
hopefully. Also when the mouse has misbehaved the return key esd not
working when i press Start then key "u" then attempt to press return,
so then i press Alt F4 to restart my computer.
 
A

AdeW

They can, but sometimes for the initial install you need to reboot.

Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
bit more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off for over
year and sat unused) which when i first started using it this year the
PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot (so couldn't get past scandisk) so I
swapped it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought
this usb keyboard.

Then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping back and
removing the mouse etc, so then i wondered could i have mistakenly put
the keyboard into the mouse port the first time, I can never be
certain.

Should've took a photo.
 
A

AdeW

Why not just follow the instructions? Sounds like you might be making this a
bit more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm using a Win98SE machine at home (had all its connectors taken off
for over year and sat unused) which when i first started using it this
year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped it for another
ps/2 keyboard which didn't work

So i bought this USB wireless keyboard, but then the next day I got
the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping back and removing the
mouse etc.

So then i wondered could i have mistakenly put the keyboard into the
mouse port the first time, I can never be certain.

Should've took a photo.
 
R

Rob

AdeW said:
At home I'm using a Win98SE machine (had all its connectors taken off
for over year and half and sat unused) which when i first started
using it this year the PS/2 keyboard didn't work at boot so I swapped
it for another ps/2 keyboard which didn't work, so i bought this usb
keyboard, then i got the ps/2 keyboard working again after swapping
back and removing the mouse etc, so then i wondered could i have
mistakenly put the keyboard into the mouse port the first time, I can
never be certain. Should've took a photo.

There has been the a time when my keyboard has stopped working but
only for a few seconds. Must worse is when mouse is behaving
erratically going off in funny directions that i have to restart
Windows - so that would mean its a software problem and not hardware
hopefully. Also when the mouse has misbehaved the return key esd not
working when i press Start then key "u" then attempt to press return,
so then i press Alt F4 to restart my computer.

Aha - Windows 98SE. That might be the real issue, as it has very poor
USB support and, AFAIR, needs drivers installing for most, if not all,
USB devices. Under XP and later, it should and probably would 'just work'
(apart from the BIOS issue already addressed in other replies.)
HTH,
 
A

AdeW

Aha - Windows 98SE.  That might be the real issue, as it has very poor
USB support and, AFAIR, needs drivers installing for most, if not all,
USB devices. Under XP and later, it should and probably would 'just work'
(apart from the BIOS issue already addressed in other replies.)
HTH,

I went to the public library and plugged it in and the receiver's
lights went on and the systray popped up saying "USB wireless keyboard
and mouse" "usb composite device" "installed and ready for use" . The
batteries (which i tested on something else) were in the keyboard, I
pressed the reset button on the receiver and its light flashed. Pretty
good so far.

Then pressed the link button on the keyboard but the keys didn't work.
Repeating these several times made no difference. There was no light
on the keyboard since that light is for indicating low battery power.
I even changed the batteries but no difference. Tried it on other
computers, no luck. Even managed to switch off a computer and then
restart that didn't work.
 
R

Rob

Aha - Windows 98SE. That might be the real issue, as it has very poor
USB support and, AFAIR, needs drivers installing for most, if not all,
USB devices. Under XP and later, it should and probably would 'just work'
(apart from the BIOS issue already addressed in other replies.)
HTH,

"I went to the public library and plugged it in and the receiver's
lights went on and the systray popped up saying "USB wireless keyboard
and mouse" "usb composite device" "installed and ready for use" . The
batteries (which i tested on something else) were in the keyboard, I
pressed the reset button on the receiver and its light flashed. Pretty
good so far.

Then pressed the link button on the keyboard but the keys didn't work.
Repeating these several times made no difference. There was no light
on the keyboard since that light is for indicating low battery power.
I even changed the batteries but no difference. Tried it on other
computers, no luck. Even managed to switch off a computer and then
restart that didn't work."

It's a duffer in that case - get it replaced by the supplier.
 

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