Inverted Heat-pipes? Asus x1600xt silent in Lian Li Case

[Bobius]

I have just ordered some new parts to plug the gap between now and a full
new-build machine. I have a Lian Li V1000 Plus case (inverted ATX design),
new mobo and a Asus EAX1600XT Silent graphics card due for delivery
tomorrow. I realised this evening that the X1600XT Silent's heat pipes will
be the wrong way up in my new case.
Will this cause a problem? I have tried searching online and cant find
anything definate. a few references to heat pipes on Mobos, and some that
say some heatpipes will work inverted and some dont. Since BTX case design
has been around for a while i expected to be able to find something.
Any link to a official answer will be much appreciated.

Thank you

 

[Paul]

I have just ordered some new parts to plug the gap between now and a full
new-build machine. I have a Lian Li V1000 Plus case (inverted ATX design),
new mobo and a Asus EAX1600XT Silent graphics card due for delivery
tomorrow. I realised this evening that the X1600XT Silent's heat pipes will
be the wrong way up in my new case.
Will this cause a problem? I have tried searching online and cant find
anything definate. a few references to heat pipes on Mobos, and some that
say some heatpipes will work inverted and some dont. Since BTX case design
has been around for a while i expected to be able to find something.
Any link to a official answer will be much appreciated.

Thank you

To start with, there are some comments in the customer reviews on
Newegg, that suggest even when the card is used normally, cooling
can be an issue. The purpose of placing the fins on the back, is
to use cooling air spilling from the CPU cooler, as the cooling
mechanism. If you put a water block on the CPU, and used the
Asus Silent cooling mechanism, the card would overheat. It still
needs cooling air, but with the convenience of using the air
coming off the CPU cooler.

As a result, the cooling effectiveness depends on the type of
CPU cooler being used. Some CPU coolers are quite directional,
and may not blow a significant amount of air onto the card.
Others exhaust omnidirectionally, so the fins on the video
card will get the air they need. That could account for some
of the comments on Newegg, but I cannot be sure.

In terms of heatpipe performance, it doesn't matter what kind
of heatpipe you've got, working against gravity does not help.
Omnidirectional heatpipes rely on capilliary action, and the
inside finish of the pipe is typically described as "sintered".
The idea is, to have a surface finish with a large surface
area. The liquid condenses and flows by surface tension.
Then it is a battle between the two physical effects, that
determines what percentage of normal performance you will get
when the heatsink is inverted.

You can always retrofit an aftermarket cooler, such as a slot
cooler (air exhausts out the adjacent slot cover). But that
kind of defeats the purpose of buying a heatpipe equipped
card in the first place.

I tried looking for reviews that made some mention of the
heatpipe type, but the reviews are uniformly ignorant of
the pipes. And the Asus product page makes no mention either.

Another thing I notice, is the heatpipes are flattened on the
GPU side of the card. Reducing the cross section of the pipe
never strikes me as being very clever, but I guess the
reason for doing it, is to save on material when it comes
to the thickness of the baseplate used on the GPU.

I suppose you could always install your CD/DVD drive
upside-down in the 5 1/4" bays, then turn the entire
computer case upside-down That should work ))

Paul

 

[BC]

I tried looking for reviews that made some mention of the
heatpipe type, but the reviews are uniformly ignorant of
the pipes. And the Asus product page makes no mention either.

Another thing I notice, is the heatpipes are flattened on the
GPU side of the card. Reducing the cross section of the pipe
never strikes me as being very clever, but I guess the
reason for doing it, is to save on material when it comes
to the thickness of the baseplate used on the GPU.

I suppose you could always install your CD/DVD drive
upside-down in the 5 1/4" bays, then turn the entire
computer case upside-down That should work ))

Paul

Dear Bobius and Paul,

I did notice perhaps a year ago that Maximum PC mounted the A8N-SLI
premium "upside down" in one of their custom builds, and, I never heard
of any issues that resulted from that--they can be pretty harsh, so I
assume they would have made some mention of it had there been a problem
(and I apologize if they did, and I did not read or hear about it....)

In the A8N-SLI premium manual, Asus states clearly:

Page 28, 2.2.1: Placement direction:

"When installing the motherboard, be sure you place it in the chassis in
the correct orientation. The edge with the external ports goes to the
rear part of the chassis as indicated in the image below."

Then, there is a picture of the motherboard "right side up". However,
my A8NX5 manual says the exact same thing, and it has a northbridge fan,
so orientation is not an issue.

The latest heat pipe cooled M2N32-WS owner's manual includes the same
boilerplate, no other orientation information, no mention of "sunny side
up"--

Personally, I am waiting for the "Dippy Bird" heat pipe cooling solution
on a case mod: looks like perpetual motion, increases airflow, but
still very quiet:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question608.htm


I use a Tyan board that has a heat sink, but not heat pipes:

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tomcatk8e.html

The SLI version:

http://www.tyan.com/products/html/tomcatk8esli.html

No upside down mounting issues with this motherboard...


As for the Asus x1600xt Silent: looks like it needs to be GPU down,
heat sink radiator up, as it appears that it runs hot:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?item=N82E16814121548

Perhaps this Gigabyte card, which is more symmetrical, would work better
"inverted"? Also, mentions "powder" type heat pipe, i.e. does not rely
on gravity, works on wicking/capillary action:

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/FileList/NewTech/old_vga_newtech/tech_20051018_silent2.htm

This card also draws its own cooling air, which is, dare I say it, cool.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814125025

It's in the same price range....and gets much better reviews:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?item=N82E16814125025

Also, I sort of think it's better to keep nVidia chipsets and nVidia
GPUs together...drivers have enough issues already without mixing
different strains. However, Gigabyte does make an equivalent x1600xt model:

http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products...GA&ProductID=2155&ProductName=GV-RX16T256V-RH

If you want silent and inverted, I would go with the Gigabyte solution....

HTH,

BC


Some other random heat-pipe links: no definitive answers here.

http://www.heatsink-guide.com/content.php?content=heatpipes.shtml

http://www.cheresources.com/htpipes.shtml

http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?p=3851506#post3851506

Would like to see temp readings from a cooling pipe motherboard regular
and inverted...and regular and inverted video cards...

 

[Paul]

Dear Bobius and Paul,

I did notice perhaps a year ago that Maximum PC mounted the A8N-SLI
premium "upside down" in one of their custom builds, and, I never heard
of any issues that resulted from that--they can be pretty harsh, so I
assume they would have made some mention of it had there been a problem
(and I apologize if they did, and I did not read or hear about it....)

<<snip>>

There have been complaints from people who have inverted A8N-SLI
Premium. For some reason, not everyone has the same results. This
could be due to differences in the fabrication of the heatpipe
(more or less working fluid, wrong internal pressure etc). Some
companies have the devil of a time making consistent heatpipes -
for example, I've heard of early processor coolers, where the
pipes weren't even operational (they were as effective as a piece
of copper pipe). Without a study of a large batch of motherboards,
it is difficult to say how much unit to unit variation there is
in the "goodness" of Asus heatpipes. It is even possible the
heatpipes are not made in house, and for the various Asus products,
they simply contract to different suppliers for the piece part.

In any case, I'd sooner suggest to people, they go to the Asus Estore
and buy the fittings for the Deluxe, and remove the heatpipe before
installing the motherboard inverted. Either that, or do a test
fitting, do a bit of gaming on the thing, and measure the chipset
temperature and see where the surface temp on the block ends up.
If the temp really does hit 75C, chances are the silicon itself is
at 100C+. Here is a sample posting on the topic:

http://discuss.extremetech.com/forums/786232016/PrintPost.aspx

"I noticed that you were using the ASUS motherboard with the
fanless heat-pipe cooling solution for the chipset and
recommended the Lian-Li case that has an inverted motherboard.

I recently upgraded to an ASUS A8N-SLI Premium motherboard
with the fanless heatpipe and had installed it into a Silverstone
case with the same inverted motherboard arrangement.

What I found was that the chipset ran extremely hot when
inverted like this. I measured the top of the heat block on the
chipset at 75C when the motherboard was in the inverted position
- chipset was higher than the cooling fins near the CPU. When I
flipped the case over the heat block on the chipset only reached
50C. This was with the computer idling...

I didn't like running the chipset at 75C+ so I moved to an Antec
P180 case.

I was wondering what your thoughts were on this. ASUS doesn't
state anywhere that I could see that the motherboard needed to
be oriented in any specifc manner..."

If people are having trouble keeping a heatpipe video card stable
in the upright position, the performance of the heatpipe would
have to be damn good, for there to be no measurable change when
it is inverted. The right answer is probably water blocks, plus
enough air cooling to keep disk drives, chipsets, Vcore conversion
all cooled. There are a few video cards being delivered, that
already come with a water block installed, so you don't have to
throw away an original cooling solution and fit your own water
block. With water cooling, and the radiator placed outside the case,
a major amount of internal case heating is avoided.

HTH,
Paul

 

[aaa]

There have been complaints from people who have inverted A8N-SLI
Premium. For some reason, not everyone has the same results. This
could be due to differences in the fabrication of the heatpipe
(more or less working fluid, wrong internal pressure etc). Some
companies have the devil of a time making consistent heatpipes -
for example, I've heard of early processor coolers, where the
pipes weren't even operational (they were as effective as a piece
of copper pipe).

I remember they tried a stereo receiver with heat pipes on the
output transistors way back in the 70's. It didn't last long.

I think it leaked