Internet time server

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jud McCranie
  • Start date Start date
Ray said:
Attack? Sensitive mofo, aren't you!? I stated a fact.


An article from 2001??? Sorry. Not worth much today.

Besides, the OP has clearly stated that the system is usually on 24x7.
Note that in that ancient article you referred to (probably an AT
mobo), clearly states that the CMOS is involved when the computer is
"turned off".

When the system is running 24x7 and is losing time, it's a problem
synching with an online server.


I don't read sigs. They're usually worthless to anyone other than the
owner. They're the "vanity license plates" of the Internet.
===============================
Wow!....Ray Luca. Was it really necessary
for you to disrespect my mother?

Here's an article from 2008:
Time Inaccurate? Change Your Battery
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/archives/006711.html

And here's another directly from Intel...
Inaccurate System Time:
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-002888.htm

--


John Inzer MS-MVP
Digital Media Experience

Notice
This is not tech support
I am a volunteer

Solutions that work for
me may not work for you

Proceed at your own risk
 
John Inzer said:
===============================
Wow!....Ray Luca. Was it really necessary
for you to disrespect my mother?

You've lost me there.
Here's an article from 2008:
Time Inaccurate? Change Your Battery
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/archives/006711.html

And here's another directly from Intel...
Inaccurate System Time:
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-002888.htm

I won't bother to read either one. System time when Windows is
running 24x7 is a Windows issue. Period.

When the computer has been shutdown and disconnected from its power
source, then the CMOS battery is in play.
 
Ray said:
You've lost me there.
=========================
And....I'll leave you there because
this is not worth the aggravation.

--


John Inzer MS-MVP
Digital Media Experience

Notice
This is not tech support
I am a volunteer

Solutions that work for
me may not work for you

Proceed at your own risk
 
John said:
===============================
Wow!....Ray Luca. Was it really necessary
for you to disrespect my mother?

Here's an article from 2008:
Time Inaccurate? Change Your Battery
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/archives/006711.html

And here's another directly from Intel...
Inaccurate System Time:
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-002888.htm

The RTC keeps time for the computer, when the OS is not running.

When the OS is running, time is kept as described in the Intel article
you quoted above. The current time is stored in system memory.
It is incremented, based on "clock tick interrupts". Clock tick
interrupts have a high priority, in an attempt to prevent
other interrupts from preventing the software clock from
being serviced.

The RTC is powered by +5VSB. +5VSB is available for as long as
the switch on the back of the computer is in the "ON" position,
and A.C. is available to the PSU. The OP has stated the system is
on 24/7, which means the system has been line powered for the
interval in question. The CMOS battery is not used, when
+5VSB is available. Some diodes are used for current steering,
to prevent the battery from being loaded.

If the power supply was turned off at the back, or the
computer was unplugged, these would be times that
the RTC would run from battery power. It uses a
few microamps.

The RTC is very similar in design, to the circuit inside
a digital watch. It even uses the same 32768Hz quartz
crystal for timekeeping. (Look for a small metal cylinder,
located next to the Southbridge on the motherboard. Some
newer motherboards use crystals in a different shaped
metal can.)

(Example of a 32768Hz crystal cylinder. Other form factors are possible.)
http://www.reuk.co.uk/OtherImages/quartz-clock-1-sec-timebase.jpg

If Windows is running, then the system is not looking to
the RTC for time information. The time was copied during
boot, and after that, the time is derived from the crystal
which runs the clock generator. The clock generator provides
clock signals of various frequencies, to other components
in the system. The CPU synthesizes its core clock, based on
a signal provided by the clockgen. That is a separate
subsystem from the 32768Hz crystal used to operate the
RTC.

The clock generator quartz crystal, has a tolerance, like
all quartz crystals do. Say the value was +/-100ppm. That
would mean the locally maintained time, using the clock
tick interrupts derived from that clock, would also have
the +/-100ppm drift. That is 1 part in 10000. In a
86400 second day, that would be an up to 8 second drift.
All computers will drift to some extent, because the
tolerance is not that tight.

A clockgen from the P3 era.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060528143740/www.icst.com/pdf/ics9250-08.pdf

This is the clockgen, on my P4C800-E Deluxe motherboard with
Pentium 4 processor. It still relies on an external 14.318MHz crystal.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060528143740/www.icst.com/pdf/ics9250-08.pdf

The 14.318MHz crystal in this picture, is connected to the
clockgen. It is the basic element that determine +/-
drift while Windows is running. If the OS is prevented from
servicing (high priority) clock tick interrupts, that
can contribute to the drift, but presumably only in one
direction of drift.

http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/i/tr/cms/contentPics/t01620010112eje20_01.jpg

This is a picture of the elements involved. The diode-or
is what prevents the CMOS battery from being used, as
long as +5VSB is available. +5VSB is there, as long
as the switch on the back of the power supply is in the
ON position, and A.C. power is available.


+5VSB derived (PSU standby power) ----- diode-or +
+----> RTC <-------- 32768Hz crystal
+3.0V (CR2032 battery --------- diode-or + | usual sloppy tolerance
|
+----------------------------------------------------+
|
| +3.3/+5 running power ------------------------> Clockgen <--- 14.318MHz crystal
| | usual sloppy tolerance
| chipset
| |
| clock_tick_interrupt
| |
| | increment_the_clock
| v
+------- RTC value, copied once, at startup -----> (Windows time)

Some reasons for not using the RTC all the time

1) Interface to it is dog-slow. Not good for high precision.
2) Crystal runs at 32768 hertz, so the clock would not do a good
job of timing microsecond events.
3) A low frequency crystal is used, so when the battery is the
power source, only a few microamps are needed. Battery life
is around 3 years, if no other power is available, such as
when you store a computer in your garage.

In the above diagram, the 14.318Mhz crystal used, might suggest
the computer cannot time intervals tighter than 1/14.318MHz. The
reason that is not true, is because some of the timing elements
in hardware, time using a synthesized higher frequency clock.
The tolerance of the synthesized clock, tracks the originating
crystal. It means you can have timing measurements at bus clock
frequency, for example. The processors now, have several kinds
of timers and the like, which I've lost track of. So some pretty
small time interval events can be measured. But they should be
tracing their drift, to the source crystal.

Other peripherals have "private crystals". Some peripheral chips
need their own frequency reference, and choose not to use
synthesis from the master clockgen. But the output of these crystals,
is intended to make a particular hardware interface work at a
precise frequency, and not be a time source for software.
An example might be a crystal on a SATA controller, to set
the SATA cable datarate precisely. In this example, there
is a 25Mhz crystal next to the SIL3112. Some Ethernet PHY
interfaces do things like this as well.

http://www.thg.ru/mainboard/20021111/images/asus-sata.jpg

HTH,
Paul
 
John said:
... Here's an article from 2008:
Time Inaccurate? Change Your Battery
http://blogs.pcworld.com/tipsandtweaks/archives/006711.html

'A battery stores a PC's CMOS settings, time and date, ...'
'A dying battery confuses the settings.'
After having written that drivel, that author should replace his
own battery. "PC World's Free Whitepapers" - worth every penny.
And here's another directly from Intel... Inaccurate System Time:
http://www.intel.com/support/motherboards/desktop/sb/CS-002888.htm

'...turn off the system. After a specific time period (ex: 3 hours) ...'
'This applies to: Intel Desktop Board ...'
For a laptop PC you would also need to disconnect the main battery.
'Date Created: 2002' - technical bits
'Last Modified: 2009' product list

Ray said:
I won't bother to read either one.

Neither should anyone else.
System time when Windows is running 24x7 is a Windows issue. Period.

Also an issue for the hardware raising those timer-tick interrupts,
but the state of the battery is not relevant here.
When the computer has been shutdown and disconnected from its
power source, then the CMOS battery is in play.

Which is what both articles said, but not in so many words.

It would really be nice if software people would stop reading
whitepapers about hardware, and then giving their uninformed
opinions about how hardware actually works.
 
If you click on the time, there is a tab "internet tab" with an
"update now" button. I have three time servers listed (two NIST and
time.windows.com) , but with each of them I get "server not available.
Are there some time servers which are available?

The problem appears to lie within the Windows capability. I just tried
using it with the NTP server ntp0.cornell.edu, which failed. However, I
have a non-Microsoft application (SocketWatch) that synchronizes my PC
clock; it successfully used ntp0.cornell.edu within the past few minutes.

Further, I used a different non-Windows application (Cyberkit) with the
NTP server time.windows.com successfully just now.

SocketWatch is available at <http://www.locutuscodeware.com/>. Cyberkit
is, unfortunately, no longer being distributed by its author; a search
on that name should locate third-party sources. See my
<http://www.rossde.com/internet/int_tools.html> for further information
about both of them.

--

David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Don't ask "Why is there road rage?" Instead, ask
"Why NOT Road Rage?" or "Why Is There No Such
Thing as Fast Enough?"
<http://www.rossde.com/roadrage.html>
 
Jud,
Some others (servers) you can use with the 'Internet Time' tab of
the 'Date and Time Properties API, as some are more reliable, over a period,
than others:

time-a.nist.gov
time-b.nist.gov
ntp.asql.co.uk
chronos.csr.net
 
Jud,
Some others (servers) you can use with the 'Internet Time' tab of
the 'Date and Time Properties API, as some are more reliable, over a period,
than others:

time-a.nist.gov
time-b.nist.gov
ntp.asql.co.uk
chronos.csr.net

Yes, I got time-b to work, but some others would not work.
 
Yes, I got time-b to work, but some others would not work.

That's a major reason why I use SocketWatch. It polls five servers from
a list of about 100. It then rates the responses. The server with the
best (lowest) score is used to adjust my PC clock.

Any server that fails to respond is removed from the list of five and
sent to the bottom of the list of 100 with a very high (bad) score. The
next time SocketWatch operates it replaces the removed server from the
fifth position on the list of 100 (the top four already being in the
list of five).

A record is kept of each server's latest score, with the initial score
of 0. Servers in the list of five might also be removed even if they do
respond, by having a score higher (worse) than the server in the sixth
position on the list of 100. The list of 100 is kept in sequenced in
ascending order of the scores, placing servers that have never been used
(score = 0) at the top.

--

David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Don't ask "Why is there road rage?" Instead, ask
"Why NOT Road Rage?" or "Why Is There No Such
Thing as Fast Enough?"
<http://www.rossde.com/roadrage.html>
 

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