installing hard drive (in case) kills it!

[Matt Garman]

I just got my *fifth* Western Digital wd1200jb hard drive via RMA.
Because I've been through so many hard drives, I decided it wasn't worth
the trouble to install the hard drive completely in the computer case.
Instead, I just set it on the shelf my computer sits on, connected
cables, and left the door to my case off.

This drive has been working fine for several days. I've developed a
fairly rigorous testing procedure to be able to tell if one of these is
going to die on me or not. This one performed admirably.

I decided it was time to put it in the case. Believe it or not, the
drive started experiencing problems as soon as the OS booted! I used
the same cables, same power connector, everything, just mounted the
drive in my case. Based on this, and the fact that this is the fifth
consecutive drive that has been problematic, I think it's fair to assume
that there's something in my case causing the problems.

Here's the specs on this machine:

- Case: Antec Sever Tower PLUS 1080 AMG
- Mobo: Gigabyte 7ixe4
- Proc: Athlon Thunderbird 1 GHz w/Coolermaster Aero 7+ HSF
- Video: Matrox Millenium I (PCI)
- Tekram dc-390u2w SCSI card
- Two PCI ethernet cards (can't remember make/model)
- Other drives include a Maxtor Atlas 10k II 18 GB SCSI drive,
a Pioneer SCSI DVD-ROM, and a Yamaha SCSI CD-R

My two thoughts are (1) I used the "wrong" screw holes or over-torqued
the screws or (2) there is some kind of EM interference in my case.
However, (1) is unlikely, as I've installed many a hard drive in my day,
and (2) is unlikely since the SCSI drive works fine. I can't think of
what else would be causing the problems!

Any thoughts or ideas, comments or otherwise are appreciated!
Matt

 

[philo]

I just got my *fifth* Western Digital wd1200jb hard drive via RMA.
Because I've been through so many hard drives, I decided it wasn't worth
the trouble to install the hard drive completely in the computer case.
Instead, I just set it on the shelf my computer sits on, connected
cables, and left the door to my case off.

This drive has been working fine for several days. I've developed a
fairly rigorous testing procedure to be able to tell if one of these is
going to die on me or not. This one performed admirably.

I decided it was time to put it in the case. Believe it or not, the
drive started experiencing problems as soon as the OS booted! I used
the same cables, same power connector, everything, just mounted the
drive in my case. Based on this, and the fact that this is the fifth
consecutive drive that has been problematic, I think it's fair to assume
that there's something in my case causing the problems.

Here's the specs on this machine:

- Case: Antec Sever Tower PLUS 1080 AMG
- Mobo: Gigabyte 7ixe4
- Proc: Athlon Thunderbird 1 GHz w/Coolermaster Aero 7+ HSF
- Video: Matrox Millenium I (PCI)
- Tekram dc-390u2w SCSI card
- Two PCI ethernet cards (can't remember make/model)
- Other drives include a Maxtor Atlas 10k II 18 GB SCSI drive,
a Pioneer SCSI DVD-ROM, and a Yamaha SCSI CD-R

My two thoughts are (1) I used the "wrong" screw holes or over-torqued
the screws or (2) there is some kind of EM interference in my case.
However, (1) is unlikely, as I've installed many a hard drive in my day,
and (2) is unlikely since the SCSI drive works fine. I can't think of
what else would be causing the problems!

Any thoughts or ideas, comments or otherwise are appreciated!
Matt

check to be sure the case is grounded properly

 

[Shep©]

check to be sure the case is grounded properly

I've had this happen with as floppy drive.When I put a second securing
screw in it wouldn't work.No real rhyme or reason for it.Putting a the
screw in another hole fixed it but still don't know why as the screw
did not enter the floppy drive as I could see it :/
As you say,and I believe(just like car electrics) that it was a bad
ground to the case from the floppy bay.
Note:
I once had a Mini that had two earth straps to the chassis and it
still grounded through the brake wire when you tried to start it and
melted the pvc casing of the brake cable!!!
Fitted a 3rd and all was well.Weird tings deese electricals :/



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[JAD]

This has one of those removable HD tray? those can have a problem with grounding....a little 'strap' between it and the case may
fix it

 

[user]

I just got my *fifth* Western Digital wd1200jb hard drive via RMA.
Because I've been through so many hard drives, I decided it wasn't worth
the trouble to install the hard drive completely in the computer case.
Instead, I just set it on the shelf my computer sits on, connected
cables, and left the door to my case off.

This drive has been working fine for several days. I've developed a
fairly rigorous testing procedure to be able to tell if one of these is
going to die on me or not. This one performed admirably.

I decided it was time to put it in the case. Believe it or not, the
drive started experiencing problems as soon as the OS booted! I used
the same cables, same power connector, everything, just mounted the
drive in my case. Based on this, and the fact that this is the fifth
consecutive drive that has been problematic, I think it's fair to assume
that there's something in my case causing the problems.

Here's the specs on this machine:

- Case: Antec Sever Tower PLUS 1080 AMG
- Mobo: Gigabyte 7ixe4
- Proc: Athlon Thunderbird 1 GHz w/Coolermaster Aero 7+ HSF
- Video: Matrox Millenium I (PCI)
- Tekram dc-390u2w SCSI card
- Two PCI ethernet cards (can't remember make/model)
- Other drives include a Maxtor Atlas 10k II 18 GB SCSI drive,
a Pioneer SCSI DVD-ROM, and a Yamaha SCSI CD-R

My two thoughts are (1) I used the "wrong" screw holes or over-torqued
the screws or (2) there is some kind of EM interference in my case.
However, (1) is unlikely, as I've installed many a hard drive in my day,
and (2) is unlikely since the SCSI drive works fine. I can't think of
what else would be causing the problems!

Any thoughts or ideas, comments or otherwise are appreciated!
Matt

Make sure the screws you use to mount the HD from the side are not too
long. Some HDs have the PWB not far from where those screws enter the
case of the HD, and if the screws are too long they could short or
damage the PWB.
If that is not the problem, I would suspect a flaky cable for the IDE
bus. You could be experiencing an open conductor that only appears when
the cable is bent a certain way. Try another IDE cable.
Also, make SURE that all components (MB, PS, other drives etc.) are
grounded to the case. You could be picking up some noise from an
un-grounded device.

Ken

Ken

 

[Matt Garman]

Make sure the screws you use to mount the HD from the side are not too
long. Some HDs have the PWB not far from where those screws enter the
case of the HD, and if the screws are too long they could short or
damage the PWB.

My case (Antec PLUS 1080 AMG) has two hard drive "cages" that come out
easily via a lever. The bottom cage is where I have my other hard drive
mounted (Quantum Atlas 10k II SCSI); if I mounted the Western Digital in
there, it caused the problems. I moved the Western Digital to the upper
cage (which hold my floppy drive), and thus far, it appears to be
working.

Another poster suggested that maybe the cage isn't grounded properly.
This may be the problem, although the SCSI drive has worked and
continues to work flawlessly. Although, the SCSI drive could be
*causing* the problems.

The other interesting this is the lower cage has a fan clip. Mounting
drives in this cage causes them to stick out a bit more than when using
the top cage. In other words, I'm using at least two different screw
holes on the Western Digital in the upper cage.

If that is not the problem, I would suspect a flaky cable for the IDE
bus. You could be experiencing an open conductor that only appears
when the cable is bent a certain way. Try another IDE cable.

I haven't tried different cables on *this* drive, but I did on the other
four drives, and it never made a difference. I also have a Promise PCI
IDE card that I used to verify that the problem wasn't the motherboard's
built-in IDE controller.

Also, make SURE that all components (MB, PS, other drives etc.) are
grounded to the case. You could be picking up some noise from an
un-grounded device.

At this point, I'm pretty sure the problem is grounding related.
Another poster suggested using a "strip" to make sure the cage is
grounded to the chasis of the case. What kind of strip would this be?
I may also try to use a different power cord.

Thanks!
Matt

 

[user]

My case (Antec PLUS 1080 AMG) has two hard drive "cages" that come out
easily via a lever. The bottom cage is where I have my other hard drive
mounted (Quantum Atlas 10k II SCSI); if I mounted the Western Digital in
there, it caused the problems. I moved the Western Digital to the upper
cage (which hold my floppy drive), and thus far, it appears to be
working.

Another poster suggested that maybe the cage isn't grounded properly.
This may be the problem, although the SCSI drive has worked and
continues to work flawlessly. Although, the SCSI drive could be
*causing* the problems.

The other interesting this is the lower cage has a fan clip. Mounting
drives in this cage causes them to stick out a bit more than when using
the top cage. In other words, I'm using at least two different screw
holes on the Western Digital in the upper cage.




I haven't tried different cables on *this* drive, but I did on the other
four drives, and it never made a difference. I also have a Promise PCI
IDE card that I used to verify that the problem wasn't the motherboard's
built-in IDE controller.




At this point, I'm pretty sure the problem is grounding related.
Another poster suggested using a "strip" to make sure the cage is
grounded to the chasis of the case. What kind of strip would this be?
I may also try to use a different power cord.

Thanks!
Matt

I agree, your problem might well be noise generated either by the SCSI
drive or some other device such as your PS. Remember there is an
oscillator in the PS that is used to generate the voltages and a HD
motor is an inductive device.

As for what type of strip, I would think he means a wire or some other
conductor tied to the cage and to ground. You can also shield the HD
from noise generated by the SCSI drive by installing a metallic screen
(such as window screen), or piece of sheet metal between the noise
generator and the device being effected. This shield would of course be
grounded to the case.

Ken

 

[philo]

At this point, I'm pretty sure the problem is grounding related.
Another poster suggested using a "strip" to make sure the cage is
grounded to the chasis of the case. What kind of strip would this be?
I may also try to use a different power cord.

Thanks!
Matt

in addition to making sure the ground pin on your AC plug is really
grounding
all of the case ...be sure to verify that the ac outlet on your house is
really grounded!

be sure to use an ohmmeter or continuity tester

also use a bit of caution as for all you know the ground pin might be "hot"

 

[Strontium]

-
(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:

Matt Garman wrote:
Make sure the screws you use to mount the HD from the side are not too
long. Some HDs have the PWB not far from where those screws enter the
case of the HD, and if the screws are too long they could short or
damage the PWB.
If that is not the problem, I would suspect a flaky cable for the IDE
bus. You could be experiencing an open conductor that only appears
when the cable is bent a certain way. Try another IDE cable.
Also, make SURE that all components (MB, PS, other drives etc.) are
grounded to the case. You could be picking up some noise from an
un-grounded device.

Take motherboard, off that list. If the motherboard is grounded, to the
case, you will not power up. Period.

 

[user]

-
(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:




Take motherboard, off that list. If the motherboard is grounded, to the
case, you will not power up. Period.

If you are implying that the mother board is not grounded anywhere on
the MB, you are mistaken. Not only is the MB grounded (or should be) at
the power connectors, but often they are grounded via the standoffs used
to fasten them to the case.

If you mean a location that should NOT be grounded on the MB IS
grounded, then you will probably be correct in that there is a
possibility that it could cause an overload to the PS and the power
might not come up. That of course depends upon where the short is.

Ken

 

[Strontium]

-
(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:

If you are implying that the mother board is not grounded anywhere on
the MB, you are mistaken. Not only is the MB grounded (or should be)
at the power connectors, but often they are grounded via the
standoffs used to fasten them to the case.

Not true. The standoffs do not supply grounding. Lay the motherboard
directly on the case inside and try to power up. Those standoffs serve a
purpose. It ain't grounding. If you insist that the motherboard is
grounded, by the standoffs,please explain the use of plastic standoffs, as
well... Last time I checked, plastic was more of an insulator rather than
conductor.

If you mean a location that should NOT be grounded on the MB IS
grounded, then you will probably be correct in that there is a
possibility that it could cause an overload to the PS and the power
might not come up. That of course depends upon where the short is.

Seeing as OP is not an electrician, it was a given (at least, to myself)
that they would not have knowledge of where or how the motherboard is in
fact grounded. My reply was very direct, to your statement.

 

[.Aba]

check to be sure the case is grounded properly

How good a ground is having it on a shelf? What are theos 2 black
wires in the molex for?

 

[.Aba]

in addition to making sure the ground pin on your AC plug is really
grounding
all of the case ...be sure to verify that the ac outlet on your house is
really grounded!

be sure to use an ohmmeter or continuity tester

also use a bit of caution as for all you know the ground pin might be "hot"

No question that ground is very important. As I type this though, I
have a drive or a pci controller conflict issue so I'm running my C
drive on a seperate wood table top with 2 plastic pens under it for
air circulation. Done this a lot and never a hiccup. I run several 3
bay hard drive units on a seperate shelf from the pc with no problems.
(Good PSU) Not being an engineer I'd guess the ground in the molex
does the job.

A guess on the problem at hand, might the screws holding the drive or
another device be squeezing the drive tightly creating a bind
internally?

 

[user]

-
(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:




Not true. The standoffs do not supply grounding. Lay the motherboard
directly on the case inside and try to power up. Those standoffs serve a
purpose. It ain't grounding. If you insist that the motherboard is
grounded, by the standoffs,please explain the use of plastic standoffs, as
well... Last time I checked, plastic was more of an insulator rather than
conductor.

MOST mother boards have some mounting holes that have a copper plating
surrounding the hole. When this occurs, it (the copper clad of the PWB)
is often electrically ground. Certainly if you use an insulator (i.e.
plastic standoff) to mount a mother board with a grounded hole area to
the case, the insulator will not electrically provide that ground. That
does NOT mean however that the area surrounding the hole is not
grounded. Often it is internally grounded through the ground plane of
the PWB.

Plastic standoffs are used mostly in areas of the MB where there is a
danger of shorting adjacent traces of the PWB to ground if a metal
standoff were used. Also, they are often used in conjunction with slots
in the case to ease the mounting of the MB into the case. Since even
the layout of the traces on a PWB are often re-routed in an effort to
minimize the effect of electrical noise, a good ground of that PWB can
often make the difference between problems and none.

Feel free to mount your MB any way you want.

Ken

 

[Strontium]

-
(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:

MOST mother boards have some mounting holes that have a copper plating
surrounding the hole. When this occurs, it (the copper clad of the
PWB)
is often electrically ground.

I hate to break it, to you...But that's not copper plating, that they use.
I would like you to provide some technical documentation, links,
whitesheets, whatever, regarding what you are stating. I'm not into the
'I'm right, you're wrong' kind of thing. I'm always learning. I would
really like to know where you get this information, for my own benefit,
yours, and the rest of the group.

Certainly if you use an insulator (i.e.
plastic standoff) to mount a mother board with a grounded hole area to
the case, the insulator will not electrically provide that ground.
That does NOT mean however that the area surrounding the hole is not
grounded. Often it is internally grounded through the ground plane of
the PWB.

Plastic standoffs are used mostly in areas of the MB where there is a
danger of shorting adjacent traces of the PWB to ground if a metal
standoff were used. Also, they are often used in conjunction with
slots
in the case to ease the mounting of the MB into the case. Since even
the layout of the traces on a PWB are often re-routed in an effort to
minimize the effect of electrical noise, a good ground of that PWB can
often make the difference between problems and none.

Feel free to mount your MB any way you want.

Don't worry. I do.

<snip>

 

[Gary W. Swearingen]

(e-mail address removed) stood up at show-n-tell, in
[email protected], and said:

I hate to break it, to you...But that's not copper plating, that
they use. I would like you to provide some technical documentation,
links, whitesheets, whatever, regarding what you are stating. I'm
not into the 'I'm right, you're wrong' kind of thing.

Strontium, your first sentence makes a lie of your last statement.
Notice that you also did not "provide some technical documentation,
links, whitesheets, whatever, regarding what you are stating".

I'm always
learning. I would really like to know where you get this
information, for my own benefit, yours, and the rest of the group.

I just tested an old MB and the grounds of the power connectors are
electrically connected to the metal surrounding the mounting holes.

Scraping a layer off the metal sorrounding a mounting hole shows the
copper color of the underlying MB plating. If it's not copper, what
do you think it is and why do you think so?

 

[Strontium]

-
Gary W. Swearingen stood up at show-n-tell, in
(e-mail address removed), and said:

Strontium, your first sentence makes a lie of your last statement.
Notice that you also did not "provide some technical documentation,
links, whitesheets, whatever, regarding what you are stating".

I don't have any documentation. Which is why I asked you, for some.

I just tested an old MB and the grounds of the power connectors are
electrically connected to the metal surrounding the mounting holes.

Well, then. I've learned something new, today.

 

[Shep©]

-
Gary W. Swearingen stood up at show-n-tell, in
(e-mail address removed), and said:



I don't have any documentation. Which is why I asked you, for some.


Well, then. I've learned something new, today.

Of course.Not to listen to bullshit



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[Overlord]

If any of the soldered leads from components on the motherboard ground
to the case it is called shorting. Thus the need for standoffs in
some form or fashion.

Not true. The standoffs do not supply grounding. Lay the motherboard
directly on the case inside and try to power up. Those standoffs serve a
purpose. It ain't grounding. If you insist that the motherboard is
grounded, by the standoffs,please explain the use of plastic standoffs, as
well... Last time I checked, plastic was more of an insulator rather than
conductor.

Uh... there are specific holes for grounding the mb thru the
standoffs. Most often they are ringed by little blobs of solder.
Anymore, if you buy a mb mounting kit, they include metal standoffs
that closely resemble the little 6 sided studs that your serial cables
and such screw into.
At one time in the distant past there was a hot electrical engineering
debate as to the wisdom of allowing multiple ground lines, and the
possibility of different potentials between them, as opposed to a
single or at the most 2 grounding points on the mb.
None the less, these days the underside of the head of the screws
holding down the mb are Supposed to contact those solder blobs to
ground the mb thru the stud to the case.
Plastic standoffs are still used tho they provide physical/mechanical
support. I always get as much physical support as I can for 5 and 6
layer motherboards particularly around the PCI slots and RAM slots to
keep the board from flexing when installing anything.
I have seen motherboards that flexed so badly that you couldn't
completely seat a PCI card in it. The mb would flex sometimes all the
way down to the side of the case and the bracket on the card would
prevent it from following the slot down far enough to bottom out in
the slot.
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