InCD + Second Copy Problems (UDF expert needed!)

[Jim]

I have a bit of strange problem, maybe someone has an idea.

Windows XP Pro SP1
Lite-On LDW-451S DVD-+R/RW CD-R/RW combo drive (GSB7 firmware)
Nero InCD 4.2.4.1
Second Copy 6.2.0.37 ( http://www.centered.com/ )

I use Nero InCD and a CD-RW work disc (formatted UDF) so I can use my
optical drive like a big floppy drive. I then run Second Copy as a
background process to periodically copy important data elements from the C:
drive to the UDF disc. All in all, it works fine. It provides a simple
means to keep a running backup of my important data in case of catastrophic
failure of my HD. Second Copy is also smart enough to only do incremental
backups as necessary, so the biggest "hit" is on initial setup.

Strange thing, though. Every once in a while, Second Copy will come down
with all errors, reporting "disk full". When I check the drive Properties,
it indicates a used value of 500MB (I assume its capacity is less than 700MB
due to UDF overhead) and free space of zero. But this isn't true, the
amount of data actually on the disk is nowhere near its 500MB capacity!

At this point, I right click the optical drive in Windows Explorer, select
InCD format, and basically start all over. I then immediately run Second
Copy and all my data from the C: drive is copied again, normally! Used
space reports 281MB, free space reports 218MB. Proving my point, the Second
Copy operations that just resulted in exhausting the UDF disk prior to
reformatting, are easily copied to the newly formatted disc, error free, and
only slightly exceed half the disc's capacity.

I don't get it? What's going on here? Why suddenly, out of the blue, after
running weeks and weeks, boom, the disc reports full? As I mentioned
initially, Second Copy only does incremental updates to the InCD disc, so
there isn't a *lot* of updating on a day to day basis, but there's always
some. This cycle repeats over and over and over, every few 6-8 weeks or so.

I'm stumped, I don't know if the problem is w/ Second Copy, InCD, or even
the optical drive. I've had this problem for a very long time, a couple
years at least, and simply tolerated it (since I had a workaround). But I'd
like to fix the problem. Btw, I had a Lite-On 52246S CD-RW drive that had
the same problem, so I don't think it's the optical drive itself. I suspect
InCD is the problem, the UDF disc "session" (not sure this applies, but it's
the best description I can provide) is being "closed" and then no more
writing is allowed, at least until I reformat it and start over. I say
"closed" because when burning a normal CD-R/RW disc, you can have less than
full capacity and prevent further writing by closing the session. I know
UDF is different, but the behavior is sort of like that. I'm wondering if
maybe UDF "collects" data of some sort, from write to write?, a log?
tracking info? Something that would account for slow, steady exhaustion of
the CD-RW disc? And then when I reformat it, all that is erased and I start
anew, again slowing exhausting the CD-RW disc with this "overhead" until the
next time?? I'm just speculating, but that's what it seems like.

Any help would be appreciated.

TIA

Jim

 

[John R. Sellers]

I don't get it? What's going on here? Why suddenly, out of the blue, after
running weeks and weeks, boom, the disc reports full?

I've had the same problem.

According to Alex Nichol, packet writing is not a reliable technique if the
disks are to be re-written often.

 

[Jim]

Thanx, at least I'm not alone or doing something wrong, that's some
concilation. But "it's not reliable" begs the question, why? I mean,
there's has to be something that explains what's happening.

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I'm frankly not impressed w/ *any* of
this optical storage crapola, not the medium, not the drives, not the
applications. I think it's basically a confusing, unreliable, annoying
mess, and anxiously await its ultimate demise. Unfortunately, we face yet
another round of this nonsense as we enter the era of "dual layer" medium
and drives, oh vey, I can't wait.

Anyway, thanks!

Jim

 

[NetNut]

Hi Jim,
I find a couple 500mb usb Flash drive very quick an efficient for quick
transfers and short term back-ups.
They are up to 1g now and the prices are coming way down.
The NetNut

 

[Harry Ohrn]

While I am not certain if this is the problem you are running into the
answer to your question about why aren't CD-R/W and packet writing all that
reliable has to do with the way data is written to rewriteable. You see the
TOC (table of contents) is being re-written over and over again. This action
of constantly rewriting the TOC is a major cause of problems.

 

[John R. Sellers]

While I am not certain if this is the problem you are running into the
answer to your question about why aren't CD-R/W and packet writing all that
reliable has to do with the way data is written to rewriteable. You see the
TOC (table of contents) is being re-written over and over again. This action
of constantly rewriting the TOC is a major cause of problems.

Well, I was gonna say that the UDF file system starts to break down cuz of
repeated re-writes, but your explanation seems a lot more valid.

 

[Alex Nichol]

Strange thing, though. Every once in a while, Second Copy will come down
with all errors, reporting "disk full". When I check the drive Properties,
it indicates a used value of 500MB (I assume its capacity is less than 700MB
due to UDF overhead) and free space of zero. But this isn't true, the
amount of data actually on the disk is nowhere near its 500MB capacity!

At this point, I right click the optical drive in Windows Explorer, select
InCD format, and basically start all over. I then immediately run Second
Copy and all my data from the C: drive is copied again, normally! Used
space reports 281MB, free space reports 218MB. Proving my point, the Second
Copy operations that just resulted in exhausting the UDF disk prior to
reformatting, are easily copied to the newly formatted disc, error free, and
only slightly exceed half the disc's capacity.

I don't get it? What's going on here? Why suddenly, out of the blue, after
running weeks and weeks, boom, the disc reports full? As I mentioned
initially, Second Copy only does incremental updates to the InCD disc, so
there isn't a *lot* of updating on a day to day basis, but there's always
some. This cycle repeats over and over and over, every few 6-8 weeks or so.

My guess would be that Second Copy is not overwriting files, but writing
new copies with some small name modification, so that the old ones are
still present (and occupying space) but not normally visible. This
would allow it to provide a 'restore earlier version' as a safeguard.
But that is a guess

 

[Andy]

I'm stumped, I don't know if the problem is w/ Second Copy, InCD, or even
the optical drive. I've had this problem for a very long time, a couple
years at least, and simply tolerated it (since I had a workaround). But I'd
like to fix the problem. Btw, I had a Lite-On 52246S CD-RW drive that had
the same problem, so I don't think it's the optical drive itself. I suspect
InCD is the problem, the UDF disc "session" (not sure this applies, but it's
the best description I can provide) is being "closed" and then no more
writing is allowed, at least until I reformat it and start over. I say
"closed" because when burning a normal CD-R/RW disc, you can have less than
full capacity and prevent further writing by closing the session. I know
UDF is different, but the behavior is sort of like that. I'm wondering if
maybe UDF "collects" data of some sort, from write to write?, a log?
tracking info? Something that would account for slow, steady exhaustion of
the CD-RW disc? And then when I reformat it, all that is erased and I start
anew, again slowing exhausting the CD-RW disc with this "overhead" until the
next time?? I'm just speculating, but that's what it seems like.

Any help would be appreciated.

I used to experience the same problem with InCD using just drag and
drop. Since switching to Sonic DLA, I have not had the problem with
either CD-RW or DVD+RW disks.

 

[NobodyMan]

I have a bit of strange problem, maybe someone has an idea.

Windows XP Pro SP1
Lite-On LDW-451S DVD-+R/RW CD-R/RW combo drive (GSB7 firmware)
Nero InCD 4.2.4.1
Second Copy 6.2.0.37 ( http://www.centered.com/ )

I use Nero InCD and a CD-RW work disc (formatted UDF) so I can use my
optical drive like a big floppy drive. I then run Second Copy as a
background process to periodically copy important data elements from the C:
drive to the UDF disc. All in all, it works fine. It provides a simple
means to keep a running backup of my important data in case of catastrophic
failure of my HD. Second Copy is also smart enough to only do incremental
backups as necessary, so the biggest "hit" is on initial setup.

Strange thing, though. Every once in a while, Second Copy will come down
with all errors, reporting "disk full". When I check the drive Properties,
it indicates a used value of 500MB (I assume its capacity is less than 700MB
due to UDF overhead) and free space of zero. But this isn't true, the
amount of data actually on the disk is nowhere near its 500MB capacity!

At this point, I right click the optical drive in Windows Explorer, select
InCD format, and basically start all over. I then immediately run Second
Copy and all my data from the C: drive is copied again, normally! Used
space reports 281MB, free space reports 218MB. Proving my point, the Second
Copy operations that just resulted in exhausting the UDF disk prior to
reformatting, are easily copied to the newly formatted disc, error free, and
only slightly exceed half the disc's capacity.

I don't get it? What's going on here? Why suddenly, out of the blue, after
running weeks and weeks, boom, the disc reports full? As I mentioned
initially, Second Copy only does incremental updates to the InCD disc, so
there isn't a *lot* of updating on a day to day basis, but there's always
some. This cycle repeats over and over and over, every few 6-8 weeks or so.

I'm stumped, I don't know if the problem is w/ Second Copy, InCD, or even
the optical drive. I've had this problem for a very long time, a couple
years at least, and simply tolerated it (since I had a workaround). But I'd
like to fix the problem. Btw, I had a Lite-On 52246S CD-RW drive that had
the same problem, so I don't think it's the optical drive itself. I suspect
InCD is the problem, the UDF disc "session" (not sure this applies, but it's
the best description I can provide) is being "closed" and then no more
writing is allowed, at least until I reformat it and start over. I say
"closed" because when burning a normal CD-R/RW disc, you can have less than
full capacity and prevent further writing by closing the session. I know
UDF is different, but the behavior is sort of like that. I'm wondering if
maybe UDF "collects" data of some sort, from write to write?, a log?
tracking info? Something that would account for slow, steady exhaustion of
the CD-RW disc? And then when I reformat it, all that is erased and I start
anew, again slowing exhausting the CD-RW disc with this "overhead" until the
next time?? I'm just speculating, but that's what it seems like.

Any help would be appreciated.

TIA

Jim

You'd be better off posting in a group that deals with Nero, or even
CDR(w) burning in general. UDF writing/reading is not native to XP
and is off topic here. You'd get more help elsewhere.

 

[John R. Sellers]

You'd be better off posting in a group that deals with Nero, or even
CDR(w) burning in general. UDF writing/reading is not native to XP
and is off topic here. You'd get more help elsewhere.

Agreed. Try alt.comp.cdr.

 

[John R. Sellers]

Agreed. Try alt.comp.cdr.

Wait! You might get better help in alt.comp.hardware. The cdr ng doesn't
look promising.