I seriously doubt Xbox 360's ability to do 1080p

[AirRaid Mach 2.5]

http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html

To try to get to the bottom of this situation, IGN contacted Microsoft
and asked a few tough questions. Plenty of questions remain -- we're
waiting to hear even more from the company -- but here's what we have
so far.

IGN: Will games begin to be developed with 1080p as the native
resolution, or is the 360's new 1080p support an advance in the
console's internal scaling abilities?

Microsoft: If developed, the Xbox 360 will support playback of native
1080p games and all existing Xbox 360 titles can be up-scaled to 1080p.

IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.

IGN: There are very few 1080p native HDTVs that accept 1080p via
Component connections. The signal will only come in as 1080i and be
de-interlaced back to 1080p. How is the 360's new 1080p support, in
practical application, going to be any different than what was already
possible?

Microsoft: We can offer 1080p support through both the VGA connection
and the Component connection.

IGN: Could Microsoft theoretically release an HDMI dongle-cable like
the various other cables already available for the console? Is the
current 360 hardware able to output a digital signal, or is it
restricted to analog?

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is
compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's
not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will
continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

Microsoft's current response doesn't yet explain how the company can
rectify its claimed support of 1080p with the fact that the 360 doesn't
support the connection (HDMI) that will actually allow most 1080p HDTVs
to display the signal. While the VGA solution may work for a minority
of 1080p HDTV owners, we're left wondering if Microsoft is promoting
this new 1080p capability primarily to blunt the onslaught of the
PlayStation 3, which supports HDMI and 1080p. Direct information
regarding whether or not the current X360 hardware is able to output a
digital signal would clarify the entire situation, but Microsoft hasn't
been able to answer this question.

Back in the days before the 360 launched, Microsoft stated that HDMI
wires for the Xbox 360 would be released "when the market called for
them." If the Xbox 360 is really going to be a 1080p machine, we're
pretty sure the market is calling for HDMI wires right now. The next
question is whether Microsoft will hear it.
_______________________________________________




this question and non-answer was especially telling


IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.


....................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component,
HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native
resolution to begin with........

I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the
bandwidth constraints.
the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec)
the internal bandwidth EDRAM><Processing Logic of the second graphics
chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not
help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p.


the Xbox 360 is at heart, a 720p machine with the ability to do 1080i
also, but the software upgrade for 1080p seem very hollow.

 

[Zomoniac]

Microsoft: Xbox 360 supports HD Component video output, which is
compatible with nearly every HD ready TV on the market today. That's
not yet true for HDMI. We are watching the market closely and will
continue to evaluate our solution, in the face of consumer demand.

Isn't the minimum requirement for a TV to carry the HD Ready sticker
that it supports 720p AND HDMI??

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't
allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't
actually display HDTV.

So by definition, that statement makes no sense.

 

[Jason Viers]

IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.

Note the article's been updated

IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: *updated* Yes, the Xbox 360 has the necessary internal
bandwidth between CPUs and graphics processors to move a full 1080p image.

 

[Paulo De Souza]

Cos those little 23" Samsung HDs that are in the 360 demo pods aren't

allowed to say HD Ready, since without HDCP over HDMI they can't actually
display HDTV.

Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a HDTV
image.

 

[Martin Linklater]

this question and non-answer was especially telling


IGN : Does the Xbox 360 have the internal bandwidth between CPUs and
graphics processors necessary to move a full 1080p image? There's a big
difference between 1080i and the 3GB/s of 1080p.

Microsoft: No Comment.

3GB/sec is a trivial bandwidth for CPU->GPU hardware. That's not a
problem at all.

...................it doesn't matter what cables are (VGA, component,
HDMI) if a machine isn't capable of rendering true 1080p native
resolution to begin with........

I question the ability of the Xbox 360 to do true 1080p knowing the
bandwidth constraints.
the main external bandwidth in Xbox 360 is pretty low (22.4 GB/sec)
the internal bandwidth EDRAM><Processing Logic of the second graphics
chip is very high (256 GB/sec) but that might not
help the Xbox 360 hit 1080p.

I'm not an XBox360 dev but I'd say the major problem for the getting
the 360 to do 1080p in games will be graphics mem. Bandwidth is
something the 360 has plenty of. Once you up your screen buffers to
1080p you need a serious amount of graphics memory - 8MB for colour
buffer, 8MB for 32bit Z-buffer.

Now I'm not sure about how clever the 360 GPU is and whether it does
fancy tiled z-buffer stuff, but you can rest assured than any new title
which wants to use proper 1080p in game is going to have to make some
sacrifices somewhere. The 360 only has 10MB of 'proper' graphics
memory, so there are going to have to be some clever multi-pass or
tiling techniques needed to get 1080p in game. MS do seem to have been
able to coax 1080p out of the graphics chip but that doesn't mean that
it can do it without a fair few compromises.

As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support
the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an
HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for
the current hardware.

But like I say, I'm not privvy to the internal developer info regarding
the 360, so I could ba talking rubbish...

 

[Zomoniac]

Don't know about the sticker or anything but HDTV is anything that can
display a 720p
picture. So anything with 1280x720 resolution or higher can output a
HDTV image.

Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV,
which means HDCP.

 

[Tom Scales]

Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which
means HDCP.

I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37"
Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's
certainly HD Ready.

What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it?

 

[nicely toasted]

Yup, but for a TV to be HD Ready it has to be able to display HDTV, which
means HDCP.

What a load of bollocks. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to
the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching
HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...

 

[Zomoniac]

I don't follow that. Why does it have to have HDCP? I have a 37"
Westinghouse that does 1080p and plays my HD content just fine. It's
certainly HD Ready.

What in the world does HDCP or HDMI have to do with it?

You can't view HDCP protected tv broadcasts, ie all HD broadcasts,
without HDCP, which is only supported by HDMI and a few DVI ports. So a
TV like the Samsung 23", whilst it's HD resolution and will play 360
games and HD-DVDs at HD res, is not allowed to carry the HD Ready logo,
because it can't display HDTV broadcasts, due to it only having
analogue connections through VGA and Component.

Annoyingly I can't find an example as 6 months ago, as you may be
aware, Samsung changed all their product line, and the new 23" models
have HDMI and carry the badge. If you can find anywhere selling the old
model, the one that is in the 360 demo pods, you'll see it doesn't have
HDMI and doesn't carry the HD Ready badge.

(by the way, I notice this has been crossposted. The ruling stating
that only HDCP support sets can carry the badge is a UK thing, where
I'm from, so if you're posting from a US group and your rules are
different, this may explain the confusion)

 

[Zomoniac]

What a load of bollocks. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your
theory to the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are
currently watching HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...

I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK
you can't get HDTV without HDCP.

 

[Doug Jacobs]

As for HDMI I doubt the 360 has the encryption logic onboard to support
the standard. There's nothing stopping MS producing a new 360 with an
HDMI connector, but I seriously doubt you'll see an HDMI connector for
the current hardware.

Couldn't they do this in software and then just output the signal out the
existing A/V port? Sure, you'd need a 360<->HDMI cable (more money for
Microsoft!) but at least it'd be a solution for the existing 360s.

Down the road when they integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360, I don't
see why they couldn't rev the hardware to include proper HDMI support as
well. I would just have to wonder if the performance difference between
the old 360s, and these theorhetical HD-360s would be noticable or not.

 

[Chris F]

Couldn't they do this in software and then just output the signal out the
existing A/V port? Sure, you'd need a 360<->HDMI cable (more money for
Microsoft!) but at least it'd be a solution for the existing 360s.

Down the road when they integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360, I don't
see why they couldn't rev the hardware to include proper HDMI support as
well. I would just have to wonder if the performance difference between
the old 360s, and these theorhetical HD-360s would be noticable or not.

i very much doubt it, as a tiny percentage of HDTVs out there
currently support 1080p anyway.

the whole thing is basically just MS taking the piss out of Sony, as
they claimed the PS3 would be the only console offering 1080p.

 

[Chris F]

What a load of bollocks. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to
the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching
HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...

no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution
capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as
being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that
the set is "futureproof"

we have a 42" LG Plasma tv, it has CVI, component and VGA inputs, but
because its a few years old, lacks HDMI, so isn't deemed HDTV Ready,
despite it being capable of displaying a High Definition analogue
picture (ie the 360)

 

[Doug Jacobs]

What a load of bollocks. HDTV does not mean HDCP. Try telling your theory to
the hundreds of thousands of HDTV owners around that are currently watching
HDTV on their telly that does not support HDCP...

Not to mention all the sets that were sold BEFORE HDCP was even decided
upon. In fact, have the details been decided upon yet? I thought it was
still up in the air with regards to things like the broadcast flag and all
that junk.

 

[Doug Jacobs]

no, he's right, if a tv does not boast a HDMI port and a resolution
capable of displaing at least 720p, it can't be "officially" badged as
being HDTV ready in the UK, which is basically a way of showing that
the set is "futureproof"

Ah, that's the problem. The US has no such labeling. At least, not
anymore. I seem to recall early sets from maybe 3-4 years ago saying they
were "HD Ready", which meant they didn't have any internal tuners - they
were just a display.

 

[Doug Jacobs]

i very much doubt it, as a tiny percentage of HDTVs out there
currently support 1080p anyway.

the whole thing is basically just MS taking the piss out of Sony, as
they claimed the PS3 would be the only console offering 1080p.

Of course I'm assuming your display can handle 1080p - otherwise, it's a
moot point if the console can do it or not.

But yes, the announcement seemed designed to take the wind out of Sony's
sails.

 

[Chris F]

Ah, that's the problem. The US has no such labeling. At least, not
anymore. I seem to recall early sets from maybe 3-4 years ago saying they
were "HD Ready", which meant they didn't have any internal tuners - they
were just a display.

aye, its just a consumer information thing more than anything else, so
you can tell if its up to spec without having to examine the
back/bottom of the set beforehand.


doesn't stop some places from trying to sell what they claim are
HDTV's though, but which are just LCD flatscreen televisions.

i remember seeing one the other day, billed as "The UK's Cheapest LCD
HDTV".....and when you check the specs, it has a native res of 850*480
or some such, making it SD, not HD.

some places are honest, and don;t label them as HDTVs, but it doesnt
stop them pushing them through their advertising as if they were,
which is where the problem lies really.

the general public doesnt have a clue about resolutions or what have
you, they see a flat screen lcd/plasma telly, they just assume it is
up to spec, which can lead to a lot of disappointed people when they
realise they can only display a 480p signal max!

 

[Doug Jacobs]

aye, its just a consumer information thing more than anything else, so
you can tell if its up to spec without having to examine the
back/bottom of the set beforehand.

It's a problem in the US since most people just assume "big screen ==
HDTV". In fact, WalMart announced it would be carrying a line of
inexpensive HDTVs - however when you actually examine them, they're just
large screen SDTVs (like your LCD example). Most of them weren't even
capable of 480p. To their credit they did have 1 true HDTV - but it was
$1400 for some wacky brand no one's heard of. You could get a better set,
at the same size, for about the same amount of money at Costco.

But again, it's pretty commonplace for stores and companies to take
advantage of uneducated consumers. And even if the government tries to
regulate labels and such, the companies still try to exploit loopholes, or
use other deceptive practices.

 

[nicely toasted]

I presume you're an American then, and have different rules. In the UK you
can't get HDTV without HDCP.

Actually no, I'm in Australia.

 

[stopdropandroll]

I promise you'll still have fun at 720 p. Dont be dumb.

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