How to tell if MOBO got zapped w/static?


M

Machine Messiah

I found a Shuttle AB60R mobo at a local store for $28 bucks. It should
work with a P4 Northwood 400 fsb cpu. I tried a 2.4 400 fsb celeron with
1 stick of pc3200 ram. Board refused to post. Swapped the Celeron into
current pc ,(Abit IS10) and it worked fine. Swapped the P4 2.2 400 fsb
from Abit board into Shuttle board, still no post. Tried the ram in all
4 slots, still no post. Tried 2 different power supplies, no joy.
Cleared the cmos, removed the battery, same result. Fans fire up, lights
on the board come on. When I remove the cpus they are still cool. It's
obvious they haven't powered up.
If the board had been damaged by static would the lights and fans still
come on?
If the ram was the wrong type wouldn't I still get some sort of sound
from the mobo? I seem to recall 1 mobo squawking mightly when I
installed the ram incorrectly.
I think I just bought a board with a dead cpu socket.
Any way to tell for sure?
 
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P

philo

Machine Messiah said:
I found a Shuttle AB60R mobo at a local store for $28 bucks. It should
work with a P4 Northwood 400 fsb cpu. I tried a 2.4 400 fsb celeron with
1 stick of pc3200 ram. Board refused to post.

<snip>

if the bag was sealed when you bought it ...the board is not likely to have
been static damaged.
if the bag was open..chances are the board is bad
and you need to return it for a refund!
 
J

Jan Alter

When it comes to diagnosing if a mb has bellied up from static I'm not aware
of any clues from my reading that would indicate that response from any
posts on this NG or reading I've done. What makes you think it may have died
from static?
There are lots of reasons why a board won't post besides static. Any
number of things could be bad, such as a ground to the case or a
northbridge or southbridge chip could be fried. If the mb doesn't sense a
HSF connected nothing will happen. There could be a short in the board
itself that keeps current from continuing where needed. Some boards come out
of the box bad, so you could indeed be the receiver of one. It seems as if
you have been pretty thorough. Have you tried clearing the cmos by moving
the jumper or taking out the battery and then trying again?

Good luck,
 
M

Mike Walsh

If you power up with no RAM installed you should be a beep code for no RAM detected; assuming there is a beeper on the motherboard.
 
K

kony

I found a Shuttle AB60R mobo at a local store for $28 bucks. It should
work with a P4 Northwood 400 fsb cpu. I tried a 2.4 400 fsb celeron with
1 stick of pc3200 ram. Board refused to post. Swapped the Celeron into
current pc ,(Abit IS10) and it worked fine. Swapped the P4 2.2 400 fsb
from Abit board into Shuttle board, still no post. Tried the ram in all
4 slots, still no post. Tried 2 different power supplies, no joy.

Is it possible you forgot to plug the 12V 4-pin connecter
into the board?

Are both power supplies proven viable for this system load?
Generic or low wattage PSU might not be sufficient.
Cleared the cmos, removed the battery, same result. Fans fire up, lights
on the board come on. When I remove the cpus they are still cool. It's
obvious they haven't powered up.

Examine the board carefully with a strong light. I would've
expected the CPU VRM circuit to be working if you have the
12V plug, plugged in. You might take voltage readings, to
the left of the CPU socket there is a row of caps, then two
inductors one above the other in a row- the two middle
inductors, not the one nearer the 12V socket and not the
bottom one. Use a long probe to measure voltage the lower
of those two inductors, at the base of it's leg when it goes
through the motherboard, at the solder junction. If you
have no idea what I mean, it's probably beyond your
abilities and best to not worry about it.

If the board had been damaged by static would the lights and fans still
come on?

Yes, usually, but it's a bit premature to only suspect
static damage, as any number of things could cause this.

Unsupported CPU, otherwise logically damaged bios firmware,
a crack in the board, manufacturing defect, and other things
that don't come to mind at the moment. What is the history
of this motherboard? Was it new? Sealed in box?
Previously working? Tested? Pulled from a working system?

If you have the option to return it to the shop for money
back, just do that.
If the ram was the wrong type wouldn't I still get some sort of sound
from the mobo?

Possibly, but not necessarily.
I seem to recall 1 mobo squawking mightly when I
installed the ram incorrectly.
I think I just bought a board with a dead cpu socket.
Any way to tell for sure?

I doubt it's the socket, they're usually pretty sturdy and
sufficiently low-tech enough that they don't start out bad,
but I suppose a flaw could arise in any part, nothing is
100.00% perfect.

I assume you have a video card in it?
Try a PCI card instead if you have one handy. If it's
mounted in a case, pull it out and put it on a
non-conductive surface to test, not anti-static packaging.
 
M

Machine Messiah

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:24:44 -0500, Machine Messiah
Is it possible you forgot to plug the 12V 4-pin connecter
into the board?
No. Tried 2 PSUs too.
snip
Are both power supplies proven viable for this system load?
Generic or low wattage PSU might not be sufficient.
snip
300, 350 watts. Am currently using a 500 watt PSU
Examine the board carefully with a strong light. I would've
expected the CPU VRM circuit to be working if you have the
12V plug, plugged in. You might take voltage readings, to
the left of the CPU socket there is a row of caps, then two
inductors one above the other in a row- the two middle
inductors, not the one nearer the 12V socket and not the
bottom one. Use a long probe to measure voltage the lower
of those two inductors, at the base of it's leg when it goes
through the motherboard, at the solder junction. If you
have no idea what I mean, it's probably beyond your
abilities and best to not worry about it.
Can you use 7 function voltmeter?
There is a yellow plastic thing on the board that seems bent.
Don't think I should try that myself. I have a friend I can ask.
Yes, usually, but it's a bit premature to only suspect
static damage, as any number of things could cause this.
snip
I was just wondering how a zapped board would behave.
Unsupported CPU, otherwise logically damaged bios firmware,
a crack in the board, manufacturing defect, and other things
that don't come to mind at the moment. What is the history
of this motherboard? Was it new? Sealed in box?
Previously working? Tested? Pulled from a working system?

I think it was a return. The box wasn't sealed and was missing the
istallation disk and a couple other things. Usually they lable such
items "tested, works". This one wasn't. It was the last 478 socket board
they had. I just wanted to replace my mATX board with an ATX.
snip
If you have the option to return it to the shop for money
back, just do that.

I might get a credit. I only paid $28. Some places online still sell
this board for $150
Possibly, but not necessarily.
snip
I was wondering if I needed to put blanks in empty slots.
snip
I doubt it's the socket, they're usually pretty sturdy and
sufficiently low-tech enough that they don't start out bad,
but I suppose a flaw could arise in any part, nothing is
100.00% perfect.

I assume you have a video card in it?
Try a PCI card instead if you have one handy. If it's
mounted in a case, pull it out and put it on a
non-conductive surface to test, not anti-static packaging.
How 'bout an antistatic mat?
I was trying to power it up with a pci card, cpu,1 stick of ram just so
I look at the cmos/bios. I was hoping I could put a 533 or 800 FSB
Northwood in it. My current board only handles 400 FSB.
 
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M

Machine Messiah

When it comes to diagnosing if a mb has bellied up from static I'm not aware
of any clues from my reading that would indicate that response from any
posts on this NG or reading I've done. What makes you think it may have died
from static?
There are lots of reasons why a board won't post besides static. Any
number of things could be bad, such as a ground to the case or a
northbridge or southbridge chip could be fried. If the mb doesn't sense a
HSF connected nothing will happen. There could be a short in the board
itself that keeps current from continuing where needed. Some boards come out
of the box bad, so you could indeed be the receiver of one. It seems as if
you have been pretty thorough. Have you tried clearing the cmos by moving
the jumper or taking out the battery and then trying again?

Good luck,
Thanks for the reply.
Yeah I tried removing the battery clearing the cmos a couple of times.
I examine it with a magnifying glass next.
I was just wondering how a board wrecked by static might behave.
 
K

kony

No. Tried 2 PSUs too.
snip
snip
300, 350 watts. Am currently using a 500 watt PSU

That's not what I asked.
Are they known adequate?
Wattage tells us nothing, a generic 400-500W PSU can easily
be insufficient for a P4 system. Usually not, but such is
the nature of them, there is variability in the accuracy of
the rating. Perhaps you do know they're adequate but only
you have this box in front of you.


Can you use 7 function voltmeter?

Sure, set it to a range giving greatest resolution at 20V
and below (varies per meter) for best results, but *any*
range giving a reading is sufficient to indicate power.
There is a yellow plastic thing on the board that seems bent.
Don't think I should try that myself. I have a friend I can ask.

I'm afraid "yellow plastic thing" isn't quite descriptive
enough to provide much of a clue... I pulled up a picture
but I"m not even 100% sure it's the same board. Anyway, on
the pic there's not much that's yellow but for a few jumpers
and a fuse down at the bottom of the board, it'd be thin and
square or rectangular shaped. It's ok if that is bend some
but it shouldn't be bend down so much that it's hitting any
other components on the board and shorting out against them.

snip
I was just wondering how a zapped board would behave.

Depends on what was zapped.
It could fry chips, scramble or damage the EEPROM. It could
indeed cause a board not to post, but my point was that
without seeing the cause, then effect, it would be difficult
to presume it was ESD damage even though that is one
possibility.
I think it was a return. The box wasn't sealed and was missing the
istallation disk and a couple other things. Usually they lable such
items "tested, works". This one wasn't. It was the last 478 socket board
they had. I just wanted to replace my mATX board with an ATX.
snip

If it was an untested return, seems quite possible the
former user had same problem you're having now. Return it
to them ASAP, as some sellers will balk at accepting returns
if you wait too long.

I might get a credit. I only paid $28. Some places online still sell
this board for $150

Why a credit? If there was a guarantee of any kind you
should get $ back, then if they have something else, respend
the $.


snip
I was wondering if I needed to put blanks in empty slots.
snip

Not for DDR memory.
How 'bout an antistatic mat?

No, do not use anything antistatic. Antistatic, by
necessity, conducts electricity and it can (has been
observed several times) to prevent a board from POSTing or
working properly. It wouldn't generally damage a board, but
I wouldn't consider that impossible either.
I was trying to power it up with a pci card,

PCI video card?
Just wanting to be clear that it must have a video card,
which is obvious enough to most people but every now and
then someone asks, so I mention it anyway.
 
W

w_tom

Board should sound with only CPU, power supply, and
speaker. No memory, keyboard, peripherals, or video
controller. If at least some basic motherboard functions are
working, the speaker will beep.

There is no magic answer for a zapped board. Virtually
every symptom of failure that has ever been seen can be
created by a static damaged board.
 
M

Machine Messiah

snip
That's not what I asked.
Are they known adequate?
Wattage tells us nothing, a generic 400-500W PSU can easily
be insufficient for a P4 system. Usually not, but such is
the nature of them, there is variability in the accuracy of
the rating. Perhaps you do know they're adequate but only
you have this box in front of you.
Hmm...
Not quite sure what you mean here.
I'm currently using a 500 watt Aspire Concord PSU to run:
Abit IS10 mATX mobo intel chipset, I don't recall which one.
2.2 gig P4, 400 fsb.
2 slots w/1 gig pc3200 ram each.
ATI Radeon 9600 XT AGP video card.
Chaintech AV710 8 pci sound card.
1 80 gig IDE HD
1 120 gig SATA HD
1 160 gig SATA HD
1 zip 100 IDE drive
1 liteon dvd burner
1 cd rom.
1 floppy drive.
I have thrown out 2 PSU's after they've stopped powering the floppy
drive on some other pcs.
Surely 300 to 350 watts is enough to power 1 mobo with 1 cpu, stick of
ram, pci video card. There's nothing wrong with the PSU's, I've checked.
I don't recall who made them but I assure you they aren't generic.
I don't like noisy PSU's, I buy good ones. What are the odds that BOTH
PSU's are insufficient for this task?
I'm not building a pc, I'm simply trying to power up a mobo.
snip
I'm afraid "yellow plastic thing" isn't quite descriptive
enough to provide much of a clue... I pulled up a picture
but I"m not even 100% sure it's the same board. Anyway, on
the pic there's not much that's yellow but for a few jumpers
and a fuse down at the bottom of the board, it'd be thin and
square or rectangular shaped. It's ok if that is bend some
but it shouldn't be bend down so much that it's hitting any
other components on the board and shorting out against them.

LOL. I didn't think that would help, Sorry.
I have a friend I can show your message to. He'll know where to look.
snip
If it was an untested return, seems quite possible the
former user had same problem you're having now. Return it
to them ASAP, as some sellers will balk at accepting returns
if you wait too long.



Why a credit? If there was a guarantee of any kind you
should get $ back, then if they have something else, respend
the $.
This place is pretty good about returns actually, and the box wasn't
marked clearance.

snip
Not for DDR memory.
Do you recall what kind that is?
We have an old Dell that needs to have something in all the memory
slots.
snip
No, do not use anything antistatic. Antistatic, by
necessity, conducts electricity and it can (has been
observed several times) to prevent a board from POSTing or
working properly. It wouldn't generally damage a board, but
I wouldn't consider that impossible either.

I had the board in a case on top of 2 acrylic boards on my kitchen
stove. I was using a wrist strap attached to the case (unpainted surface
of course) I thought an anti static mat was something you could build
pc's on:
http://www.apogeekits.com/anti-static_mat.htm
snip
PCI video card?
Just wanting to be clear that it must have a video card,
which is obvious enough to most people but every now and
then someone asks, so I mention it anyway.
Yes, a pci video card
thanks very much for your help.
 
K

kony

Hmm...
Not quite sure what you mean here.
I'm currently using a 500 watt Aspire Concord PSU to run:

I mean, for example, that your Aspire is not actually a 500W
PSU, that I consider it potentially fradulent that it has
that label on it.

Abit IS10 mATX mobo intel chipset, I don't recall which one.
2.2 gig P4, 400 fsb.
2 slots w/1 gig pc3200 ram each.
ATI Radeon 9600 XT AGP video card.
Chaintech AV710 8 pci sound card.
1 80 gig IDE HD
1 120 gig SATA HD
1 160 gig SATA HD
1 zip 100 IDE drive
1 liteon dvd burner
1 cd rom.
1 floppy drive.
I have thrown out 2 PSU's after they've stopped powering the floppy
drive on some other pcs.
Surely 300 to 350 watts is enough to power 1 mobo with 1 cpu, stick of
ram, pci video card.

I will put this as simply as possible-

Generic power supplies are usually not capable of sustaining
the wattage stamped on their label. If your "300 to 350
watts" power supply is a generic, the odds are high that
they can't put out anywhere near 300W, possibly not even
230W. That doesn't necessarily mean yours are this low, but
that's the whole problem, that without an clear
identification and manufacturer confidence we can only
guess... and look at examples and trends.
There's nothing wrong with the PSU's, I've checked.
I don't recall who made them but I assure you they aren't generic.

OK, but Aspire is. Many others are too if they're only PC
Parts manufacturers rather than actual power supply
manufacturers. If you don't consider them as good as your
Aspire, they should be subject to more strutiny.
I don't like noisy PSU's, I buy good ones. What are the odds that BOTH
PSU's are insufficient for this task?

It's not about odds, it's about having at least one PSU that
is known to be 100% working and unquestionably of higher
capacity than needed. Maybe they are- the whole issue was
to establish this to the extent that we can rule out this
variable- or not.

I'm not building a pc, I'm simply trying to power up a mobo.

Ok. You may know this, but we don't know anything but what
you tell us, which so far is a couple of unknown 300-350W
PSU. The system load of what you're powering right now is
probably about 85% of the total if not more, because the
CPU, board, and video are typically the 3 largest power
consumers.

I'll just assume the PSU is fine though, it's your call to
make.

This place is pretty good about returns actually, and the box wasn't
marked clearance.

If it was marked $28, I'd tend to think it wasn't normal new
stock, there was something about it...
snip
Do you recall what kind that is?
We have an old Dell that needs to have something in all the memory
slots.
snip

RDRAM did, sometimes, but your board isn't using RDRAM,
right? DDR does not need them.
I had the board in a case on top of 2 acrylic boards on my kitchen
stove. I was using a wrist strap attached to the case (unpainted surface
of course) I thought an anti static mat was something you could build
pc's on:
http://www.apogeekits.com/anti-static_mat.htm

It's not a bad idea, maybe even good to have the mat for
assembly but not to run, power up the system while the
circuit boards are sitting on it.

That's the issue, that any and all metal exposed on the
back, including solder joints, will, with 100% certainty, be
conducting across that anti-static surface where it's
touching it. No parts should ever be powered on while lying
on an anti-static surface. Build it, then move it off the
mat before trying it.

The anti-static wrist strap is fine, having board in the
case is of course fine too- except in the rare cases where
something is shorting out, perhaps a stray motherboard
standoff or whatever, thus the suggestion to have the board
outside the case but on nonconductive rather than
anti-static material.
 
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J

jameshanley39

Machine said:
I found a Shuttle AB60R mobo at a local store for $28 bucks. It should
work with a P4 Northwood 400 fsb cpu. I tried a 2.4 400 fsb celeron with
1 stick of pc3200 ram. Board refused to post. Swapped the Celeron into
current pc ,(Abit IS10) and it worked fine. Swapped the P4 2.2 400 fsb
from Abit board into Shuttle board, still no post. Tried the ram in all
4 slots, still no post. Tried 2 different power supplies, no joy.
Cleared the cmos, removed the battery, same result. Fans fire up, lights
on the board come on. When I remove the cpus they are still cool. It's
obvious they haven't powered up.
If the board had been damaged by static would the lights and fans still
come on?
If the ram was the wrong type wouldn't I still get some sort of sound
from the mobo? I seem to recall 1 mobo squawking mightly when I
installed the ram incorrectly.
I think I just bought a board with a dead cpu socket.
Any way to tell for sure?

if you have a CPU in there (and that part of the MOBO where the CPU
goes works), and you take all the RAM out , it should beep. . If you
take the CPU out then it won't beep when there is no RAM , it will
never beep at all. (that's my experience anyway. I only tested that
with some P4 boards).

Maybe the 'under the CPU' part of the MBRD is bad.

How to test it?

I think all components have Power pins.

For example, USB has 4 pins GND, data+ , data-, Vcc and Vcc
is the power.
RAM has 1 or 2 power ones. with names like Vcc or Vdd

maybe you could identify which pins behind the CPU are the power ones,
and test them with a multimeter(attach a woman's sowing pin to the
probe in order for it to fit through the little holes in the socket).
Maybe other pins are relevant too.

I didn't have much luck testing it myself, but you could
see the PDF here
Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor 478-Pin Socket (mPGA478) Design
Guidelines
http://www.intel.com/design/pentium4/guides/249890.htm
Page 32 marks some 'power regions' and page 10 shows how the CPU
socket pins are numbered.
I don't know electronics, I actually tried testing these with a
multimeter on a working MBRD. One time I got voltages, another time I
didn't. I don't know why. And I can't remember if they were in the
spots marked 'power regions' ! I think maybe you may only get proper
voltages when the CPU is in there.

It's a shame, but once it all starts getting into testing electronics,
there is no computer book that really deals with it.

Upgrading and Repairing PCs by Scott Mueller doesn't cover it. He
covers testing PSU
voltages with a multimeter by backprobing. Though there are issues
there too that he doesn't go into.
 
M

Machine Messiah

snip
I mean, for example, that your Aspire is not actually a 500W
PSU, that I consider it potentially fradulent that it has
that label on it.
http://tinyurl.com/9rhfl
So you're saying that 99% of the PSUs sold are mislabled generic pieces
of trash?
Gee, it's a wonder any of us can build anything that boots/posts at all.
snip
Generic power supplies are usually not capable of sustaining
the wattage stamped on their label. If your "300 to 350
watts" power supply is a generic, the odds are high that
they can't put out anywhere near 300W, possibly not even
230W. That doesn't necessarily mean yours are this low, but
that's the whole problem, that without an clear
identification and manufacturer confidence we can only
guess... and look at examples and trends.
OK, but Aspire is. Many others are too if they're only PC
Parts manufacturers rather than actual power supply
manufacturers. If you don't consider them as good as your
Aspire, they should be subject to more strutiny.
snip
Guess I missed that memo on the change in definition for Generic.
Was under the foolish impression genric items lack a brand or
manufacturer's name. Silly me.
Hope my pc with the 500 watt Aspire doesn't explode or meltdown.
It's been running almost non stop for a year.
snip
Ok. You may know this, but we don't know anything but what
you tell us, which so far is a couple of unknown 300-350W
PSU. The system load of what you're powering right now is
probably about 85% of the total if not more, because the
CPU, board, and video are typically the 3 largest power
consumers.
snip
According to this site I need 138 watts to power up just the mobo:
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/
Wait, let me guess! They don't know what they're talking about either?
I think 200 watts sounds good for the task at hand.

Gee, intel got sued years ago over a math error in the P2 or P3 cpu.
Seem to recall the error would occur once every billion calculations or
so. Intel gets sued for that, yet no one has taken these PSUs
manufacturers to task for selling us junk 99% of the time.
Tsk tsk tsk.


And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is going to
pieces in a most laudable manner.
 
K

kony

snip
http://tinyurl.com/9rhfl
So you're saying that 99% of the PSUs sold are mislabled generic pieces
of trash?

No, I'm saying, "your Aspire is not actually a 500W PSU".

There are, however, a very large number of other generics
that are similarly if not even more overrated. You would
not be so defensive if you had not bought it. Blame Aspire,
when they put that label on, it was their fault you didn't
get what it said you were getting. Below you ask why no
lawsuits, which I address in a bit more detail below, but
briefly- You have this psu- if you dont' sue them, you are
an example of why. If it fails a couple years from now will
you then see you did not get a decent PSU or will you make
some kind of false rationalization that you got your money's
worth and therefore it's OK in it's value regardless of
whether it was accurately rated, regardless of whether
another PSU might've lasted over twice as long.


Gee, it's a wonder any of us can build anything that boots/posts at all.
snip

The fact is, very very few systems need anywhere near 500W.
Regardless, itt doesn't change the fact that a PSU should be
rated accurately.

snip
Guess I missed that memo on the change in definition for Generic.
Was under the foolish impression genric items lack a brand or
manufacturer's name. Silly me.

You simply lack an understanding of the PSU market.
Same designs produced are labeled under multiple generic
names and other lower-end PC parts names too. Same PSU
inside, different colored case, maybe a clear window and/or
a cable sheath and some neon, LEDs, etc.

Power supply manufacturers are major brands. PC parts
relabelers sell a far lower # of units in the aftermarket.

Hope my pc with the 500 watt Aspire doesn't explode or meltdown.
It's been running almost non stop for a year.


Hope you understand that is is what usually happens. They
do want the PSU to at least last past the warranty, and to
at least be able to power an average system in the
upper-tiered price-points (per generic pricing that is).
You would get similar capacity in a good manufacturer's
name-brand for same price as you linked. However, there are
certain parts more suject to short lifespan like fans. You
have no idea how long your fans will last at the one year
mark, as the typical fans that die do run for a year or two
before their failure causes whole PSU to bake. I'd pulled
plenty of PSU to observe this. Then you buy another one.
There may easily be higher cost and you still dont' have a
PSU (combination of 2 psu lifespans) expected to run for 10
years as many decent name brands will.

Take a hint from the OEMs. They don't guess, they qualify
parts and go with fairly accurately rated units. If the
generics were such a bargain the OEMs would jump at the
chance to shave a few more $ off a system price by using
them instead... but what do they know, they only sell the
majority of systems.

snip
According to this site I need 138 watts to power up just the mobo:
http://www.jscustompcs.com/power_supply/
Wait, let me guess! They don't know what they're talking about either?

I can see you have no bearing on reality at this point.
I have not written anything to suggest that your motherboard
uses any particular wattage, nothing that either agrees nor
disagrees with their 138W estimate.

However, in fact, their calculator does estimate system
needs higher than actual. The motherboard estimate is a
little closer to reality than some, and the total figure is
off by the most as it's impossible for a system to put all
parts under full load. For example a year or two ago I
recall putting one system into that calc and it determined
the system needed about 440W. Same system still runs today
off of a good name-brand 300W PSU. However, it didn't
require as much 12V amperage as this P4 box does, making the
power requirements different.

I think 200 watts sounds good for the task at hand.

It is possible your combination of parts is using around
200W as a ballpark, maybe a little less than that. What we
have not established yet is still the same issue mentioned
previously, whether an unknown make/model of so-called
300-350W PSU is actually capable of this.

I have here a 400W generic PSU, some might call it a brand,
simply because this particular generic label has not made
like a gypsy and abandoned this name to move on to others
yet (exclusively, though there are other names they're sold
under), and this so-called 400W is not capable same output
as a 240W that's been running a server for several years. I
bought the 240W supplies by the case and direct comparison,
they can power boxes the so-called 400W can't.

Point is, so far the basic fact remains that no matter what
you want to accept about generic ratings, the basic issue
remains the same. You have a need to determine if the power
supplies you've tried are actually capable of outputting
(Not just the wattage, but the amperage per rail) the power
this particular parts-combination needs.

We've drifted around this topic but never really resolved
it. You cannot just assume a labeled wattage means
anything. This is a well-established fact across the entire
internet, and you can repeatedly and reproductibly test this
yourself if you have the equpiment to do so.

Gee, intel got sued years ago over a math error in the P2 or P3 cpu.
Seem to recall the error would occur once every billion calculations or
so. Intel gets sued for that, yet no one has taken these PSUs
manufacturers to task for selling us junk 99% of the time.
Tsk tsk tsk.

Know who starts lawsuits? Those out a lot of money or those
who already have a fair amount. Typically not those buying
generic PSU, having it fall as a used PSU since it's then
not worth much. A used generic PSU is worth very, very
little. A Pentium CPU had cost multiple times as much and
would've had more value still, as well as the results of
calculations having greater impact. It's worse to have a
computer that runs and produces wrong result than one that
doesn't run until you fix it, if you have any kind of
serious use.

Know how many of those buying generic actually test for the
labeled output? Even fewer. Know how many of those
recognize that a static resistive load test alone is not
sufficient? Even fewer. Know how many recognize the
importance of safety shutdown circuitry? (can you guess
which two words belong here? : _____________ ).

The fact is, people DO have generic PSU failures. If you
deny this then you're wearing blinders. It is evident they
fail and the user does not sue. There you have it... why no
lawsuits? Who says there aren't any? Why not more
lawsuits? Because when someone has a failure they don't
use. It was a cheap PSU and a lot of people knew they took
a gamble I suppose.

I'm a bit apathetic about your problems at this point.
Perhaps you would benefit from just reconsidering the whole
situation. The situation is that companies are not starving
to give you 50% more capacity for free. You got what you
paid for and nothing more. Ink on a label is free.
Sustainable power supply wattage is not.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is going to
pieces in a most laudable manner.


Note that I don't have a problem figuring out of my PSU is
adequate. I can try ONE and know if it was the PSU, not two
or three. I KNOW what brand of fan is in mine and I know
the brand in yours too. I have a few hear- they seized up.

With all due respect, you need to learn a few things before
jumping to conclusions then second-guessing those who
actually do the hands-on work and testing. You'll get
nowhere until you do these things. Same goes for
presumptions about ESD damage. You presumed this is the
probable cause without any event to suggest it.

Sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but you've drifted down
a tangent and it's for your own good that you realize where
you've gone wrong. Maybe it won't happen today, but you'll
keep facing similar issues if you dont realize this
eventually. Generic PSU certainly can be used, BUT they
have to be de-rated to their actual output capablity. That
was the central issue all along, that you have to know what
that actual capability is to judge it's fitness for any
given parts.

Did you even take voltage readings? It would be a bit
ridiculous to make any presumption about the power if you
haven't done that yet, but I suspect you will have none of
my ideas anymore so I guess I'll just exit the thread.
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

Machine said:
Guess I missed that memo on the change in definition for Generic.
Was under the foolish impression genric items lack a brand or
manufacturer's name. Silly me.

Even the cheapest stuff I've bought had some brand name on it, although
it couldn't always easily be traced to the actual manufacturer.

Aspire is made by Topower, one of the largest PC PSU makers, and while
it's nowhere close to Deer or current Powmax garbage, it's far from
Fortron-Source or PC Power & Cooling quality. Aspire is probably like
Thermaltake or Enermax, at best. OTOH Topower also makes premium
lines, such as OCZ and Tagan.

Here's what a 550W Aspire looks like internally:
www.overclockercafe.com/Reviews/other_misc/Aspire_Chameleon/pics/1008.jpg

And here's a 470W OCZ brand PSU:
www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/oczpsu/open1.jpg
Hope my pc with the 500 watt Aspire doesn't explode or meltdown.

Not that I want you to suffer bodily injury or financial loss, but that
would be so cool!
 
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J

JAD

SNIPAGE HUGELY


This is a bunk board. Not static, not the 500000 watt psu, not the CPU, not
the little bent yellow dealy on the bottom of whatever. The box was opened,
the package unsealed, the DAMN DISKS were missing. This was Barney's first
attempt board, and after soaking it in the sink to try and 'shrink' it- so
it would fit in his mini ATX case, he took it back and you got stuck with
it. 28$ for a 150$ board would have been my first clue. When things sound
too good to be true.........
 
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