How do I insrtall XP from scratch?

[Paul]

Yep, I noticed that sideways connector, and found it's connected to the
TWO CD drives. One appears to be a CD reader, the other is a CD/DVD
burner. While I suppose I could get rid of one of them (but prefer not
to), I guess getting rid of one of those CD drives is the only way to
use an IDE drive. I am not aware of cables made for more than 2 IDE
drives, and dont think that is possible to have more than two on one IDE
"port". AM I CORRECT ON THIS?

Two per cable is all you get, so disconnecting one
of the optical drives makes sense. Then you'll have
room for an IDE hard drive. Just a matter of making
sure the two units sharing the cable, have complementary
jumper settings (cable_select/cable_select or master/slave)

Paul

 

[casey.o]

Well, Bill Gateway says you can, it just behaves like an OEM one (i. e.
will ask for the key).

Well, I have the OEM install CD for a Dell computer, and have a dead
Dell, which will not be repaired, with a valid Reg-Key on the case. That
computer has a dedicated fan on the case, that contains special
electronics. No fan, and the computer wont even boot properly. A
replacement fan costs around $100 w/shipping, and is specific to that
model Dell ONLY. This is why I dislike Dells. You cant just buy
generic parts for them.

Anyhow, this got me thinking..... Lets say I did want to repair that
Dell, but the motherboard was dead. So, I'd install a new MB, (lets say
an Asus), including new processor and Ram. Then of course the
installation of XP on the harddrive is pretty much worthless without at
least added drievrs if not a new install.

In this case, it would really be the same computer (same case), but the
case dont matter. If the thing could be booted at all from the existing
hard drive, the only common element would be the hard drive. (unless MS
also tracks the CD drives, floppy drive, etc). I know if I had to
replace the MB and processor, I'd be awfully pisserd if i also had to
buy a new XP install CD. In that case, it really is the SAME computer,
even if the guts are all new.

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>,

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:40:26 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
In this case, it would really be the same computer (same case), but the
case dont matter. If the thing could be booted at all from the existing
hard drive, the only common element would be the hard drive. (unless MS
also tracks the CD drives, floppy drive, etc). I know if I had to

I don't know exactly which bits are tracked, but lots are. It allows a
certain amount of modification in a certain time (I think about three
months), to _allow_ people to upgrade/repair their computer; the
different potential changes all have points allocated to them (rather
like points on a UK driving licence! Though the expiry time is less),
and if you cross some threshold, it asks for a re-whatever. (Which may
involve you talking to a Microsoft person to explain what you've done.)

replace the MB and processor, I'd be awfully pisserd if i also had to
buy a new XP install CD. In that case, it really is the SAME computer,
even if the guts are all new.

How _would_ you suggest they guard against OS duplication (i. e. piracy)
then? I don't _like_ this method, but it seems reasonable.

 

[casey.o]

On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".

Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).

IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

 

[Paul]

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

SATA drives offer the advantage of higher transfer rates.

Ribbon cables went as high as 133MB/sec, but in most cases, users
would see 100MB/sec read and 88MB/sec write. That's because there
weren't a lot of cases where all components were ready for 133MB/sec.

SATA does 150MB/sec, 300MB/sec, 600MB/sec. Those are three of
the speeds it does. The platters on the other hand, range from
65MB/sec, 135MB/sec, 180MB/sec (that's how fast the data comes
off, where the heads meet the platter). And when SSD (solid state drives)
are considered, they use every bit of the available bandwidth
of SATA. So SATA and SSD go hand in hand. You can get SSD
drives, operating at 500MB/sec.

It's a natural progression, as many parts of the computer now
use similar, fast, point to point interconnect. The PCI Express bus,
SATA cable, and USB3, all use very high speed serial differential
interconnect. It's great stuff. The signals look nice. If you
looked at the electrical signals on an IDE cable, you'd barf
they look so bad. You'd be asking the question "my data
travels on *THAT*". That's how bad it is. SATA is a very
nice interconnect and well behaved. It's rather amazing
that IDE works at all.

*******

I see no reason to panic in your case. As far as I know,
there isn't a strong usage case for two optical drives.
You can do reading and burning with the burner drive, and
remove the other one. Then, just jumper the IDE hard drive with
a jumper setting, that complements the existing (remaining) optical drive.

The optical drive and hard drive can coexist on the same IDE
cable, without "slowing one another down". At least, on
modern computers.

*******

IDE Native (registers in I/O space, INT14 and INT15 used for interrupts)
IDE Enhanced (registers in PCI space, INTA# for interrupts)

Both of those, work the same at the disk drive end. The difference
there, is older versus newer OSes. If you want to install Win98,
you use IDE Native, because that's all that Windows 98 knows about.

An IDE ribbon cable, is the IDE you know and love. When a SATA
device in the BIOS has an "IDE" entry for it, it means the
hardware emulates an IDE device, converting between any nuances
of IDE and SATA. The SATA drive may even be given a fake name
of "Master" or "Slave", but SATA drives have no jumpers for such,
so those are just names now.

So SATAs can be converted to Fake IDE, by your motherboard. The
OS thinks it is installing on an IDE drive. This is great, if
the OS only has IDE drivers.

AHCI is a newer standard for SATA. It adds some things to
basic drive operation. Hot Plug, is the ability to connect
a hard drive to the computer, while it is running. Almost
as if the SATA cable was a USB cable. That is useful for things
like SATA docks - a device with a slot where a SATA hard
drive can plug in.

AHCI also supports native command queuing. It allows the motherboard
to issue command 1,2,3. And for the disk to complete the commands
in order 1,3,2. The disk drive gives a number, for each command it
completes, so the motherboard end knows how much work it has done.
The reason the disk wants to execute the commands out of order,
is so the hard drive head travels the least distance.

RAID is for multiple drives. It seems to share some of the AHCI
code, but for soft RAID, the driver has to know how to stitch
the data back together, so the OS can use it. If the data
is interleaved on the drives, the RAID driver de-interleaves it.
The OS thinks it is reading from a "very large logical disk".
The RAID driver hides the details of working with multiple
disks and spreading the data over them.

*******

So when do you use the various modes ?

1) IDE is for a single drive, which is just going to
stay put inside the computer. And the user has such a
low work load for the drive, that NCQ is not really needed.
If you're emailing and web surfing, this is good enough.

IDE Native or Compatible, are going to work with more OSes,
without driver floppies, than anything else. For example,
I don't use AHCI in the house here at all. And this was
a decision on my part, and not an accident.

2) AHCI is suited to computers where you want to plug in
drives on the fly. I'm not even sure that AHCI makes
sense for NCQ on SSD drives. Since an SSD drive completes
commands so fast, it isn't required. AHCI might be good
for a server computer, where the disk drives are pummeled
24/7 with requests, and the command queue can grow quite large.

3) RAID is for when you have multiple disks. And have a
clue what weaknesses RAID has. No need to discuss that
in your case, if only a drive or two will be in use.
RAID can give higher speed (RAID0), or reliability
(parity drive for redundancy in a RAID5 three or four drive
array). But it's generally not a good fit for home users,
because a home user will freak out when a RAID dies on them
I've had discussions with the people who freak out on
a busted RAID. Loads of fun. You see, nobody tests
these things, before they put a ton of movies on them
I feel sorry for the users who put so much work into it.

*******

If installing WinXP, I would recommend a WinXP SP2 or SP3 installer
disc. You can start with any version, and end up with one of those,
using Autostreamer or Nlite (NLite being the more recent program).
If you start with WinXP Gold (no SP) or WinXP SP1A, I don't know
whether the IDE Enhanced driver is present.

If you have a working floppy drive, and use the MAKEDISK, you
can create a floppy driver diskette, press F6 when prompted by
the WinXP installer CD, and have it pick up the driver from that.
What I can't tell you, is whether there will be any issues with
using an older version of WinXP, like WinXP Gold.

Downloading the network version of SP2 or SP3, gives you materials
to use with NLite. And then you can make a new CD.

I had to do that, back when I was using Win2K. I bought a
Win2K SP2 disc. It would not handle hard drives larger than
137GB. I could use a 120GB IDE drive OK. But a 160GB drive
would have lost capacity. So, I downloaded SP4 and used
AutoStreamer, to make a Win2K SP4 disc. I could then reinstall
Win2K SP4 on larger IDE drives. Or, plug in a SATA drive larger
than the limit, and not have to worry about something getting
corrupted. An incentive for slipstreaming up to the latest
installer disk, is not having to worry about drivers any more
(at least, for IDE). And also, not having to worry about
capacity limits (up to the 2TB limitation of MBR partitioning).

I have one 3TB drive here, and I have to use a special driver
in WinXP, to make it look like a 2TB drive plus a 1TB drive.
The driver makes a "fake" hard drive. And no, you don't
want to do that, as it's all I can do to keep it running
Stick with drives under 2TB when purchasing, and there
will be less hair loss while using them.

HTH,
Paul

 

[Mayayana]

If you still want an expansion card after Paul's
explanations, see here:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_slc.asp?MfrId=0&CatId=508

--
-
|
| >On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".
| >
| >Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
| >need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
| >F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
| >should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
| >The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
| >the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).
| >
| >IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
| >nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.
|
| I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
| recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
| Correct?
|
| If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
| often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
| I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
| earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
| I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.
|
| You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
| Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?
|
| The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
| At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
| they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
| I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
| it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.
|
| In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
| plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
| a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
| solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
| original MB connector (or vice versa).
|
| That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
| website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?
|
| If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
| drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
| "the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
| not worth the trouble.
|
| This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
| for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
| IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
| guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
| ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
| does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
| apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
| motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
| IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
| Windows.
|
|
|
|

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>,

(I think he means you'll get built-in SATA drivers with a slipstreamed
CD; IDE ones are, I think, built-in to even a non-slipstreamed one.)

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

Depends on your BIOS. Most (I think) have an option to make SATA look
like IDE, so anything you use on them - including the installer for XP
(and the installation that results) - thinks it's going onto an IDE
drive.

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

I too like being able to boot from a floppy.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

RAID = redundant array of inexpensive discs (yes really). It's a way
(several ways) of using two or more drives at once: either for extra
speed (for example, 16 bit words written 8 bits to each drive, the
drives operating in parallel), or redundancy (protection against drive
failure), and so on, including I think combinations. The various types
are known by numbers, RAIDs 0 and 5 being I think the commonest. Paul
has explained what AHCI is about.

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.

Agreed! I guess they've just seen that SATA is the way things are going.

I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

Well, cost and space.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

EIDE controller card. Make sure it has a connector that suits your mobo
(PCI if that's what the mobo has - careful, that's another one that's
disappearing [I still have a few ISA cards around!] - I think the new
one's called PCI Express, and I'm not sure it's backward-compatible).

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

Whatever the relative merits, I think you'll find they're the way things
are going: I don't think the larger capacity drives are even available
in IDE (which is sometimes called PATA these days). I think SATA
probably _is_ better - not only neater connectors (and cables that
obstruct airflow less!), but I think as Paul said they are electrically
better.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?

No, general purpose. I think you'll find laptops in particular have been
using SATA rather than EIDE for quite a while.

IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS

I agree it often seems that way )-:.

does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

Well, anyone using Windows XP SP0 or earlier ones, and who _doesn't_
have a BIOS that can make SATAs look like EIDEs.

 

[Paul]

In message <[email protected]>,
(e-mail address removed) writes:
Well, anyone using Windows XP SP0 or earlier ones, and who _doesn't_
have a BIOS that can make SATAs look like EIDEs.

Generally speaking, the motherboard maker cannot "make connectors
on demand". It's not something they do on a whim.
It's a matter of the economics. The cheapest motherboard product,
would use the connector interfaces on the Southbridge. So if the
Southbridge comes with four SATA and only one IDE, then, that's what
you get. (That is likely all that exists on the SB600.)

If the Southbridge comes with six SATA and zero IDE, the manufacturer
may add a JMicron add-on chip, to do a single IDE connector. My
current motherboard works that way. The higher up the price
scale the motherboards go, the higher the odds of additional
controller chips. Mine is only one rung above "cheap", so
it only came with one additional chip, to give me a single
IDE. They could have put two chips like that, but they didn't.

They don't generally maintain a constant feature set with time.
When an interface is "deprecated", it will eventually disappear.
If at one time, a computer came with four SATA and two IDE (the
halcyon days), you cannot expect them to deliver IDE forever.
A day will come, when add-on IDE and IDE in general, will be
gone. It'll be six SATA and zero IDE after that. And you'll then
need an older computer, to recover your data.

IDE drives are still available from the hard drive companies,
but they're intended for replacements, rather than new builds.
The 200GB or 250GB IDE drives, only started to show up
again, after the floods near the factory. Implying some
other factory was brought back into production or
something. You can never really rely on being able to
get a given size of IDE, on any given day. It's whatever
is "left in the sales channel".

The platters made now, are relatively high capacity. Like
500GB per platter. They may not make platters any more,
with small enough capacity to suit the IDE drives. And I've
seen no effort to ship larger IDE drives. The largest IDE
drive ever, was 750GB. And when that one disappeared, they
never brought any of those back. Somewhere around 200 or 250
is about the largest IDE you can reasonably expect, with
80GB being a more common option (as a replacement).

Paul

 

[casey.o]

Generally speaking, the motherboard maker cannot "make connectors
on demand". It's not something they do on a whim.
It's a matter of the economics. The cheapest motherboard product,
would use the connector interfaces on the Southbridge. So if the
Southbridge comes with four SATA and only one IDE, then, that's what
you get. (That is likely all that exists on the SB600.)

If the Southbridge comes with six SATA and zero IDE, the manufacturer
may add a JMicron add-on chip, to do a single IDE connector. My
current motherboard works that way. The higher up the price
scale the motherboards go, the higher the odds of additional
controller chips. Mine is only one rung above "cheap", so
it only came with one additional chip, to give me a single
IDE. They could have put two chips like that, but they didn't.

They don't generally maintain a constant feature set with time.
When an interface is "deprecated", it will eventually disappear.
If at one time, a computer came with four SATA and two IDE (the
halcyon days), you cannot expect them to deliver IDE forever.
A day will come, when add-on IDE and IDE in general, will be
gone. It'll be six SATA and zero IDE after that. And you'll then
need an older computer, to recover your data.

IDE drives are still available from the hard drive companies,
but they're intended for replacements, rather than new builds.
The 200GB or 250GB IDE drives, only started to show up
again, after the floods near the factory. Implying some
other factory was brought back into production or
something. You can never really rely on being able to
get a given size of IDE, on any given day. It's whatever
is "left in the sales channel".

The platters made now, are relatively high capacity. Like
500GB per platter. They may not make platters any more,
with small enough capacity to suit the IDE drives. And I've
seen no effort to ship larger IDE drives. The largest IDE
drive ever, was 750GB. And when that one disappeared, they
never brought any of those back. Somewhere around 200 or 250
is about the largest IDE you can reasonably expect, with
80GB being a more common option (as a replacement).

Paul

From what you're saying, am I correct to assume that those external
drives that plug into a USB, are SATA drives? I have 3 of them, a 250,
320, and 500GB. I have never opened one of them. I've seen them in the
stores as high as 1TB lately.

Just an off thought, I kind of get a laugh, thinking about all this
speed I'll gain, compared to my old computer, knowing I'll never gain
anything, because I'm limited to dialup internet, which is all I can get
where I live (rural farm). Yea, there is the option of getting a
satellite dish, but i cant afford Dish Network, nor do I have any
interest in their tv programming which is required as part of the
package they sell.

My main goal in getting tyhis newer system to work, is because as I said
before, my old computer is getting aa little flakey, where the RAM seems
to need attention every few weeks (loses contact), and because I'm kind
of being forced to upgrade to XP, because Win98 wont allow any browsers
compatible with the web these days. Using older browsers are constantly
giving script errors or loading pages wrong. Personally, I like Win98
better than any other OS, Ive used, But I'll have to get used to XP.
For some odd reason, my dual booted win2000 partition on this machine
refuses to properly connect to the internet. Win98 connects just fine,
but not W2000. (with same external modem). I only boot to Win2000 for
connecting my USB external drives, since W98 lacks support for most of
them. I can connect to the net with Win2000, but the speed is never
over 24K, and although I am connected, no data gets transferred after a
few minutes.

 

[Paul]

From what you're saying, am I correct to assume that those external
drives that plug into a USB, are SATA drives? I have 3 of them, a 250,
320, and 500GB. I have never opened one of them. I've seen them in the
stores as high as 1TB lately.

It depends on the vintage. They're most likely SATA, but if they're
older, they could also be IDE. One which is 1TB, that would be SATA for
sure.

The USB cable limits the rate. USB1.1 gives 1MB/sec (my Macintosh
computer does that! Ugh). USB2.0 gives 30MB/sec (estimate of practical rate).
USB3.0 can do 200MB/sec. I don't have any USB3 installed here (not
yet at least - card purchased but not installed). Those three drives
of yours, can probably do at least 65MB/sec, if they weren't limited
by USB2.0 .

You can get a PCI USB3 card. It would be limited to around 100MB/sec
by the performance of the PCI bus in the computer. And it's rather
expensive as it's a bridged card. Compared to the $25 I just paid for
the USB3 card I got. Some day, mine will be running in the 200MB/sec
range, as I don't have the right slot for it to go at ~330MB/sec
(estimated fastest disk storage possible over USB3, with the right
motherboard slot).

Just an off thought, I kind of get a laugh, thinking about all this
speed I'll gain, compared to my old computer, knowing I'll never gain
anything, because I'm limited to dialup internet, which is all I can get
where I live (rural farm). Yea, there is the option of getting a
satellite dish, but i cant afford Dish Network, nor do I have any
interest in their tv programming which is required as part of the
package they sell.

Been there, done that. We have dialup back home, and I can't even
keep up with the Windows Updates for WinXP on that computer. I try
to do Windows Update when I go back home, but it's hopeless.

Some rural areas, an entrepreneur might be able to set you up
with a radio system. My sister uses something like that, and
it just might be faster than my Internet. So depending on your
neighborhood, all it takes is one motivated person to fix that
for you. (As far as I know, it's not a Wifi based system.)

My main goal in getting tyhis newer system to work, is because as I said
before, my old computer is getting aa little flakey, where the RAM seems
to need attention every few weeks (loses contact), and because I'm kind
of being forced to upgrade to XP, because Win98 wont allow any browsers
compatible with the web these days. Using older browsers are constantly
giving script errors or loading pages wrong. Personally, I like Win98
better than any other OS, Ive used, But I'll have to get used to XP.
For some odd reason, my dual booted win2000 partition on this machine
refuses to properly connect to the internet. Win98 connects just fine,
but not W2000. (with same external modem). I only boot to Win2000 for
connecting my USB external drives, since W98 lacks support for most of
them. I can connect to the net with Win2000, but the speed is never
over 24K, and although I am connected, no data gets transferred after a
few minutes.

For Win98, you'd look at KernelEx first. That's a way of extending
Win98 so you can use slightly more modern software. I expect
even KernelEx can't help with the latest browsers though. I don't
track Win98, but there should be an extensive history archived
in Google Groups for a thing like this. Basically, it'll support
certain calls that modern software makes, to fool the software
into running. There used to be an article on this in Wikipedia, but
it was removed as not being "noteworthy" or something. Utter rubbish.

http://kernelex.sourceforge.net/

For USB on Win98, you'd want to look for something like
"Maximus Decim". That was something to do with adding USB
capability to Win98. I don't know all the details on this,
like what USB Classes are supported, whether it's just
USB Mass Storage, or includes something else.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/43605-maximus-decim-native-usb-drivers/

As for dialup modems, they're loads of fun. I own two dialup
modems, each purchased for working with different modem pool types.

At one time, modems suffered from "spiral of death", where the
connection speed would drop and drop with time, until the modem
would just hang up the phone. By owning a K56 and an X2 based
modem, I could try one or the other, to get away from "spiral of death".
I used to connect to FreeNet with one, and the modem pool at work
with the other.

The 24K implies line impairment (assuming this is a 56K modem and
not a 33K). It all depends on how "friendly" your phone company is,
as to whether they'd help or not. My experience is, look at the wiring
in the house first. I've run into two cases now, where it was components
inside the house, that adversely affected the modem speed. The lowest
speed I used to get, was a drop to 33K when my wiring was bad (corroded
wall jack boxes). By removing the phone wiring, and running a single new
cable down to the demarc in the basement, I could get 43K as an average
figure. In another case, it was a wire damaged as it went through a
basement wall, which was the fault. The phone company can be helpful, but
they make their money from the service calls where they have
to evaluate your house wiring. I didn't need anyone's help, to squeeze a
little more out of my phone line. I was surprised to find the contacts
on the floor board junction box, with corrosion on them. That's where the
static-like noise was coming from.

I don't know why your Win2K was acting up. I think part of my dialup
time was spent on Win2K. Probably a bit less time on Win98. I was using
a Macintosh back in the Win98 era, and my Win98 PC wasn't the primary
go-to machine at the time. I had more software for the Mac. Until support
for it was dropped at work.

I've even used dialup on WinXP - when my ADSL would stop working,
I'd use dialup to reach the website of the ADSL ISP Just to
check their status on when they planned to fix it. It beats waiting
45 minutes to reach their tech support as a plain phone call.

Paul

 

[casey.o]

It depends on the vintage. They're most likely SATA, but if they're
older, they could also be IDE. One which is 1TB, that would be SATA for
sure.

The oldest one is about 5 years old. It's the smallest data (250gb) and
biggest case.

The USB cable limits the rate. USB1.1 gives 1MB/sec (my Macintosh
computer does that! Ugh). USB2.0 gives 30MB/sec (estimate of practical rate).
USB3.0 can do 200MB/sec. I don't have any USB3 installed here (not
yet at least - card purchased but not installed). Those three drives
of yours, can probably do at least 65MB/sec, if they weren't limited
by USB2.0 .

My computer, a 1000mhz Net Vista IBM from 2000, came with Win2000. I
removed the hard drive, and replaced it with my operating Win98 drive
from a much slower computer. After adding a few drivers it was back in
operation. That 6gb drive was eventually cloned to a 40gb, and had 3
partitions. Later I added another 40gb, which was copied to a 120gb,
with also 3 partitions. Now, I have an 80gb for C: thru E: amd 120gb
(second drive) for F: thru I: (Each partitions serves a different
purpose, with all of the second drive being for storage. C: boots
Win98se, D: boots Win2000.

This computer had USB 1.0, but I added a card for USB 2.0. (I did not
even know there is a version 3 yet).

USB 1.0 worked, but was slow to transfer photos from my camera, but USB
2 works fine.

You can get a PCI USB3 card. It would be limited to around 100MB/sec
by the performance of the PCI bus in the computer. And it's rather
expensive as it's a bridged card. Compared to the $25 I just paid for
the USB3 card I got. Some day, mine will be running in the 200MB/sec
range, as I don't have the right slot for it to go at ~330MB/sec
(estimated fastest disk storage possible over USB3, with the right
motherboard slot).

All my slots are PCI on this conmputer.

Been there, done that. We have dialup back home, and I can't even
keep up with the Windows Updates for WinXP on that computer. I try
to do Windows Update when I go back home, but it's hopeless.

Which reminds me, where can I get a download of XP SP3, to burn onto a
CD. I wont even try to update online, but I can download an .ISO file
from the WIFI at our library, or a local fast food place.

Some rural areas, an entrepreneur might be able to set you up
with a radio system. My sister uses something like that, and
it just might be faster than my Internet. So depending on your
neighborhood, all it takes is one motivated person to fix that
for you. (As far as I know, it's not a Wifi based system.)

I never heard of that radio system, but I doubt it's available here. I
cant even get a good cellphone signal from my house, I have to walk up
the hill. This is one reason I keep a landline, plus for dialup net.

For Win98, you'd look at KernelEx first. That's a way of extending
Win98 so you can use slightly more modern software. I expect
even KernelEx can't help with the latest browsers though. I don't
track Win98, but there should be an extensive history archived
in Google Groups for a thing like this. Basically, it'll support
certain calls that modern software makes, to fool the software
into running. There used to be an article on this in Wikipedia, but
it was removed as not being "noteworthy" or something. Utter rubbish.

I have Kernal-Ex installed, latest version. I can run Firefox 8.x,
however,, it seems to crash when I close it.... weird problem...
I also have Firefox 2.x installed. which works fien but is often refused
by many websites, and gets way too many script errors.

http://kernelex.sourceforge.net/

For USB on Win98, you'd want to look for something like
"Maximus Decim". That was something to do with adding USB
capability to Win98. I don't know all the details on this,
like what USB Classes are supported, whether it's just
USB Mass Storage, or includes something else.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/43605-maximus-decim-native-usb-drivers/

I've heard of that, never tried it....

As for dialup modems, they're loads of fun. I own two dialup
modems, each purchased for working with different modem pool types.

At one time, modems suffered from "spiral of death", where the
connection speed would drop and drop with time, until the modem
would just hang up the phone. By owning a K56 and an X2 based
modem, I could try one or the other, to get away from "spiral of death".
I used to connect to FreeNet with one, and the modem pool at work
with the other.

I get that spiral of death when I try to download anything larger than
about 50megs. I just go to the library and DL the big stuff on my
laptop.

The 24K implies line impairment (assuming this is a 56K modem and
not a 33K). It all depends on how "friendly" your phone company is,
as to whether they'd help or not. My experience is, look at the wiring
in the house first. I've run into two cases now, where it was components
inside the house, that adversely affected the modem speed. The lowest
speed I used to get, was a drop to 33K when my wiring was bad (corroded
wall jack boxes). By removing the phone wiring, and running a single new
cable down to the demarc in the basement, I could get 43K as an average
figure. In another case, it was a wire damaged as it went through a
basement wall, which was the fault. The phone company can be helpful, but
they make their money from the service calls where they have
to evaluate your house wiring. I didn't need anyone's help, to squeeze a
little more out of my phone line. I was surprised to find the contacts
on the floor board junction box, with corrosion on them. That's where the
static-like noise was coming from.

Using the same modem, same computer and same phone line, I usually get
around 40,000 to 45,000bps using Win98. My phone block is right below
the computer jack I wired it myself, and cleaned the copper from the
wires and screws in the main block. Once and awhile I will only get 33k
or 38k using Win98se. But the minute I connect with Win2000, I only get
24K at most and while it might download a few newsgroup messages, or
open google, but after a few minutes, I get no data transfer at all.
(yet I'm still connected).

This has been like this for years, I asked on a Win2000 newsgroups years
ago, and never got any useful help. Someone told me to shut off the
modem and turn it back on, when switching to W2000, I tried that, but
nothing changed. I just dont connect to the internet when booted to
Win2000 anymore. In soem ways, it appears that the "spiral of death"
occurs in about 5 minutes or less when connected under Win2000. I dont
disconnect, it just stays connected but no data is transferred.

I use Win98 about 99% of the time anyhow. I really only boot to Win2000
to do some USB transfers. In some ways, I do wish I could get a better
modem connection in W2000, because I believe I can use more modern
browsers.

Thanks

 

[Paul]

All my slots are PCI on this conmputer.

This is the bridged PCI to USB3. On the card surface, it
goes from PCI to PCI Express (via bridge chip), then PCI Express
to USB3 (regular USB3 chio). It's $60. It's a relatively
expensive way to connect a USB hard drive at 100MB/sec or so.
Card keying is universal, 3.3V or 5V bus. Most regular computers
have 5V keying for PCI (all mine do). At least one Mac was 3.3V.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158359

Looks like a limitation, might be a lack of drivers.

http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapt...USB-3-Adapter-Card-with-SATA-Power~PCIUSB3S22

Windows XP(32/64-bit)
Server 2003(32/64-bit)
Server 2008 R2
Vista/Win7/Win8

A similar card here, a reviewer was kind enough to benchmark it.
Gets 83MB/sec best case. So didn't even make it to 100MB/sec.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158361

And super-crazy, the same company makes a PCI Express to PCI adapter.
I expect you fit a low profile PCI Express card in the top connector,
with an x1 connector on the PCI Express card. Otherwise,
you could not put the side panel back on the computer.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815158190

Which reminds me, where can I get a download of XP SP3, to burn onto a
CD. I wont even try to update online, but I can download an .ISO file
from the WIFI at our library, or a local fast food place.

This would be the .exe version, suitable for slipstreaming and
making a new WinXP installer disc.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=24

And the ISO, for popping in a CD with just SP3 on it, is here.
You would install WinXP from its CD first, then pop this
CD in and install SP3, (try to) activate (can't activate with IE5),
install IE8, then do Windows Update. Very messy.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=25129

There are more than 100 Windows Updates that come after that,
so SP3 doesn't help a whole lot. They could almost afford to
make an SP4 before April. April is end of support. On
Win2K, they made something called RollUp 1 Revision 2, which
was a package of updates past SP4. If they wanted, they could
package the Windows Updates since SP3 that way.

You could work on this before April. I would recommend
going to the library and working on this now. What this
allows, is downloading a lot of the Windows Updates
to a separate folder on the hard drive. If Windows Update
ever stopped functioning, these updates could be applied
when re-installing WinXP. That gets you the 100 updates, without
doing them over dialup, or not getting them at all. The
files themselves come from Microsoft, and the tool just
gets the manifest file from Microsoft, and figures out
what to download. The Microsoft lawyers would shut them
down, if the Windows Update portion was coming from this site.

http://forums.wsusoffline.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=411

http://download.wsusoffline.net/

Using the same modem, same computer and same phone line, I usually get
around 40,000 to 45,000bps using Win98. My phone block is right below
the computer jack I wired it myself, and cleaned the copper from the
wires and screws in the main block. Once and awhile I will only get 33k
or 38k using Win98se. But the minute I connect with Win2000, I only get
24K at most and while it might download a few newsgroup messages, or
open google, but after a few minutes, I get no data transfer at all.
(yet I'm still connected).

This has been like this for years, I asked on a Win2000 newsgroups years
ago, and never got any useful help. Someone told me to shut off the
modem and turn it back on, when switching to W2000, I tried that, but
nothing changed. I just dont connect to the internet when booted to
Win2000 anymore. In soem ways, it appears that the "spiral of death"
occurs in about 5 minutes or less when connected under Win2000. I dont
disconnect, it just stays connected but no data is transferred.

I use Win98 about 99% of the time anyhow. I really only boot to Win2000
to do some USB transfers. In some ways, I do wish I could get a better
modem connection in W2000, because I believe I can use more modern
browsers.

Thanks

OK, that suggests the Win2K problem, is the "driver". It's possible
to restrict the data rate on a modem. You can operate a 56K modem
at 56K max (get maybe 43-45 or so). You can force it down to 33K
(and your 24K could be the result). You can force it to standards lower
than that. If you listen to the negotiation tone, whole chunks of
negotiation are missing. The tones sound different, because the
modem is prevented from testing for 56K first.

The 33.6K standard, is the "highest rate without tricks". The 56K
asymmetric standards rely on analog to digital conversion in one
direction, to give better download rates. And your Win98 demonstrates
you got a working 56K. So the "trick" is in place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/56k

Modem drivers are very messy. I had no modem driver for WinXP for
mine. I think I had to use a "generic" driver on WinXP. I don't
know what exists in the way of options for Win2K.

So your performance evidence, suggests the driver isn't allowing
the upper rate. It could even be, if you examine the Hayes AT
commands being sent to the modem, you'd see a command for
turning off 56K.

When if comes to config, modems are a hair puller. They're great
when they're under "full support", and not so great when you
have to hack them to get them to run.

Some modems, you can also flash upgrade them to the latest
modem standard. I doubt that's worth the risk now, as a
bricked modem would be pretty hard to replace with
something good. Even when I bought my X2 modem, pickings
were pretty thin.

Good luck,
Paul

 

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <[email protected]>, Paul <[email protected]>
writes:
[]

When an interface is "deprecated", it will eventually disappear.

(I do hate that word: I come across it when people talk about HTML, for
example. CENTER is a lot easier to understand than DIV ...)

If at one time, a computer came with four SATA and two IDE (the
halcyon days), you cannot expect them to deliver IDE forever.
A day will come, when add-on IDE and IDE in general, will be
gone. It'll be six SATA and zero IDE after that. And you'll then
need an older computer, to recover your data.

I _think_ I've seen SATA to EIDE/PATA converters - possibly even
bidirectional ones. (Whether they're self-contained or need drivers [and
thus an OS already present] I don't know, though I _think_
self-contained.)
[]

The platters made now, are relatively high capacity. Like
500GB per platter. They may not make platters any more,
with small enough capacity to suit the IDE drives. And I've

(Couldn't they put the high-capacity platters in the low-capacity
drives? Not that I'm saying that'd be a good idea.)

seen no effort to ship larger IDE drives. The largest IDE
drive ever, was 750GB. And when that one disappeared, they
never brought any of those back. Somewhere around 200 or 250
is about the largest IDE you can reasonably expect, with
80GB being a more common option (as a replacement).

Paul

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

My daughter is appalled by it at all times, but you know you have to appal
your 14-year-old daughter otherwise you're not doing your job as a father. -
Richard Osman to Alison Graham, in Radio Times 2013-6-8 to 14

 

[Paul]

I _think_ I've seen SATA to EIDE/PATA converters - possibly even
bidirectional ones. (Whether they're self-contained or need drivers [and
thus an OS already present] I don't know, though I _think_ self-contained.)
[]

Yes, adapters exist. But the conversion chips, some of the IC companies
have stopped making them. Now we're left with some of the "lesser" ICs
for the job.

In some cases, an adapter that used to have a Marvell chip, might
be using a chip with "sun" in the name. And the characteristics might
not be the same. The casing on the outside of the adapter might be
identical to the known-good model.

Always check the customer reviews, to see if the remaining rubbish
is worth the money.

I have an adapter here, and the one I got works great. But since
these things come and go, you need to do the research before
pouring money into them.

The most funny product offered, is someone pointed out an adapter
being sold for $1. When tested, the working rate was zero percent
All received goods were dead. It's like buying a hood ornament.

(Couldn't they put the high-capacity platters in the low-capacity
drives? Not that I'm saying that'd be a good idea.)

I don't get the impression they mix and match that easily.

As far as I know, the plant that makes platters, only runs
two or three capacities at the same time. So if they needed
some platters for 40GB drives, they might not be tooled for
it. Modern platters might not have the same material
stackup (plating). Especially as modern drives are
vertical recording (with holder layer underneath)
versus the previous horizontal recording technique.
The magnetics are different at the head level.

Paul

 

[Paul]

I never heard of that radio system, but I doubt it's available here. I
cant even get a good cellphone signal from my house, I have to walk up
the hill. This is one reason I keep a landline, plus for dialup net.

I found an example of a system for rural Internet.
They're doing something like this, for a few users in a
province in Canada. (In other words, where other systems
are more practical, they're connected with something else.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopy_(wireless)

The summary chart at the top, says it can go as far
as 120 miles, and uses signals in the 900Mhz band.

That's the kind of thing my sister has. It was supposed
to use some kind of radio signal. I don't know if that
is the exact system or not. Or even the same frequency
band. But at least now, I've seen an example of how they
would build one.

Paul