How do I include quotation marks in a TOC field code?

[Guest]

In Word 2003, I am trying to create a TOC entry that includes quotation
marks. For example: "Relative pronouns: use of "that," "which," "who," and
"whose"" The problem is that the TOC field code stops the TOC entry at the
first quotation mark. Thus, the table of contents reads: "Relative pronouns:
use of " Is there a way around this limitation?

 

[Jezebel]

I can't re-create your problem: the TOC entry works exactly as expected when
I try it, with the entire text included. Personally, I think your text would
be a more readable if you used italics, in which case the problem wouldn't
arise, anyway. (And in this case, the commas belong outside the quotes,
too.)

 

[Guest]

Thanks. I like the italics idea. It's a simple fix that I hadn't thought of.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

FWIW, commas belong inside the quotes in the U.S., outside in the U.K. If
you use italics, the commas should be italicized.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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all may benefit.

 

[Jezebel]

I think that's a tad sweeping. The commas belong inside the quotes for
speech in all cases (at least, that's the textbook approach); but outside if
the quoted item is something other than speech, as in this case.

The typography of punctuation is a whole different kettle of fish ...
but italicising the commas would be wrong in this case, because the italics
refer specifically to the word, not the list.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I quote from "Words into Type," 3rd ed.: "Commas, colons, and semicolons are
set in the typeface (italic or boldface) of the preceding word. Quotation
marks, exclamation points, question marks, and parentheses are set according
to the overall context of a sentence." This is also the recommendation of
several books I own on using type. Again, this may be a US vs. UK
convention.

It is indisputably the U.S. convention always to put periods and commas
inside quotes, other punctuation inside or outside according to the context.
I won't pretend that this is logical or always even convenient, but to us
USians it looks tidier.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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all may benefit.

 

[Jezebel]

Not trying to make an issue of something that is really pretty subtle, but
that seems a bizarre choice of typographic bible. There was a discussion in
one of these forums about a year ago prompted by someone from one of the
larger US publishers, who had just reversed their house style policy on
exactly this point.

As for the commas inside/outside the quotes, although there is obviously no
right or wrong, it is anything but 'indisputable'; and logic is preferable
to convention. 'Consistency is the hobgoblin of petty minds…' to quote a
venerable Vespuccian.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I'm not sure why you consider it bizarre. You'd be surprised the number of
publishers' editors who still cite it. Perhaps you prefer
http://www.editorium.com/filecleaner/TH_22.htm or
http://web.mit.edu/comdor/editguide/other/punctuation.html. I could have
sworn I had seen that same prescription in Hart's Rules, but I can't find it
now, but I've seen numerous variations in various places.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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all may benefit.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I think we may have lost track of the problem here; I think Lilli is trying
to include quotation marks in TC fields, and that does indeed cause problems
because the TOC entry in the field has to be quoted. In general, it suffices
to "escape" the internal quotes by putting a backslash before them, but when
this fails, you can fudge with two single quotes instead of a double.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Guest]

I love the backslash suggestion. It worked for all of the internal quotation
marks except for the last one. Here's how it reads in the TOC:

Relative pronouns: Use of "that," "which," "who," and "whose\

I played around with spaces to try to get the last one to work, but to no
avail. Oh well, I think I'll use either the single quotation mark or italics
suggestion.

I had not even thought of whether to use italics for the commas. I
appreciate the discussion on that issue.

With regards to the comma issue, my office uses the Harbrace College
Handbook convention that says: "When using various marks of punctuation with
quoted words, phrases, or sentences, follow the conventions of American
printers. (1) Place the period and the comma within the quotation marks. (2)
Place the colon and the semicolon outside the quotation marks. (3) Place the
question mark, the exclamation point, and the dash within the quotation marks
when they apply only to the quoted matter. Place them outside when they do
not."

Thanks again to you both!

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I thought I remembered that there was a problem when the entry ended with a
quotation mark; you have confirmed that.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Guest]

o am using the backslash technique for all but the last quotation mark. For
that one, I'm using two single marks and then kerning to "condensed" by .5
points between the two marks. This looks identical to the double quotation
mark. Thanks so much for your help on this.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Glad I could help.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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all may benefit.

 

[Guest]

I have been facing this same problem and tried the \ approach, which worked,
ie the quote marks print, but the backslash printed also! How do I stop the
backslash from printing?

Ken K.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

ISTR that when this happens (I believe it happens only at the end of a
field?) the only recourse is to use two single quotes. But if this is
happening at the end of the field, make sure that you've got both the
"escaped" quotes and the quotes that are required to finish the field.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Guest]

Actually it happens anywhere it the field that I put the backslash. I guess
I will have to go with italics instead of quotes.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

Italics will work and are often a preferable option, but the backslash
should work. If you are working with a non-English version of Word, it's
possible that the escape character is something different.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.

 

[Guest]

Ken,

Here is an example of what I ended up using:

{tc "§ 3.30. Relative pronouns: use of \"that,\" \"which,\" \"who,\" and
\"whose''" \l 3}

In the table of contents, it reads:

§ 3.30. Relative pronouns: use of "that," "which," "who," and "whose"

Maybe looking at this carefully will give you some things to try to get
yours to work. The suggestions to my initial post really helped me. Note that
in the above example, I used two single quotes for the quotation mark after
"whose" and condensed them by 0.2 pts in the character spacing tab under
Format - Font to make them mimmick a double quotation mark. Then I used a
true double quotation mark to end the tc line.

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I suspect that's the best you can manage. Yes, this is unsatisfactory, but
don't hold your breath waiting for a fix; MS is too busy dressing up the new
UI to be concerned with core functionality such as this.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

Email cannot be acknowledged; please post all follow-ups to the newsgroup so
all may benefit.