Heat from heatpipes probably damaged a memory chip.


S

Skybuck

Hello,

Accoring to memtest86+ at least one of the memory chips in Skybuck's
Dream PC from 2006 is damaged and has a bit error.

It turns out the memory chip was *new* from corsair which means it was
not touched by the plastic sticker tape incident.

This probably means that the bit error could have been caused by heat
expelled from the heatpipes of the top down cpu cooler (Scythe Zipang
CPU Cooler).

I have taken some pictures to show you guys and to get some response
from what you think killed it... (I am pretty convinced it was heat
from heatpipe and will probably change the orientation from the cpu
cooler again ?! hopefully for the last time... ;) I am not sure if
it's possible though but I might give it a try.)

Long ago somebody recommended I place the heatpipes near the big fan
at the top... now I kinda wish I had done that from the start it might
have saved a lot of damage...or maybe not ?!?
But now I think it could have... maybe sucking away air around
heatpipes is a good thing...

Anyway here are the pictures:

Main folder:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/

Picture 1:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic1BitErrorsDetected.JPG

Picture2:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic2HeatpipesAsSuspect.JPG

Picture3:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic3HeatpipesCloseUp.JPG

Picture4:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic4PlentyOfFans.JPG

Picture5:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic5LittleRoomForMemoryChips.JPG

Picture6:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic6SomeDustOnTopDownCPUCooler.JPG

Picture 7:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic7Overview.JPG

Picture8:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic8FailedChipWasNew.JPG


I was also wondering if it's maybe possible to not use dim1 which is
closest to the cpu ?!?
I doubt it though...anyway I think it's best to get those hot
heatpipes away from the memory chips...

I guess this was also kinda a experiment to see what would happen and
yup after many months... a memory chip got damaged ! So that pretty
much confirms the experiment for me: "heatpipes near memory chips not
a good idea ?!"

Let me know what you think and peace out !

For me this is becoming a drag... I have fixed this pc so many times
it's starting to bum-me-out.

Feels like I am fixing a formula 1 car or dragracing car all the
time ! LOL I am kinda fed up with it ! ;)

Heat is a killer that's for sure ! My next PC must be a "cool" and
"low heat" and "low power pc" otherwise I will go nuts ! ;) :) (And
hopefully have still somewhat decent performance ;))

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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T

The Central Screwtinizer

[...] otherwise I will go nuts !

That ship already sailed long ago, son...
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

Skybuck said:
Accoring to memtest86+ at least one of the memory chips in Skybuck's
Dream PC from 2006 is damaged and has a bit error.

It turns out the memory chip was *new* from corsair which means it was
not touched by the plastic sticker tape incident.

This probably means that the bit error could have been caused by heat
expelled from the heatpipes of the top down cpu cooler (Scythe Zipang
CPU Cooler).

I have taken some pictures to show you guys and to get some response
from what you think killed it... (I am pretty convinced it was heat
from heatpipe and will probably change the orientation from the cpu
cooler again ?! hopefully for the last time... ;) I am not sure if
it's possible though but I might give it a try.)

Long ago somebody recommended I place the heatpipes near the big fan
at the top... now I kinda wish I had done that from the start it might
have saved a lot of damage...or maybe not ?!?
But now I think it could have... maybe sucking away air around
heatpipes is a good thing...

Anyway here are the pictures:

Doesn't indicate heatpipes at fault; view doesn't show whether or not
heatpipes are touching chips or module circuit boards.

It looks like they're not touching, but I can't be sure. If they are,
you can protect them by placing cardboard between the pieces. If you
want to be fancy, get fish paper from an electronics supply.

Too many fans. Silly cooling setup. Memory doesn't mind heat --
notice Micron and Samsung specify 85-95 Celcius max. operating temp.
for their DDR2 chips.

Where are the chips? All I see are the modules, which have heatsinks
over the chips.

The only ways a heatpipe could have caused damage:

1. It pressed against a heatsink and made a chip glued to it pull away
from the circuit board.

2. It touched the edge of the circuit board and just happened to short
some copper plane or traces right at the edge. But I thought module
circuit boards were designed to leave a tiny bit of space between the
copper and the edges.

But it couldn't have been the heat because the contact area was too
small, even if the contact was against a heatsink.

You're not using the world's best memory because the chips are covered
by heatsinks, and Corsair admits that it uses UTT (UnTesTed) RAM
chips, rather than prime quality chips (will have actual
manufacturer's ID markings on chip packages).
I was also wondering if it's maybe possible to not use dim1 which is
closest to the cpu ?!?

Almost always.
I doubt it though...anyway I think it's best to get those hot
heatpipes away from the memory chips...

They probably don't matter.
 
S

SteveH

Skybuck said:
Hello,

I have taken some pictures to show you guys and to get some response
from what you think killed it... (I am pretty convinced it was heat

All those pictures show is that you live in a dusty environment and either
don't have air filters on your PC, or don't clean it enough.
 
C

Craig Sutton

For me this is becoming a drag... I have fixed this pc so many times
it's starting to bum-me-out.

Feels like I am fixing a formula 1 car or dragracing car all the
time ! LOL I am kinda fed up with it ! ;)

You still don't get it?

The problem is YOU messing with it you don't have a CLUE! I bought my
similar setup to yours at around the same time and havn't had single
problem.

Same ram,same m.b, same hd's
 
A

Archimedes' Lever

Doesn't indicate heatpipes at fault; view doesn't show whether or not
heatpipes are touching chips or module circuit boards.


It looks like they're not touching, but I can't be sure. If they are,
you can protect them by placing cardboard between the pieces. If you
want to be fancy, get fish paper from an electronics supply.


Too many fans. Silly cooling setup. Memory doesn't mind heat --
notice Micron and Samsung specify 85-95 Celcius max. operating temp.
for their DDR2 chips.


Where are the chips? All I see are the modules, which have heatsinks
over the chips.

The only ways a heatpipe could have caused damage:

1. It pressed against a heatsink and made a chip glued to it pull away
from the circuit board.

2. It touched the edge of the circuit board and just happened to short
some copper plane or traces right at the edge. But I thought module
circuit boards were designed to leave a tiny bit of space between the
copper and the edges.

But it couldn't have been the heat because the contact area was too
small, even if the contact was against a heatsink.

You're not using the world's best memory because the chips are covered
by heatsinks, and Corsair admits that it uses UTT (UnTesTed) RAM
chips, rather than prime quality chips (will have actual
manufacturer's ID markings on chip packages).


Almost always.


They probably don't matter.


From 2k6? The AMD CPUs then were very good at thermal management, and
if he did NOT overclock, the whole damned set-up is HUGE overkill.

The best way to manage your PCs thermals are to MONITOR them, and
observe what temperatures things are being raised to. DUH!
 
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A

Archimedes' Lever

You still don't get it?

The problem is YOU messing with it you don't have a CLUE! I bought my
similar setup to yours at around the same time and havn't had single
problem.

Same ram,same m.b, same hd's


Like I said, he is so clueless about ESD, that he probably *thinks* his
gear is protected while he futzes around with it.

I have been swapping hard drives, optical drives, sound cards, video
cards, etc. in my PC since I bought it in '04.

I keep the dust off the blades and tines.

I use several SATA drives as backups, and archives, and they get swapped
in and out ALL the time.

Never a problem from XP, through Vista, and now Windows 7.

HE is the problem, and ALL his posts he EVER made about his machines are
the absolute proof.
 
G

GMAN

Hello,

Accoring to memtest86+ at least one of the memory chips in Skybuck's
Dream PC from 2006 is damaged and has a bit error.

It turns out the memory chip was *new* from corsair which means it was
not touched by the plastic sticker tape incident.

This probably means that the bit error could have been caused by heat
expelled from the heatpipes of the top down cpu cooler (Scythe Zipang
CPU Cooler).

I have taken some pictures to show you guys and to get some response
from what you think killed it... (I am pretty convinced it was heat
from heatpipe and will probably change the orientation from the cpu
cooler again ?! hopefully for the last time... ;) I am not sure if
it's possible though but I might give it a try.)

Long ago somebody recommended I place the heatpipes near the big fan
at the top... now I kinda wish I had done that from the start it might
have saved a lot of damage...or maybe not ?!?
But now I think it could have... maybe sucking away air around
heatpipes is a good thing...

Anyway here are the pictures:

Main folder:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/

Picture 1:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic1BitErrorsDetected.JP
G

Picture2:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic2HeatpipesAsSuspect.J
PG

Picture3:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic3HeatpipesCloseUp.JPG

Picture4:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic4PlentyOfFans.JPG

Picture5:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic5LittleRoomForMemoryC
hips.JPG

Picture6:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic6SomeDustOnTopDownCPU
Cooler.JPG

Picture 7:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic7Overview.JPG

Picture8:
http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic8FailedChipWasNew.JPG


I was also wondering if it's maybe possible to not use dim1 which is
closest to the cpu ?!?
I doubt it though...anyway I think it's best to get those hot
heatpipes away from the memory chips...

I guess this was also kinda a experiment to see what would happen and
yup after many months... a memory chip got damaged ! So that pretty
much confirms the experiment for me: "heatpipes near memory chips not
a good idea ?!"

Let me know what you think and peace out !

For me this is becoming a drag... I have fixed this pc so many times
it's starting to bum-me-out.

Feels like I am fixing a formula 1 car or dragracing car all the
time ! LOL I am kinda fed up with it ! ;)

Heat is a killer that's for sure ! My next PC must be a "cool" and
"low heat" and "low power pc" otherwise I will go nuts ! ;) :) (And
hopefully have still somewhat decent performance ;))

Bye,
Skybuck.

From looking at the picture of how you have the CPU heatsink attached, you
should have the heatpipes facting towards the back of the case close to the
exaust fans. in that Antec 1200 case
 
G

GMAN

http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic2HeatpipesAsSuspect.
JPG

Doesn't indicate heatpipes at fault; view doesn't show whether or not
heatpipes are touching chips or module circuit boards.

http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic3HeatpipesCloseUp.JP
G

It looks like they're not touching, but I can't be sure. If they are,
you can protect them by placing cardboard between the pieces. If you
want to be fancy, get fish paper from an electronics supply.


Too many fans. Silly cooling setup. Memory doesn't mind heat --
notice Micron and Samsung specify 85-95 Celcius max. operating temp.
for their DDR2 chips.

Too many fans my ass, that an Antec 1200 case and its highly rated among
enthusiasts. Along with its older sibling the Antec 900.


http://members.home.nl/hbthouppermans/MemoryCorruption/Pic8FailedChipWasNew.JP
G

Where are the chips? All I see are the modules, which have heatsinks
over the chips.

The only ways a heatpipe could have caused damage:

1. It pressed against a heatsink and made a chip glued to it pull away
from the circuit board.

2. It touched the edge of the circuit board and just happened to short
some copper plane or traces right at the edge. But I thought module
circuit boards were designed to leave a tiny bit of space between the
copper and the edges.

But it couldn't have been the heat because the contact area was too
small, even if the contact was against a heatsink.

You're not using the world's best memory because the chips are covered
by heatsinks, and Corsair admits that it uses UTT (UnTesTed) RAM
chips, rather than prime quality chips (will have actual
manufacturer's ID markings on chip packages).


Almost always.

Agreed, he needs to reverse how he has that heatsink mounted
 
S

Skybuck

Skybuckwrote:


All those pictures show is that you live in a dusty environment and either
don't have air filters on your PC, or don't clean it enough.

Which gives me a new interesting theory:

The Scythe Zipang is a top down cooler... which could mean it blew
dust into the memory chips from above... and somehow that tiny little
bit of dust caused a short circuit in the memory chip ! ;)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck

Another theory/hypothesis which I am slighty worried about is the
following:

"Water vapor from the dust filters was blown towards the memory chips
and was blown into the memory chips which caused a short circuit".

Not so long ago I cleaned the pc-case dust filters while the pc was
running... I decided not to dry the dust filters thoroughly because a
kid on youtube also didn't try them thoroughly... I just made sure
most of the moisture was gone... just little bit of moisture was left.

So I wonder if it's possible for tiny little micro drupplets of water
to float through the air and kill a chip ?!?

To me this seems unlikely but reality is usually more strange than
fantasy ! ;)

One last theory/hypothesis which I already wrote about in the past is:
"pc is not grounded, and me touching pc causes static electricic
feedback into the pc, since motherboard(s) is/are known to have some
leakage, so reversed path seems plausible".

I will probably call an electrician to check out and change the power
sockets with "grounding power sockets"... I am curious if he will
discovery anything about the power sockets... like maybe no grounding
wire present :)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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T

Toolpackinmama

Skybuck said:
Not so long ago I cleaned the pc-case dust filters while the pc was
running... I decided not to dry the dust filters thoroughly because a
kid on youtube also didn't try them thoroughly...

Is this guy for real? Or is this some kind of parody, like SPINALTAP?
 
L

larry moe 'n curly

Skybuck said:
The Scythe Zipang is a top down cooler... which could mean it blew
dust into the memory chips from above... and somehow that tiny little
bit of dust caused a short circuit in the memory chip ! ;)

Not unless the computer was next to a busy metal lathe or milling
machine.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Toolpackinmama said:
Is this guy for real? Or is this some kind of parody, like SPINALTAP?

Real, can't find the video of the kid...

But search for antec 1200 and you'll see plenty of people washing their dust
filters with water ! ;)

Makes ya wonder doesn't it ! ;) :)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Norman Peelman said:
Nothing wrong with that as long as you let them dry out.

But then one needs to wait... which is "down time"... and might be
unneccessary ?
(Also cleaning it dry takes more time and toiletpaper ! ;))

The real question is:

What happens if it's slightly wet/moisturish ;)

Anybody know ? ;) :) =D

Bye,
Skybuck ;) =D
 
C

Capt. Cave Man

What happens if you just run the system without the dust filter on
until it dries? Would it be so bad? Oh wait, why not get extra dust
filters so you can rotate them out for cleaning...


Go buy a REAL blower system, place it in the next room, or in the wall,
and filter THAT on the intake side, then ALL the air it forces into the
PC will be clean, and the only difference is the pipe (hose) leading into
the PC from the mystery location. 4" Pipe should work well.

Then, you could use an automotive filter on the front end of the thing.
The highest tech consumer level filter you can get, dollar for dollar.

Goddamned overtly retarded cross posting DUMBFUCKS!
 
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S

Skybuck Flying

Norman Peelman said:
What happens if you just run the system without the dust filter on until
it dries? Would it be so bad? Oh wait, why not get extra dust filters so
you can rotate them out for cleaning...

I thought about the idea of extra dust filters... might be a nice idea for
antec in the future ! Why didn't they think of it ! ;) :)

I would still like to know the answer to my question:

What happens if the air in the room is moisterish... for example... suppose
I take a shower... and there is this gas burning near the pc... lot's of
gasses being burned and expelled into the air...

What will the effect of burned gas be on for example the asus motherboard
?!?

I am beginning to suspect that the asus motherboard in combination with
burned gasses, some moisture and heat... is corroding or so... ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
D

david

Sorry,Zootal... I've been dealing with "real world" printed circuit
boards a long time. I might even venture that I was possibly repairing
them before you were born.

I've repaired marine electronics from sunken boats, portable two-way
radios found in sewers, pagers that went swimming in toilets, dispatch
consoles that have had the "Pepsi Treatment" (lattes and mochas are
worse..but "PT" is the generic term), and radio base stations doused in
rat pee for years.

I know what can happens from "exposure".

Yes, early PC mobos were "bare-assed traces", but any reasonable mobo
made in the last 10-15 years has some form of coating. Your "finger
touch" doesn't fly.

Soldermask is not a conformal coating.
 
G

GMAN

I thought about the idea of extra dust filters... might be a nice idea for
antec in the future ! Why didn't they think of it ! ;) :)


Antec sells them as replacements. Go to their online store.
 
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D

daytripper

You do it, and get back to us with your data. A lot of people on
sci.electronics.design know the facts, no matter what you beleive.

Must....not.....respond.....
 
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