HDD Image Backup Restore Software Recommendations

[Bill in Co.]

That seems to me to be a very convoluted partitioning system.

No, not really.

Data is data. I see no reason to segregate music, video, and other data
files.

The reason is simple. Let's say I have 40 GB of music data (on E and 40
GB of video data (on F,

Let's also say I have 40 GB reserved for C: (with ALL programs, apps, and
data, EXCEPT for the large stuff above). (but actually it comes to only
20 GB total for me in actual use, so I only need to image or clone that
amount).

Now let's say I want to make a system backup. I can image (or clone) the
C: partition (with about 20 GB in use) in very little time, and restore it,
if needbe.

Can you imagine how long it would take if I had ALL of the above on C:?

But you're right, I could have stored all the music and video in one
partition, but chose not to. If I did that, I'd use C: for programs and
data, and a second partition for the music and data. (I'm also using a D:
partition to store some other backup and archive work related to the C:
stuff, which is just convenient for me)

If you evere decide to start from scratch, I would *highly recommend*
one or two partitions. Period. That is, C: would contain:

1. OS, apps, *and* data (the whole kit and kaboodle)

or

2. OS and apps (and your second partition would contain *all* your
data). This way, you won't have *any* "apps expecting certain drive
letters."

Explained above.

 

[Daave]

No, not really.

I beg to differ.

The reason is simple. Let's say I have 40 GB of music data (on E
and 40 GB of video data (on F,

Let's also say I have 40 GB reserved for C: (with ALL programs, apps,
and data, EXCEPT for the large stuff above). (but actually it
comes to only 20 GB total for me in actual use, so I only need to
image or clone that amount).

Now let's say I want to make a system backup. I can image (or
clone) the C: partition (with about 20 GB in use) in very little
time, and restore it, if needbe.

Can you imagine how long it would take if I had ALL of the above on
C:?

Only your first image would take a very long time. Subsequent
*incremental* images wouldn't, though.

Furthermore, it would make *much* more sense to have the following
scenario (if you are interested in minimizing imaging/restoring time):

C: would contain OS and apps *only*

D: would contain *all* your data -- large or small, doesn't matter

Spreading out your data over three partitions is illogical. And I hope
you didn't install any programs on a partition other than C:. If you
did, then you're making your life more difficult than it needs to be!

But you're right, I could have stored all the music and video in one
partition, but chose not to.

You chose a more convoluted scheme.

If I did that, I'd use C: for programs
and data, and a second partition for the music and data.

Again, you might as well keep *all* your data together, especially if
you are interested in minimizing your imaging/restoring time.

(I'm also
using a D: partition to store some other backup and archive work
related to the C: stuff, which is just convenient for me)

I hope that your D: partition isn't on the same drive. If it is, that's
a bad idea!

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

OK, sorry, I missed that.
B: was reserved for the old 5.25 floppy drives, a thing of the past.

A minor point, but no, not exactly. It was reserved for *any* floppy
drive, and didn't have to be 5.25" (although it was 5.25" on my
machine, as I said).

 

[Bill in Co.]

I beg to differ.


Only your first image would take a very long time. Subsequent
*incremental* images wouldn't, though.

I don't use incremental images. I prefer making a fresh and complete
image, not one relying on incrementals at the time I decide to make a
backup. It doesn't take that long (10 minutes in my case, for a completely
new image)

Furthermore, it would make *much* more sense to have the following
scenario (if you are interested in minimizing imaging/restoring time):

C: would contain OS and apps *only*

D: would contain *all* your data -- large or small, doesn't matter

I disagree. I don't want my personal documents (which change frequently)
stored with my large music and video (which I rarely need to backup).

But the personal data needs to be saved and/or restored along with the
respective programs, and it is, in my case (all on C.

Spreading out your data over three partitions is illogical. And I hope
you didn't install any programs on a partition other than C:.

NEVER! Thats a no-no from the get go.

If you did, then you're making your life more difficult than it needs to
be!

Preachin to the choir on that one.

You chose a more convoluted scheme.

Not really all that convoluted!

Again, you might as well keep *all* your data together, especially if
you are interested in minimizing your imaging/restoring time.

See above.

 

[Bill in Co.]

A minor point, but no, not exactly. It was reserved for *any* floppy
drive, and didn't have to be 5.25" (although it was 5.25" on my
machine, as I said).

But in practice, wasn't A: always used for the 3.25", and B: for the 5.25",
on an IBM PC clone (i.e., not Apple, Atari, etc)? Or maybe I'm
forgetting...

 

[bobster]

Bill,

You said:

"One more question:
If you boot up and press <F12> to select your second internal SATA drive
(which is a clone of the primary C: drive), and Windows boots up, is E: now
your boot drive letter, or is it automatically reassigned as C:, as seen in
windows explorer?"

The drive letters switch. In this case, "E" becomes "C" and what was
previously "C" becomes "E". If you then reboot without using F12, it boots
to the default HD in slot 1 which then is assigned "C" once again. Sounds
confusing but as Anna has pointed out, the drive letters change depending on
which HD is invoked rather than the physical position it resides in.

===================================================

Bill,

You said,

"It's interesting that D:, E:, and F: aren't in there, and/or I may be
still
unclear on something."

Yes - they are there. As I said, "D" is my DVD-RW drive, and "E" and "F"
are my extra HDs, all fully bootable. G, H, I, J, and K are as I noted.
I
have no floppy so "A" is missing and I can't remember what "B" was
originally used for as it too is missing.

OK, sorry, I missed that.
B: was reserved for the old 5.25 floppy drives, a thing of the past.

One more question:
If you boot up and press <F12> to select your second internal SATA drive
(which is a clone of the primary C: drive), and Windows boots up, is E: now
your boot drive letter, or is it automatically reassigned as C:, as seen in
windows explorer?

When I go to Windows Explorer and look at "My Computer", the drive letters
are just as I stated, with "D" being my DVD-RW drive. I do have a remnant
"D" listing under "My Documents" that seems to be a holdover from stuff
transferred several years ago when I moved from Win 98SE to XP when I got
my
Dell 530. It seems to have nothing to do with anything current.

Bill,

You asked,

"How so? Are you doing that by pressing F12 at bootup, or does
a menu always come up at boot time to ask which one to boot to."

When the Dell logo appears on bootup, I press F12 for several seconds
which
initiates the boot options list that includes my "C", "E" and "F" HDs,
and
my DVD-RW "D" drive. "C" of course is the default so if I let the boot
sequence continue without pressing F-12, that's the one it boots to.

I see. Yeah, I'm familiar with that bootup option (and occasionally use
it
to boot to a DOS flash thumbnail drive, for example).

My other drive letters are for non-bootable stuff, xD/SM Drive "H", SD
Card Drive "J", Compact Flash Drive, "G", Memory Stick Drive, "I" and
Removable Disk, "K" for an external Camera SD reader.
Most of the latter stuff I don't often use.

It's interesting that D:, E:, and F: aren't in there, and/or I may be
still
unclear on something. When you normally boot up, and then use windows
explorer to look at your second internal drive in windows explorer, which
is
storing the clone of C:, what drive letter shows up for it? (I'm
guessing
it says D

IF, and that's a big if, one needs only a fast, ultra reliable way of a
complete "C" drive backup, the cloned "hot spare" approach is hard to
beat.
Although I like Casper because of the speed of the "smart clone" feature,

Yeah, I'm aware of that advantage (Anna has made the point

there are other clone packages out there, some free ones that work well
but
are slower than Casper.

Just my biased opinion -- As always, YMMV ;-)

Like most of us.

I have several generational (different dated) image copies on my internal
backup drive, so imaging is working best for me, at least at this point in
time. (But I was still a bit curious about Casper, that's all).

Bill,

I have 3 identical WDC 3200AAKS gig drives. Their drive letters are "C"
in internal position 1, "F" in internal position 2, and "E" in the
external
eSATA connected Vantec enclosure. They show up as 3 independent local
disk
drives in "My Computer". The "C" drive is partitioned (as delivered
from
Dell) into three partitions:

Disk 1, Partition 1 [Dell OEM] 47.03 MB
Local Disk (C) 2 294.74 GB
Disk 1, Partition 3 [Dell PC Restore] 3.30 GB

Like you I have a Dell, but I wasn't counting those hidden partitions (I
have the same thing), as those are not assigned drive letters.

And in my case, unlike yours, my source drive now has C:, D:, E:, and F:
(but I rarely need to backup the last two partitions, however).

C:, of course, is most critical, as it has the majority of everything on
it,
and is the one I routinely backup (to an image in my case).

I have never changed the factory delivered partitioning of the original
2007
Dell configuration. When I do a Casper clone operation, this
configuration
is cloned intact from the "C" drive to the target drive, either "F" or
"E"
depending on which one I select. My computer can be booted from any one
of
the three by selection during the boot sequence.

How so? Are you doing that by pressing F12 at bootup, or does a menu
always come up at boot time to ask which one to boot to.

The default boot drive is
the "C". As I recall, the letters "F" and "E" were autoselected as they
were the next unused letters on my computer when I installed the
additional
hard drives

I was going to ask you how it got to F: Wow. That's *quite* a jump
(from
C: all the way to F:

I must confess that I have had no experience with cloning individual
partitions of the main "C" drive but I believe individual partitions can
be
cloned if the target drive has sufficient un-partitioned space.

I think Anna has testified to that too, but I can't recall for sure now
(it
was awhile ago). Several of us had an extended discussion on that in
here,
with some folks saying it couldn't be done, and some saying it could be
done
(in Casper). I believe the end result (according to Anna) was that
individual partitions *could* indeed be cloned to the target drive
(assuming
the target drive had sufficient un-partitioned space). Of course, for
each
one you do that for, that will end up adding a new drive letter.

I would
refer you to the Casper site for more information or to their support
function which is very responsive.

Casper website: http://www.fssdev.com/default.aspx

Some time ago I checked out their website and even downloaded the manual,
for an older version, but I don't recall the answer now.

Casper Support: (e-mail address removed)

The above support address takes you directly to a guy named Jim, who
wrote most of the Casper software

I


bobster wrote:
Pete,

Like Anna, I also have no connection with Casper other than buying v5
from them a year ago and yesterday upgrading to v6.

Sounds like Casper will not do what you want, i.e. migrate a bootable
"C"
drive from one machine to a different one.

Sorry if my first post sounded like a commercial for Casper. And I also
might have misunderstood what it is you wanted to do.

The reason I like Casper is that I can keep a "hot spare" hard drive
either
in my second internal slot, or at the ready in an external eSATA
connected
Vantec enclosure,(actually, HDs being so cheap, I do both). I
automatically
update weekly or more often manually on occasion. If my regular "C"
drive
fails, or I muck it up by screwing around, I can get back on line in
about
45 seconds by re-booting into the other internal/ external drive.

I am curious about something here (I'm only used to ATI and disk
imaging,
and know that much better), but would like some more clarification on
this.

Using Casper to make a clone of your source drive C: to your second
*internal* drive, does your second internal drive then show up in
windows
explorer with a different drive letter, like D:, or is it hidden?

Or let's say your source drive has two partitions, C: and D:. Assuming
you
only wanted to clone the C: partition, what would windows explorer show
for
the drive letter on your second internal drive after cloning? E:?

Or suppose you wanted to clone BOTH C: and D: partitions. What would
explorer show for your second internal drive letters after the process
was
completed in windows explorer? (I'm guessing E: and F - is that
right?):

Some of this matters to me since I have some apps expecting certain
drive
letters). My source drive now has 4 partitions (C, D, E, F), and my
backup
drive used to store images only has one partition (G). (The E: and F:
partitions are for (the rather large) music and video files,
respectively).

 

[Daave]

I don't use incremental images. I prefer making a fresh and
complete image, not one relying on incrementals at the time I decide
to make a backup. It doesn't take that long (10 minutes in my case,
for a completely new image)

Your choice, of course. But Acronis gives you this option, and you can
certainly take advantage of it if you choose to do so. It's easy and you
could even use one partition as was dicussed earlier.

That being said, I do see the value of keeping data separate from your
OS and apps.

I disagree. I don't want my personal documents (which change
frequently) stored with my large music and video (which I rarely need
to backup).

That is your choice. But it's still easier to keep all your data
together.

Data can be backed up incrementally, too.

But the personal data needs to be saved and/or restored along with the
respective programs, and it is, in my case (all on C.

No, it doesn't. Data does not need to reside on the same partition as
your programs. This is part of the convoluted part! You only *think* it
needs to be there. And this leads to the other convoluted part where
your "apps [are] expecting certain drive letters." It does *not* have to
be this way! *That's* the convoluted part!

 

[Anna]

Anna, see my other post this morning. I would like to know if you have
actually done the operation you describe, cloning a boot-partitioned primary
drive to a secondary drive, then being able to immediately start using all
of the drives without further problems. As I describe in that other post,
when years ago I did the functional equivalent of this by installing Windows
on a new primary HDD and installing my old untouched smaller HDD, also a HDD
with a primary OS partition, the Windows OS running on the new HDD would
not read the older second HDD I moved to the secondary. It recognized that
the older HDD was there but claimed it was unreadable, and I never could get
it to see what was on it until I repartyioned the entire old HDD as a data
drive rather than a boot HDD.

(SNIP)
--
Pete B


Pete...
I assume this is your earlier post you're referring to, yes?...

<quote>
Bill, I have never actually cloned a primary HDD to a new internal secondary
HDD (already configured in the BIOS), but years ago I did try to do the
following when I was running Win2K (not that the OS matters I think): I had
purchased a new HDD of higher capacity than the current primary boot drive.
I installed the new drive as the master drive in the BIOS and moved the old
primary drive (with the current OS and software installed) to be the
secondary drive as set in the BIOS. I formatted the new primary drive and
installed Win2K on it so it would boot and run.

My hope was that I could copy all the non-Windows stuff off of the secondary
(former original) drive to the new primary drive. But try as I might,
Windows would not recognize the secondary drive at all because it was
configured with a primary bootable partition (naturally). No matter what, I
was never able to find a way to actually use or access that
original/secondary HDD to recover any of the stuff on it (at least not that
way). The new install of Win2K knew the drive was there, it provided a
logical letter for it (D as I recall), but it would just tell me it did not
have the proper type of partition to run as a secondary non-boot drive (and
warned me that if I repartitioned it as a data drive, kiss the current data
goodbye forever).

AFAIK this dual-boot stuff is a Windows thing accomplished using the boot
record and separate partitions on the one primary HDD, because the BIOS
itself only allows one HDD to be the boot drive; you can have different
boot **partitions** with different OSs that can be used to run an OS, but
the hardware itself only allows one master BIOS-bootable HDD.

I finally went back and reinstalled my old drive, recovered all the files I
needed to tape backups, then just reinstalled it again as a secondary slave
drive and reformatted and repartitioned it from scratch as a data drive (I
still have that PC running that way for my son to use).

Point is, I do not think you can just drop in a new added HDD and expect it
to run as a second bootable HDD. The BIOS would probably not allow that
since it requires that only one physical HDD be the one with bootable
partitions (else you could not set it to start up without asking which HDD
to boot from every time, and that would be a PITA).

That was my experience anyway. I have partitioned my current HDD at one
time to run two different OSs, Windows and Linux (did this using Acronis
Disk Director to make two software boot partitions, piece of cake), and used
the dual-boot startup function, but both boot partitions were on the same
HDD, my only current HDD in this PC. That is different though, I do not see
any way in my BIOS to specify two separate physical boot HDDs, the only
option is to specify a particular drive as the boot drive in all cases. It
is the boot record on the HDD itself that performs the dual boot function.

That's my experience anyway for what it is worth.

--
Pete B
</quote>

Assuming I correctly understand your query & objective...

I've undertaken (or have been involved in one way or another) that type of
disk-cloning operation hundreds, if not more than a thousand times over the
years.

But just to ensure that I *do* understand your query, is this the basic
scenario?...

1. You're working with your day-to-day bootable HDD (what you refer to as a
"primary drive") and now you clone the contents of that HDD to a new HDD
which serves as a secondary HDD during the disk-cloning operation.

2. So as a consequence of this (successful) disk-cloning operation you now
have two bootable, presumably functional HDDs, right? (The OS on each is
irrelevant to this scenario).

3. Since you're apparently working with PATA (not SATA) HDDs, I take it you
install the new HDD as Primary Master replacing the position of the former
primary HDD, right?

4. And you install the "old" HDD as a secondary HDD, either as Primary Slave
or anywhere on the secondary IDE channel, yes?

5. So under those circumstances the system will boot to the "new" HDD that
has been installed as Primary Master and obviously detect the "old" HDD as a
secondary drive. That seems perfectly clear, right?

6. Now you want to copy off this or that data from the old (now secondary)
HDD onto the new HDD. There should be no problem in doing so. Presumably the
system recognizes both HDDs but will boot to the Primary Master HDD.

What I can't quite grasp is why you would be copying data from the "old" HDD
onto the "new" HDD. If you cloned the contents of that former HDD to the
latter HDD then obviously *all* the data on the "old" HDD would be on the
"new" HDD, yes?

(But obviously I must be misunderstanding what's happening here.)

7. If, for some reason, you desire the system to boot to the secondary HDD
(we're assuming, of course, that drive contains a bootable OS) you would
ordinarily change the BIOS boot priority order to force a boot to that drive
or alternatively temporarily connect that secondary HDD as PM should (for
some reason you do not want to change the appropriate BIOS setting) that be
your choice.

The process I've described is pretty much "cut & dried" and ordinarily there
should be no problem in manipulating those boots per the above. But are you
indicating that for one reason or another you've never successfully
manipulated these boots along the lines we're discussing?

NOW THAT I RE:READ YOUR POST I THINK I MAY HAVE A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF
THE SCENARIO...

1. You're actually referring to a situation where you fresh-installed an OS
on a new HDD, installed that HDD as Primary Master, then moved the old HDD
(containing an OS) to a secondary channel.

So there's no disk-cloning operation involved or implicated here. Do I have
it right now?

2. So you attempt to move data from the old HDD to the new one but you say
the system did not recognize the old HDD or it recognized the drive but
indicated the data was "unreadable"? Was that the problem?

3. And the only way you could get to utilize that old HDD was to format that
drive? (Actually you say "repartyioned" but I'm assuming you're referring to
a re:formatting of the drive). So consequently all the former data on that
drive was gone.

4. And you're attributing that problem to the fact that the old HDD
contained a bootable OS?

Do I now correctly understand the situation?

If so, who knows what happened? There are a multitude of causes for that
type of situation including jumper/cabling/BIOS setting configuration, etc.,
problems. And to truly diagnose it from this time & distance is well-nigh
impossible. All I can tell you is that the fact that the old HDD contained a
bootable OS had really nothing to do with the problem you describe (again,
assuming that I correctly understand the problem as you describe it).
Anna

 

[Anna]

Anna wrote: (SNIP)

Anna

Yes, I understand that.
But what if Pete just chooses to boot to the second internal drive for now
(because of some perhaps temporary issue with the primary drive), and run
Windows from there? What drive letters are being used in this case?
(After all, in the registry, most program drive letter references are to
the C: partition, and expect that). If the secondary SATA drive shows C:
as the boot partition, like the original, then there would be no issue for
me. (keep in mind the original drive is still in there, but we chose to
boot to the secondary drive; and that we have NOT physically swapped out
the drives in this example)

Bill:
The drive letter assignments on the cloned internal HDD (now serving as the
boot drive) will be identical to the drive letter assignments on the
previous "source" HDD, i.e,, the I: drive letter will be assigned the C:
drive letter, the J: drive letter will be assigned the F: drive letter, etc.

For all practical purposes the cloned HDD now serving as the boot drive will
be a mirror of the drive that was cloned with respect to the drive letter
assignments.
Anna

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

But in practice, wasn't A: always used for the 3.25", and B: for the 5.25",
on an IBM PC clone (i.e., not Apple, Atari, etc)? Or maybe I'm
forgetting...

No. In the earliest days, before PCs had hard drives, both A: and B:
were used for 5.25" drives, which were all there were then. Later, how
they were used (and even whether both were used) depended on the needs
and desires of the computer's owner.

For example, in the 3.5" days, some people liked to have two 3.5"
drives because they often copied from one diskette to another, and
having two 3.5" drives made it a little faster.

 

[Bill in Co.]

I don't use incremental images. I prefer making a fresh and
complete image, not one relying on incrementals at the time I decide
to make a backup. It doesn't take that long (10 minutes in my case,
for a completely new image)

Your choice, of course. But Acronis gives you this option, and you can
certainly take advantage of it if you choose to do so. It's easy and you
could even use one partition as was dicussed earlier.

That being said, I do see the value of keeping data separate from your
OS and apps.

I disagree. I don't want my personal documents (which change
frequently) stored with my large music and video (which I rarely need
to backup).

That is your choice. But it's still easier to keep all your data
together.

Data can be backed up incrementally, too.

But the personal data needs to be saved and/or restored along with the
respective programs, and it is, in my case (all on C.

No, it doesn't. Data does not need to reside on the same partition as
your programs. This is part of the convoluted part! You only *think* it
needs to be there. And this leads to the other convoluted part where
your "apps [are] expecting certain drive letters." It does *not* have to
be this way! *That's* the convoluted part!

By "personal data needs to be saved and/or restored along with the
respective programs, and it is, in my case (all on C." I mean for me.
"Needs to be" is probably the wrong phrase - sorry.

What I was trying to say is that it's a bit foolish to try and save JUST the
programs on one partition, and all the programs configuration and data (and
the stuff in the \Program Files directories, etc, by implication), on
another.

 

[Bill in Co.]

Bill,

You said:

"One more question:
If you boot up and press <F12> to select your second internal SATA drive
(which is a clone of the primary C: drive), and Windows boots up, is E:
now
your boot drive letter, or is it automatically reassigned as C:, as seen
in
windows explorer?"

The drive letters switch. In this case, "E" becomes "C" and what was
previously "C" becomes "E". If you then reboot without using F12, it
boots
to the default HD in slot 1 which then is assigned "C" once again. Sounds
confusing but as Anna has pointed out, the drive letters change depending
on which HD is invoked rather than the physical position it resides in.

No, that part doesn't sound so confusing, since it actually clears some
things up for me. Thanks. So no matter which drive you boot to, that
drive ends up looking like C:, which is most desireable.



===================================================

Bill,

You said,

"It's interesting that D:, E:, and F: aren't in there, and/or I may be
still
unclear on something."

Yes - they are there. As I said, "D" is my DVD-RW drive, and "E" and "F"
are my extra HDs, all fully bootable. G, H, I, J, and K are as I noted.
I
have no floppy so "A" is missing and I can't remember what "B" was
originally used for as it too is missing.

OK, sorry, I missed that.
B: was reserved for the old 5.25 floppy drives, a thing of the past.

One more question:
If you boot up and press <F12> to select your second internal SATA drive
(which is a clone of the primary C: drive), and Windows boots up, is E:
now
your boot drive letter, or is it automatically reassigned as C:, as seen
in
windows explorer?

When I go to Windows Explorer and look at "My Computer", the drive
letters
are just as I stated, with "D" being my DVD-RW drive. I do have a
remnant
"D" listing under "My Documents" that seems to be a holdover from stuff
transferred several years ago when I moved from Win 98SE to XP when I got
my
Dell 530. It seems to have nothing to do with anything current.

Bill,

You asked,

"How so? Are you doing that by pressing F12 at bootup, or
does
a menu always come up at boot time to ask which one to boot
to."

When the Dell logo appears on bootup, I press F12 for several seconds
which
initiates the boot options list that includes my "C", "E" and "F" HDs,
and
my DVD-RW "D" drive. "C" of course is the default so if I let the boot
sequence continue without pressing F-12, that's the one it boots to.

I see. Yeah, I'm familiar with that bootup option (and occasionally use
it
to boot to a DOS flash thumbnail drive, for example).

My other drive letters are for non-bootable stuff, xD/SM Drive "H", SD
Card Drive "J", Compact Flash Drive, "G", Memory Stick Drive, "I" and
Removable Disk, "K" for an external Camera SD reader.
Most of the latter stuff I don't often use.

It's interesting that D:, E:, and F: aren't in there, and/or I may be
still
unclear on something. When you normally boot up, and then use windows
explorer to look at your second internal drive in windows explorer, which
is
storing the clone of C:, what drive letter shows up for it? (I'm
guessing
it says D

IF, and that's a big if, one needs only a fast, ultra reliable way of a
complete "C" drive backup, the cloned "hot spare" approach is hard to
beat.
Although I like Casper because of the speed of the "smart clone"
feature,

Yeah, I'm aware of that advantage (Anna has made the point

there are other clone packages out there, some free ones that work well
but
are slower than Casper.

Just my biased opinion -- As always, YMMV ;-)

Like most of us.

I have several generational (different dated) image copies on my internal
backup drive, so imaging is working best for me, at least at this point
in
time. (But I was still a bit curious about Casper, that's all).

bobster wrote:
Bill,

I have 3 identical WDC 3200AAKS gig drives. Their drive letters are
"C"
in internal position 1, "F" in internal position 2, and "E" in the
external
eSATA connected Vantec enclosure. They show up as 3 independent local
disk
drives in "My Computer". The "C" drive is partitioned (as delivered
from
Dell) into three partitions:

Disk 1, Partition 1 [Dell OEM] 47.03 MB
Local Disk (C) 2 294.74 GB
Disk 1, Partition 3 [Dell PC Restore] 3.30 GB

Like you I have a Dell, but I wasn't counting those hidden partitions (I
have the same thing), as those are not assigned drive letters.

And in my case, unlike yours, my source drive now has C:, D:, E:, and F:
(but I rarely need to backup the last two partitions, however).

C:, of course, is most critical, as it has the majority of everything on
it,
and is the one I routinely backup (to an image in my case).

I have never changed the factory delivered partitioning of the original
2007
Dell configuration. When I do a Casper clone operation, this
configuration
is cloned intact from the "C" drive to the target drive, either "F" or
"E"
depending on which one I select. My computer can be booted from any
one
of
the three by selection during the boot sequence.

How so? Are you doing that by pressing F12 at bootup, or does a menu
always come up at boot time to ask which one to boot to.

The default boot drive is
the "C". As I recall, the letters "F" and "E" were autoselected as
they
were the next unused letters on my computer when I installed the
additional
hard drives

I was going to ask you how it got to F: Wow. That's *quite* a jump
(from
C: all the way to F:

I must confess that I have had no experience with cloning individual
partitions of the main "C" drive but I believe individual partitions
can
be
cloned if the target drive has sufficient un-partitioned space.

I think Anna has testified to that too, but I can't recall for sure now
(it
was awhile ago). Several of us had an extended discussion on that in
here,
with some folks saying it couldn't be done, and some saying it could be
done
(in Casper). I believe the end result (according to Anna) was that
individual partitions *could* indeed be cloned to the target drive
(assuming
the target drive had sufficient un-partitioned space). Of course, for
each
one you do that for, that will end up adding a new drive letter.

I would
refer you to the Casper site for more information or to their support
function which is very responsive.

Casper website: http://www.fssdev.com/default.aspx

Some time ago I checked out their website and even downloaded the
manual,
for an older version, but I don't recall the answer now.

Casper Support: (e-mail address removed)

The above support address takes you directly to a guy named Jim, who
wrote most of the Casper software

I


bobster wrote:
Pete,

Like Anna, I also have no connection with Casper other than buying v5
from them a year ago and yesterday upgrading to v6.

Sounds like Casper will not do what you want, i.e. migrate a bootable
"C"
drive from one machine to a different one.

Sorry if my first post sounded like a commercial for Casper. And I
also
might have misunderstood what it is you wanted to do.

The reason I like Casper is that I can keep a "hot spare" hard drive
either
in my second internal slot, or at the ready in an external eSATA
connected
Vantec enclosure,(actually, HDs being so cheap, I do both). I
automatically
update weekly or more often manually on occasion. If my regular "C"
drive
fails, or I muck it up by screwing around, I can get back on line in
about
45 seconds by re-booting into the other internal/ external drive.

I am curious about something here (I'm only used to ATI and disk
imaging,
and know that much better), but would like some more clarification on
this.

Using Casper to make a clone of your source drive C: to your second
*internal* drive, does your second internal drive then show up in
windows
explorer with a different drive letter, like D:, or is it hidden?

Or let's say your source drive has two partitions, C: and D:.
Assuming
you
only wanted to clone the C: partition, what would windows explorer show
for
the drive letter on your second internal drive after cloning? E:?

Or suppose you wanted to clone BOTH C: and D: partitions. What would
explorer show for your second internal drive letters after the process
was
completed in windows explorer? (I'm guessing E: and F - is that
right?):

Some of this matters to me since I have some apps expecting certain
drive
letters). My source drive now has 4 partitions (C, D, E, F), and my
backup
drive used to store images only has one partition (G). (The E: and F:
partitions are for (the rather large) music and video files,
respectively).

 

[Bill in Co.]

Anna





Bill:
The drive letter assignments on the cloned internal HDD (now serving as
the
boot drive) will be identical to the drive letter assignments on the
previous "source" HDD, i.e,, the I: drive letter will be assigned the C:
drive letter, the J: drive letter will be assigned the F: drive letter,
etc.

For all practical purposes the cloned HDD now serving as the boot drive
will be a mirror of the drive that was cloned with respect to the drive
letter
assignments.

OK, I think I got it for now, thanks Anna. And this is just the way we
would want it (i.e., no matter which cloned drive you choose to boot up on,
it will be C:, at least for that session. Which is good news.

 

[Bill in Co.]

No. In the earliest days, before PCs had hard drives, both A: and B:
were used for 5.25" drives, which were all there were then. Later, how
they were used (and even whether both were used) depended on the needs
and desires of the computer's owner.

Oh yeah! You mean like on the original IBM PC (which I once had), that had
two 5.25 inch drives! I forgot that! (getting a bit senile here I guess)

Well, actually that's not the original IBM PC either, for that matter. I
think the original IBM PC only had a cassette drive option, IIRC. Never
had that one.

 

[Pete B]

But all that is in software. My point is that the physical machine has only one boot device in BIOS; it may be selectable among your installed drives, or it may be a CDROM, but there is only one **physical** boot device. All the rest depends on software installed or run by Windows. You cannot selectively choose a HDD to boot up from the BIOS at startup unlpess you do it manually and restart the machine again. In my BIOS, for example, I can specify a particular HDD or the CDROM as my boot device, but that one must do all the further software booting steps from software (usually in the boot sector).

Having said that, your software procedure does look like it would work well, but it is a software procedure, not a true machine boot device: the software says, instead of this BIOS device, start up another non-BIOS device and run that to run the OS. From what you say, Dell must have a software app in the boot sector that runs as part of the software bootup and operates on the BIOS to change the hardware boot selection and then restart the system. Neat trick but IMO a dangerous one).

What it sounds like anyway, but it would not work on my custom PC. The boot procedure does not have any such function on my Intel BIOS system. It would have to be software, such as the Acronis loader.

 

[Pete B]

My problem was when you got to step 6, Anna. The Windows OS would not see the second HDD because it was configured with a primary boot partition, which it said it could not read, so it would not allow me to see anything on it. (If you read my my example, you will see that I installed the new boot HDD unformatted and installed Windows on it, it was not a clone of the old drive; that was why I wanted to get the other non-Windows files from the other old drive which still had the original software from when it was the only HDD).

That was my experience anyway. Maybe Windows is different now and will be able to read a non-OS drive (other than the one it is currently running the OS from), I don't know I have never treid it, and I have never actually cloned a drive to test that out.

 

[Pete B]

I did not do anything..... sorry to disappoint you. Everything is the same as it always has been.

 

[Pete B]

I agree, using it, no matter what it does, will be better than doing it from scratch, so it is worth the price because I have got hundreds of apps installed on my PC over the years.

 

[Anna]

My problem was when you got to step 6, Anna. The Windows OS would not see
the second HDD because it was configured with a primary boot partition,
which it said it could not read, so it would not allow me to see anything on
it. (If you read my my example, you will see that I installed the new boot
HDD unformatted and installed Windows on it, it was not a clone of the old
drive; that was why I wanted to get the other non-Windows files from the
other old drive which still had the original software from when it was the
only HDD).

That was my experience anyway. Maybe Windows is different now and will be
able to read a non-OS drive (other than the one it is currently running the
OS from), I don't know I have never treid it, and I have never actually
cloned a drive to test that out.

--
Pete B


Pete:
As I indicated in my prior post...why you ran into that problem is beyond my
comprehension.

Again, all I can tell you is that there is no basic reason why the OS would
not detect a properly installed non-defective HDD that was now connected as
a secondary HDD merely because it had once served as the boot drive (or, as
you state, "configured with a primary boot partition"). The fact that the
now-secondary drive contained an OS is completely irrelevant. As long as the
system boots with the new HDD that secondary HDD will be detected by the
system.
Anna

 

[bobster]

Pete B,

Guess I didn't realize that other computers besides Dell don't always have a
function key (F12 in Dell) to select the bootup device. In my Dell 530, by
pressing F12, I am immediately taken to my BIOS start list, namely the three
HDs and the DVD drive where I can, by using arrow keys, select the one I
wish to boot to, press "enter" and 45 seconds later I am booted up to that
selected drive.

I find this exceedingly convenient as it allows me to test all kinds of
risky changes on one of the HDs knowing full well that if I render it
corrupt and/or unbootable I can reboot into one of the "good" HDs, then
clone its contents back to the corrupt drive, returning it to the former
"good" status. I have been using this configuration for a year or so and
have always been able to quickly and easily get back to a "good" HD
configuration. This approach may not be everyone's cup of tea but it has
served me well.

You said,

" From what you say, Dell must have a software app in the boot sector that
runs as part of the software bootup and operates on the BIOS to change the
hardware boot selection and then restart the system. Neat trick but IMO a
dangerous one)."

I agree, it is a neat trick but I fail to see the danger to which you refer.

But all that is in software. My point is that the physical machine has only
one boot device in BIOS; it may be selectable among your installed drives,
or it may be a CDROM, but there is only one **physical** boot device. All
the rest depends on software installed or run by Windows. You cannot
selectively choose a HDD to boot up from the BIOS at startup unlpess you do
it manually and restart the machine again. In my BIOS, for example, I can
specify a particular HDD or the CDROM as my boot device, but that one must
do all the further software booting steps from software (usually in the boot
sector).

Having said that, your software procedure does look like it would work well,
but it is a software procedure, not a true machine boot device: the
software says, instead of this BIOS device, start up another non-BIOS device
and run that to run the OS. From what you say, Dell must have a software
app in the boot sector that runs as part of the software bootup and operates
on the BIOS to change the hardware boot selection and then restart the
system. Neat trick but IMO a dangerous one).

What it sounds like anyway, but it would not work on my custom PC. The boot
procedure does not have any such function on my Intel BIOS system. It would
have to be software, such as the Acronis loader.