HD- Beat frequency on 2 drives ?

T

Timothy Daniels

Rod Speed said:
They are actually coupled by the drive bay stack metal.

Thats why damping mountings work and why having
one drive in the 3.5" drive bay stack and one in the
5.25" drive bay stack eliminates the problem.


I have two permanently-mounted Maxtor DiamondMax
Plus 9 drives in my PC's case, and there is no beat note
that is audible. There are no damping mounts, but Dell
(in its design wisdom) put the two hard drive mounts at
right angles to each other and the primary drive sits in a
plastic cage and the secondary drive is supported by metal
brackets. As a result, the two HDs couple very differently
to the PC case's walls, and the vibrational modes of
the two mounts do not interact. This is much different
from the typical specialty PC tower product that stacks
HDs one atop the other in identical mounts. In such
towers, I agree that HD vibration dampers might be
advisable to isolate the drives from the case walls.
It would be nice if they were provided as built-in features
(or optional features) by the case manufacturer, wouldn't it?

*TimDaniels*
 
A

Arno Wagner

<hee hee> "Radio & Electronics". Wasn't that a magazine?
Or was that a correspondence course?

[...]

Hey Tim, ignore this guy. As usual he has no clue about what is going
on. No surprise he has never heard about Fourier series or Fourier
analysis/synthesis, as he is obviously missing the undergrad-equivalent
education in Physics, Calculus, RF-engineering or the like.

Arno
 
R

Rod Speed

Timothy Daniels said:
Rod Speed wrote
I have two permanently-mounted Maxtor DiamondMax Plus 9 drives in my PC's
case, and there is no beat note that is audible.

Irrelevant to your claim that 'the rotation
of the platters is coupled to the air'
There are no damping mounts, but Dell (in its design wisdom) put the two hard
drive mounts at right angles to each other and the primary drive sits in a
plastic cage and the secondary drive is supported by metal brackets.

Thats done to jam more drives into their stupid cases.
As a result, the two HDs couple very differently to the PC case's walls,

The case walls arent relevant to beats.
and the vibrational modes of the two mounts do not interact. This is much
different from the typical specialty PC tower product that stacks HDs one atop
the other in identical mounts. In such towers, I agree that HD vibration
dampers might be advisable to isolate the drives from the case walls.

See above on case walls.
It would be nice if they were provided as built-in features
(or optional features) by the case manufacturer, wouldn't it?

It isnt normally necesssary. Its normally only a problem when
the drive bay stack isnt solidly mounted to the case frame.
 
E

Eric Gisin

It's pretty clear what I meant. Modulation is a topic of radio-electronics.
Hey Tim, ignore this guy. As usual he has no clue about what is going
on. No surprise he has never heard about Fourier series or Fourier
analysis/synthesis, as he is obviously missing the undergrad-equivalent
education in Physics, Calculus, RF-engineering or the like.
I know the topic far better than both of you put together.

So Timmy, you said:
The 1st statement makes no sense. You are regurgitating stuff you don't understand.

Then Timmy said:
Even more idiotic. Any electronics book will tell you modulation is NOT summing.

So Timmy and Arnie, does the linear sum of 100 and 300 Hz produce 200 Hz?
Can you hear it? Are you on crack/meth when you do?

The beat phenomena of 120 and 121 Hz from two drives does not produce 1 Hz.
The course notes you cited agree. There is a 1 Hz pattern, not a component.

The claim that modulation is related to beats is idiotic nonsense.
 
F

Folkert Rienstra

Arno Wagner said:
<hee hee> "Radio & Electronics". Wasn't that a magazine?
Or was that a correspondence course?

[...]

Hey Tim, ignore this guy. As usual he has no clue about what is going
on. No surprise he has never heard about Fourier series or Fourier
analysis/synthesis, as he is obviously missing the undergrad-equivalent
education in Physics, Calculus, RF-engineering or the like.

Arno

Oh look, babblemouth 1 and babblemouth 2 are bonding.
 
E

Eric Gisin

Wrong, Arnie. You don't have a ****ing clue.
The sum and idfference terms arise from _mixing_, which requires some non-
linearity. Just adding the two sinewaves gives you two sinewaves.
Correct. Linear systems do NOT produce combination tones.
I think what usually causes this low frequency vibration is a little different.
Each of the drives is slightly out of balance, and running at slightly different
rotational speed. At some point the out of balance condition on both drives is
adding to make a larger amplitude vibration, and later it tends to cancel making
the net vibration less. Your suggestions for ways to reduce the problem should do
the trick for the OP.

Any book on physics/psychology of hearing explains the difference between
linear and non-linear superposition. Here is a good one:
http://ccrma.stanford.edu/courses/150-2001/combination_tones.html

Linear Superposition
a.. The response of a linear system to multiple inputs is just the sum of the individual
responses.
b.. N different frequency inputs will produce a response given by the same N frequencies (with
the possibility of total cancellation of same-frequency components).
c.. Two simple harmonic waveforms of the same frequency will add to produce a single harmonic
waveform of the same frequency. The resulting amplitude and phase will depend on the individual
amplitudes and phases of the two waveforms.

Beats
a.. When two pure tones of slightly different frequency are superposed, our ears perceive audible
beats at a rate given by the difference of the two frequencies.
b.. Beats are heard as a pulsation in the loudness of a tone at the ``average'' frequency .
c.. When the difference frequency exceeds about 15 Hz, the beat sensation disappears and a
characteristic roughness of sound appears.
d.. As the difference frequency is increased further, a point is reached at which the ``fused''
tone at the average frequency gives way to two tones, though still with roughness. At this point,
the resonance regions on the basilar membrane are sufficiently separated to produce two distinct
pitch signals, but these regions still overlap to produce roughness.
e.. Finally, when the difference frequency exceeds the critical bandwidth, the roughness
disappears completely.

Combination Tones
a.. When two tones are sounded together, a tone of lower frequency is frequently heard. Such a
tone is called a Tartini tone or combination tone.
b.. The most commonly heard combination tone occurs at a frequency (or ).
c.. Other combination tones can occur at frequencies given by , , ..., , though these are much
less common.
d.. Combination tones expose nonlinearities in our auditory system.

Other Nonlinear Effects
a.. A single, loud tone of frequency should produce additional pitch sensations at , etc. These
are called aural harmonics.
b.. A nonlinear mechanism in the ear should result in summation, as well as difference, tones.
Perception of such higher frequency tones, however, has yet to be adequately demonstrated.

Here is another book:
http://www.lifesci.sussex.ac.uk/home/Chris_Darwin/Perception/Lecture_Notes/Hearing_Index.html

Essential quote from Intro: "A linear system can only output frequencies that are
present on the input, non-linear systems always add extra frequency components"
 
P

Peter

Timothy Daniels said:
Yup. And 400Hz, too.

*TimDaniels*

Someone said:
------------------------------
Heterodyning is a two-stage process. The two signals are added together
linearly, e.g. if the frequencies are f1 and f2, the waveforms are
sin(2*pi*f1*t) and sin(2*pi*f2*t) where t is time. No need to call up
Fourier, the formula to use is

sin A + sin B = 2*sin((A+B)/2)*cos((A-B)/2)

which gives a waveform which is the -product- of the sum and difference
frequencies. This can be viewed as a carrier (f1+f2) amplitude
modulated by the difference (f1-f2). If it is subsequently processed
by something which is effectively a low-pass filter (e.g. an ear), only
the difference frequency will be detected.

A diode rectifier chops off the negative-going halves of the waveform,
and subsequent amplification smooths the resulting peaks into a low-
frequency signal. In a superheterodyne set, subsequent stages are tuned
to the beat frequency- giving a similar effect.

So the beat frequency isn't a separate waveform created by the original
two frequencies (hence can't react with them ad infinitem to produce
white noise) but is an amplitude modulation of their sum.
--------------------------

and I agree. There are no waveforms with 200 and 400 Hz there.
So there is no waveform with beat frequency.
But we perceive beat as disapearing and reapearing sound when
both sources have similar frequencies and amplitudes.
 
J

J. Clarke

Arno said:
<hee hee> "Radio & Electronics". Wasn't that a magazine?
Or was that a correspondence course?

[...]

Hey Tim, ignore this guy. As usual he has no clue about what is going
on. No surprise he has never heard about Fourier series or Fourier
analysis/synthesis, as he is obviously missing the undergrad-equivalent
education in Physics, Calculus, RF-engineering or the like.

I was made aware of the existence of Fourier analysis in high school.
Didn't learn how to _do_ it but at least learned the notion of arbitrary
waveforms being constructed by superposition of sine waves. It amazes me
how many people pontificate about physics who don't even know it at the
high school level.
 
T

Timothy Daniels

Eric Gisin said:
Any book on physics/psychology of hearing explains the difference..

You still don't get the fundamental feature of Fourier analysis -
that periodic waveforms are the SAME as their Fourier components.
That means "indistinguishable" physically - not just physiologically.
The math determines the "psychology" of it, not the other way around.
Beat notes are not just "heard" subjectively - they exist in reality and
in electronic circuitry. A circuit tuned to the frequency of the beat
note will detect a waveform of that frequency.

*TimDaniels*
 
F

Folkert Rienstra

J. Clarke said:
Arno said:
Previously Timothy Daniels said:
:
:
"Eric Gisin" (a.k.a. Rod Speed) wrote:
:
:
The sum and idfference terms arise from _mixing_, which requires
some non-linearity. Just adding the two sinewaves gives you two
sinewaves.

Correct.

The sum of two sine waves gives the sum and the difference of
the two sine waves. The difference is commonly known as the "beat
frequency". If the two frequencies are similar, the sum is usually
limited in amplitude by
characteristics of the medium, but not by the math. In AM radio,
the sum of a RF carrier wave and an audio wave (widely different in
frequency and assumed for simplicity to be sine waves) gives sine
waves having the sum and the difference of the two frequencies -
known as sidebands.
No non-linearity is required. See:
http://hep.physics.indiana.edu/~rickv/Beats.html
This all falls out of Fourier analysis, basic college sophomore
physics/math.

You don't have a ****ing clue. Adding two sine waves produces no others.

Amplitude modulation is NOT adding two signals.
It is multiplication of the carrier by a biased signal.

<hee hee> You're cute when you're offensive.
When you have time, read the web page.

You are a ****ing moron, Timmy. Neither of you have a clue.

You cited a bird course in the physics of sound and music.
Come back when you have read some radio electronics.
<hee hee> "Radio & Electronics". Wasn't that a magazine?
Or was that a correspondence course?

[...]

Hey Tim, ignore this guy. As usual he has no clue about what is going
on. No surprise he has never heard about Fourier series or Fourier
analysis/synthesis, as he is obviously missing the undergrad-equivalent
education in Physics, Calculus, RF-engineering or the like.

I was made aware of the existence of Fourier analysis in high school.
Didn't learn how to _do_ it but at least learned the notion of arbitrary
waveforms being constructed by superposition of sine waves.
It amazes me how many people pontificate about physics who don't even
know it at the high school level.

At which level our resident babblemouths Arnie and Timmy apparently
*don't* know it. If they do, they hide it well.
 

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