Graphics card

[The Dude]

I'm looking to buy a graphics card mostly for gaming - it needs D-sub and
preferably s-video and hdtv out. Not willing to pay big money for one and
have read contrasting reviews. I've just got Far Cry 2 and wouldn't mind
playing that at decent resolution because at the moment the built-in vga is
a joke. The minimum requirements on the game's box doesn't make any sense.
Also ideally I don't want a cooling fan on it - do better quality cards need
fans? Does the PC's CPU have a big effect on performance or does the GPU
handle most the load - so if you get a good card then the CPU doesn't have
to high spec? Cheers if anyone can help

 

[Conor]

I'm looking to buy a graphics card mostly for gaming - it needs D-sub
and preferably s-video and hdtv out. Not willing to pay big money for
one and have read contrasting reviews. I've just got Far Cry 2 and
wouldn't mind playing that at decent resolution because at the moment
the built-in vga is a joke. The minimum requirements on the game's box
doesn't make any sense. Also ideally I don't want a cooling fan on it -
do better quality cards need fans? Does the PC's CPU have a big effect
on performance or does the GPU handle most the load - so if you get a
good card then the CPU doesn't have to high spec? Cheers if anyone can help

The faster the card, the hotter it gets so they need a fan.
CPU has an effect as well.

Sadly, you're not going to get everything you want unless you shell out.

 

[Paul]

I'm looking to buy a graphics card mostly for gaming - it needs D-sub
and preferably s-video and hdtv out. Not willing to pay big money for
one and have read contrasting reviews. I've just got Far Cry 2 and
wouldn't mind playing that at decent resolution because at the moment
the built-in vga is a joke. The minimum requirements on the game's box
doesn't make any sense. Also ideally I don't want a cooling fan on it -
do better quality cards need fans? Does the PC's CPU have a big effect
on performance or does the GPU handle most the load - so if you get a
good card then the CPU doesn't have to high spec? Cheers if anyone can help

Just for chuckles, I tried the Newegg.com video card page, selected
Advanced search, set interface to PCI Express x16 revision 2, set
cooling to fanless, and had a look at what is available. Then I
scrolled down to the most expensive one, to get some idea of
how much graphics power you can get, without a fan.

I see an HD 4850 near the bottom for $199 (with $20 rebate available). The
ones more expensive than that, are water cooled. Which rapidly drives up
the cost and complexity of installation.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...48 1069633099 1295318921&bop=And&Pagesize=100

Can you run a thing like this without a fan ? My advice would be
to get an 80mm fan, something with a relatively low CFMs, to blow onto
the cooling assembly. That will allow you, the user, to trade off the
operating temperature of the card, versus the noise level. I operate
a couple passive cooled AGP video cards that way, for better stability.
I bolt a stick to a couple PCI slot screws, then clamp the fan
to the stick with nylon ties. I've used an aluminum L shaped piece
for a "quality" install, and on the second, I used a wooden paint
stir stick

GIGABYTE GV-R485MC-1GH Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit
http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-125-237-S03?$S640W$

There aren't any complaints about stability here. One guy reports it
goes to 115C if the side is off the computer (temp drops once the
side is put back on the computer). This is one reason I don't take
chances, and use a fan mounted in the slot next to the card. (And my
cards are wimpy by comparison to the gaming power of that card.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16814125237

The power consumption of a HD 4850 is listed here. 110-115 watts.
The comments about power level on the Newegg page, are baseless.
The Xbitlabs folks, make power measurements where the power enters
the video card (including slot power). They use a specially modified
motherboard for the measurements. You need enough +12V current, to
supply that kind of power level (about 10 amps). Some of the current
will be flowing through the PCI Express auxiliary power connector
located on the end of the card (I see a single PCI Express 2x3 on
the end of the card).

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/sapphire-toxic-hd4850_5.html#sect0

That card has a mini-DIN connector, for some kind of video output.
It has a couple DVI-I connectors. The DVI-I, when used with a DVI-I
to VGA dongle, will give you a VGA interface when needed. Or plug
in a DVI cable for usage with a DVI monitor. So three monitor types
can be supported. The card is also "dual head", meaning two monitor
devices can be driven at a time. Select any two of three outputs.
Expect some limitations/kinks when it comes to movie playback, as
they're constantly fiddling with the drivers, and what the movie
industry will allow for playback (heard something the other day,
about an Nvidia driver not allowing mirroring, whatever that means
- I don't play movies).

It is hard to make out the dongles here, but I think one is a
DVI-I to VGA dongle. The other might be a DVI-I to HDMI dongle.
So if you needed two VGA, you might need to purchase a second
dongle separately later. The "yellow bullet" is for mini-DIN
to composite output. No sign of a component cable that I can
see, in the accessories.

http://images17.newegg.com/is/image/newegg/14-125-237-S06?$S640W$

There is an example of a component cable in this picture. This
is for another card. The red-green-blue cable assembly, connects
to the mini-DIN. There are different mini-DIN standards, so generally
it is the least hassle, when the component cable comes with the
card. (The SPDIF interface, is for routing digital audio, through the
video card, over DVI and then through the DVI to HDMI dongle.)

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/14-143-133-07.jpg

Paul

 

[The Dude]

It's not supposed to, nobody wants a new game that is played
at the minimum requirements or it'll look like an old game
without the modern eyecandy.

Here's what it says on the game's box:

Min Req:

nVidia 6800 or ATI X1650 or better, shader model 3 required 256MB of graphic
memory (nVidia 8600 GTS or better, ATI X1900 or better recommended)

--
If this is the minimum requirements, then it looks like I can get a fanless
one with probably better spec??

ATI RADEON X1650 (About £30 / $60)

Features

* Dual-link DVI
* Twelve pixel shader processors
* Five vertex shader processors
* 128-bit 4-channel /DDR2 memory interface
* Native PCI Express x16 bus interface
* Dynamic Voltage Control
* ATI RADEONT X1650 Core [500MHz]
* 12 Shader Units
* VGA/DVI/TV-out
* Max 3D resolution 2560x1600 (dual-link DVI)
* DirectX® 9 and ShaderModel 3.0 support
* ATI AvivoTM Support
* Support for Microsoft® Windows VistaT
* 512MB RAM

nVidia 6800 doesn't have D-sub/vga out??

 

[The Dude]

Cheers for the info. What is the main thing that determines a graphics
card's performance? (apart from price!)

 

[The Dude]

The motherboard chipset is NVIDIA MCP73VE (i think) - does this imply that I
need to get a nVidia card? Or will Ati cards work?

 

[Paul]

Cheers for the info. What is the main thing that determines a graphics
card's performance? (apart from price!)

Gobs of memory bandwidth, tons of parallel resources inside the chip.
A video card, is a massive parallel processing device.

To review the vital statistics for a card, you can look at the charts
on Tomshardware, to get some idea of how effective the card is. Or
go to a site like this, to see all the numbers.

http://www.gpureview.com/

Some games are CPU limited, some are GPU limited. And some are
hard on all resources.

The cheapest, performant card of late, was the 9600GSO. The manufacturers
seemed to have a glut of chips, and needed to get rid of them. (The chip
is relatively old, and the design is a rebrand.) In the US, the card was
available for a final cost to the consumer of about $55. I think the glut
of chips has been cleaned out, because I don't see the most desirable
models of those any more. There are still some left, but
you have to check the parameters very carefully, to avoid getting
one of the poorer ones. There were cards with 192 bit wide memory,
384GB total. Or 192 bit wide memory, 768MB total. As well as some
128 bit wide ones, with 512MB total. The latter would be the one to
avoid, as the memory bandwidth would be lower. Also, some of the
cards were listed with fewer internal parallel resources enabled,
but I can no longer even find web pages noting that fact.

But no matter how cheap a card is, there is no point buying a card
which is not suited for the application. If you know a game really
needs more resources to play well, then would you be happy with
a "slide show" ? I've seen the odd person, who insists on replacing
one cheap card, with another cheap card. And in the end, spending more
money than needed to get where they're going. It wasn't long ago,
there was a mismatch in the graphics card industry, between the
games and the cards. Virtually, only the high end cards were worth
buying, as the others just stunk. So check the benchmarks carefully,
before concluding you've pulled a fast one on the graphics card
makers.

Paul

 

[Paul]

The motherboard chipset is NVIDIA MCP73VE (i think) - does this imply
that I need to get a nVidia card? Or will Ati cards work?

When using a single video card in a computer, they're interchangeable at
the connector level. If the slot is PCI Express, then *any* brand of
PCI Express should work.

The issue with SLI or Crossfire (dual card configs), is the drivers
restrict where those modes will work. The hardware is still compatible
at the connector level. But depending on what brand of chipset is
involved, the drivers may refuse to go into SLI or Crossfire mode,
if the wrong brand of chipset is detected.

And if the computer is a pre-built, rather than something you
assembled yourself, check the power supply. If it is a low
end supply, it may be a little low on power for a big add-in
card. (The picture below has only a 250W. Shocking.) Some
of the add-in cards are long (10"), and bump into the lower
hard drive cage. Or cover up SATA connectors and the like.
A clue the power supply is not up to the job, is when the
power supply lacks any 2x3 PCI Express auxiliary power connectors.
For video cards over about 48W, they put extra connectors on the
end of the card (2x3 or 2x4), and that is how you know they're
going to need more power. Fortunately in this example, it may
be possible to fit a higher capacity supply, to fix the problem.
As long as the supply is a standard ATX pinout and form factor,
two of the three dimensions are fixed. The length dimension varies,
with some of the original high capacity supplies being significantly
longer than the supply they replace. In this picture, there is some
room for a longer supply.

http://images.tigerdirect.com/itemdetails/S445-M1640/S445-M1640-call05-ozpr.jpg

Paul

 

[The Dude]

That newegg.com site's prices are much less than we pay over here in the UK

 

[Paul]

NewEgg is USA only - ignore recommendations of that site for UK stuff. Look
at dabs.com, CCL, even ebay shops for new items.

I use the site for information and spotting trends. Recently, they finally opened
a web site in Canada, but due to brokerage charges, I wouldn't try to use them.

But compared to some other sites, they make it easy to get specs,
pictures, and prices, all in one spot. And the reviews by the
customers help fill in the details.

Once you've identified what you want to buy, you can get it
closer to home.

No etailer in my country, gives you more than product name
and price for items. You cannot tell what you're getting,
in terms of technical details. No pictures either. That
is what Newegg is for. And for reviews, if Newegg
doesn't have it, sometimes Amazon is another source
of information.

Paul

 

[The Dude]

look at the state of this one:
http://www.play.com/PC/PCs/-/668/87...6-Graphics-Card/Product.html?searchtype=genre

over a grand for a graphics card!

 

[The Dude]

OK, I've had a look and still not sure. Basically I want fanless card that
plays modern games (at 1600x1200 - 30fps+) with good quality settings.
Anyone got any ideas?

 

[GT]

look at the state of this one:
http://www.play.com/PC/PCs/-/668/87...6-Graphics-Card/Product.html?searchtype=genre

over a grand for a graphics card!

You want a Ferarri and you have just found a Scania!!

Thats a specialist Quadra card! Its aimed at multi-screen setups. Wouldn't
be particularly fast at games!

 

[GT]

look at the state of this one:
http://www.play.com/PC/PCs/-/668/87...6-Graphics-Card/Product.html?searchtype=genre

over a grand for a graphics card!

But play.com is a good UK site. Also www.scan.co.uk

 

[GT]

OK, I've had a look and still not sure. Basically I want fanless card that
plays modern games (at 1600x1200 - 30fps+) with good quality settings.
Anyone got any ideas?

Modern games at 1600x1200 on a fanless setup? You are not going to get
that - you need to either lower your expectations, wait a year (or so), or
situate the PC in another room, or look at a water cooling setup
(Expensive).