Getting past the weaselwording

[johns]

Radeon vs FireGL ... I have a CAD app that specs one of the Fire cards
as "certified". It only costs about 2 Cadillacs and a dancing lady. I
looked at the card specs, and it has a 300mhz DAC and 128 meg ram. I'm
not even sure it is DDR, and certainly not DDR 400. The Radeon 9800 Pro
has 256 meg DDR400 and a 600mhz DAC. I called ATI tech support, and the
guy gave me a lot of doubletalk about the "engine", so I asked him what
does that mean practically. He said, "Faster 3D". I didn't exactly call
him what I wanted to call him, but I asked what the real difference
between the 9800 and the Fire card was for my application. He said, "a
certified driver for that application". OK. So I'm suppose to pay up
around $800 for a "certified driver" to run on a "workstation" video
card whose specs are about one forth the quality of the 9800 at 4 times
the price. I must be stupid.

johns

 

[First of One]

Indeed, you ARE paying for the drivers. Driver certification for
professional 3D apps is actually a very expensive process, and the
optimizations will cause the lower-spec'd FireGL card to outperform your
9800Pro in CAD apps that are geometry-intensive.

Your CAD app also officially costs 2 Caddies *per year* in licensing fees.
Did you get it as warez?

And no, the Radeon 9800Pro certainly doesn't have "DDR400". You are
confusing video memory with common system RAM specs.

 

[johns]

Your CAD app also officially costs 2 Caddies *per year* in licensing fees.

Did you get it as warez?

Heck no. This is for a University course. Costs a fortune, but not
as much as if we were a professional engineering company.
And you are right .. about 2 Caddies per year.

And no, the Radeon 9800Pro certainly doesn't have "DDR400". You are
confusing video memory with common system RAM specs.

I think there must be typos or mis-statements all over the place,
because I've read that it does on many sales sites .. maybe a
different kind of ddr ?? Anyway, I have that app running on
Gigabyte mobos with Integrated 8meg Intel video, and it
runs fine, except it bogs down if too many windows are
open. Systems are P4s with 512 meg ram. That tells me
right there, that most of these card specs are total bullshit.
The app is Solidworks. If you go look at the ATI cards
that totally pass ALL their tests, you will find that one of
them is the ATI Radeon 9000 Pro 128 meg. And then
they turn around and say the 9800 Pro can only support
5 to 12 windows open, so it is less "certified" than the
9000 ????? Are they kidding ? Hacker sites say the hardware
for both the FireGL and the 9800 are identical. Only the
on-card BIOS is different. I wonder in what way ? I
strongly suspect that the "way" is how it handles OpenGL
.... since Solidworks is based on OpenGL .. and that is
probably why the 9000 tested well. Frankly, I just don't
believe either Solidworks or ATI. I'm betting the 9800
will kick the crap out of an equivalent FireGL, and the
price difference is sure worth a look.

johns

 

[Glitch]

And no, the Radeon 9800Pro certainly doesn't have "DDR400". You are
Radeon 9800PRO(256 MB)uses DDR2 memory that runs on 340(680)mHz.Funny
enough,R9800XT doesn't use DDR2 'cause it's more expensive,generates
more heat and isn't that faster.

 

[GTX_SlotCar]

Johns, I am architect and have been using Chief Architect for years. It's
OpenGL based just like Solidworks and most other CADD programs. I use an ATI
card because it was the first dual head card (except for matrox) out and I
wanted to get away from running 2 video cards for 2 monitors (you lose
hardware acceleration in OpenGL with 2 cards).
I have 4 video cards right now. 2 ATI's (radeon 8500 and 9800Pro) and 2
nVidia's (Ti4400 and 6800GT). I love my ATI cards, but let's face it, ATI
needs to do some serious work on their OpenGL drivers. (with the release of
Doom3, ATI has admitted their OpenGL drivers need work and have begun to
rewrite them.)
Chief Architect and it's distributors recommend using nVidia cards. On the
Chief Architect forums, the fastest speeds, by far, are recorded with nVidia
cards. CADD programs make heavy use of Vector graphics instead of the
Bitmapped graphics used in games, so CADD video cards are different than
regular cards. In these modern times, however, I don't know how much
difference it will make. From the benchmarks I've seen, the last generation
of CADD cards is no faster than the current generation of regular cards.
My advise, for what it's worth, would be to get the fastest nVidia card you
can afford. If you're in the $200 price range, get a 5900 series card. If
you're in the $400 range, get a 6800GT. If you've got $800 to $1000 to
spend, get a CADD card, but I probably wouldn't expect double the
performance out of it.
You could check around and see if Solidworks has a forum. Ask questions
there. If they don't have one, look up the Chief Architect forum.

Gary

 

[johns]

Radeon 9800PRO(256 MB)uses DDR2 memory that runs on 340(680)mHz.Funny

enough,R9800XT doesn't use DDR2 'cause it's more expensive,generates
more heat and isn't that faster.

I've got the Pro coming in. Sale on it at Mwave for $200. I just read on
a web site that the big deal in Solidworks is REALVIEW for real time 3D
rendering. Big deal. Apparently the FireGL driver can use it, and the
Radeon drivers of the past had problems with it ... FIXED IN Catalyst
4.6 ( and ATI talks about its use in (guess what), Solidworks ). So, I
get to pay up to $3000 so I can run Realview ... or I can use Catalyst
4.6 to 4.8 and run it for $200. I'm going to get to the bottom of this
if it hairlips everybody at ATI. I'm not about to pay $3000 for a driver.
Go google one of the FireGL cards .. you'll find prices for the exact
same card running from $200 all the way to $6000. There's one born every
minute !!!!

johns

 

[Willie Winger]

Hacker sites say the hardware
for both the FireGL and the 9800 are identical. Only the
on-card BIOS is different.

If you know this then you should know there is a hacked bios you can
upload to the 9800pro to make it read as a FireGL which will allow you
to use the FireGL drivers. No?

 

[johns]

You could check around and see if Solidworks has a forum. Ask questions
there. If they don't have one, look up the Chief Architect forum.

Solidworks has forums alright .. a bunch of engineering companies
trying to keep Solidworks from crashing 6x a day and taking down
engineering designs and losing hours of work. As far as I can tell
it seems to center on failed autosaves, and is sort of minor regards
video cards. However, I have more than 60 student workstations
to keep up, and right now I'm doing fine with Matrox G450s
and Intel 8meg Integrated video. Solidworks does crash, but
I think the problem is that the program is a kluge of dozens
of small programs linked by scripts that feed data from one to
another, and a lot of polling is going on. Solidworks can get
lost if the student makes an error in the model, and that loses
time that no student can afford in this program. So I am going
to study the next generation of upgrading here. I'm looking at
AMD 64 bundles, and a good video card for 3D. So far, that
is the ATI 9800 Pro .. or the nVidia ?? I think the nVidia cards
are fine, but I don't have enough experience with them. I really
like the ATI cards .. once the driver problems are sorted out.
I have become an expert at that ... Catalyst 4.8 and I are
very good friends now. I have that driver making Far Cry
and Doom 3 really look good .. even on low-end Radeons.
Might seem silly to say that, but it sure was not easy to do,
and at the same time, I've learned enough to keep SW
up and running on $600 machines .. a very good trick.

johns

 

[johns]

If you know this then you should know there is a hacked bios you can
upload to the 9800pro to make it read as a FireGL which will allow you
to use the FireGL drivers. No?

Yes. And I have been prowling the sites looking for it. One company
has a detailed report on how they did it, but no BIOS for dload.
In truth, I actually want to see if there is any truth to all this poop
about the FireGL BIOS. I think the problem all along was ATI
OpenGL problems with their drivers before Cat 4.6. I am betting
that Cat 4.8 will make Solidworks run just fine. I'm about to find
out too. If that is all the problem ever was, then directx 9c and
Catalyst 4.8 will probably solve it completely, and no mod
needed. If REALVIEW is the cause of the problem, then it
is time to tell Solidworks that a whole bunch of Engineering
students are looking straight at this !!!!!

johns

 

[Willie Winger]

Yes. And I have been prowling the sites looking for it. One company
has a detailed report on how they did it, but no BIOS for dload.
In truth, I actually want to see if there is any truth to all this poop
about the FireGL BIOS. I think the problem all along was ATI
OpenGL problems with their drivers before Cat 4.6. I am betting
that Cat 4.8 will make Solidworks run just fine. I'm about to find
out too. If that is all the problem ever was, then directx 9c and
Catalyst 4.8 will probably solve it completely, and no mod
needed. If REALVIEW is the cause of the problem, then it
is time to tell Solidworks that a whole bunch of Engineering
students are looking straight at this !!!!!

johns

You can get the bios here.

http://www.techpowerup.com/bios/

 

[First of One]

Actually, one of the differences between a Radeon and FireGL is support for
so-called "multiple render targets". On a Radeon, if you have multiple 3D
windows open, the card cannot hardware-accelerate all of them. Newer cards
like the Radeon X800 can do this (I think). All FireGL and Quadro cards can
do this easily. This may actually be a hardware difference, so a hacked
driver or BIOS probably will not enable it on a Radeon.

If the integrated 8 MB video is bogging down only with too many windows
open, you might as well stick with it.

And the Radeon drivers indeed suck for MCAD. I'm using Pro/E Wildfire 2.0
and my Radeon 9800Pro is slower than the GF3 it replaced, even though by
sheer hardware specs the Radeon should slap it silly. FSAA also doesn't work
in a window, whereas the nVidia drivers handled it without a hitch.

 

[First of One]

http://www.nvworld.ru/docs/sfgl_e.html

Interesting article.