Further advice on assembling books

[Jane Gillett]

I've just returned to this group after a break and came across a thread
about whether to produce a book as a single file or separate chapters
(June). I'm working with someone producing a book of the size mentioned
and the same question has arisen but with the complication of
footnote/endnotes. I have a few queries and would welcome advice.

Word 97.

It will be necessary to use endnotes and footnotes.

If he opts for chapters in separate files (for safety and convenience of
handling):

1. If he uses automatic numbering:
1.1 Can these be cross-referenced across several files ie keep numbers
consistent across chapters (essential; will have to handle as a single
document if you cannot do this).
1.2 Can these numbers be someway specified - I know this cuts across the
concept of automatic numbering but it would be convenient to keep them
consistent with other related documents.

2. For either a single file or separate chapter files, if he uses
"customised symbols" (using numbers) as a means of specifying numbers:
2.1 Will these have to be set up individually (and printed) in each chapter
if separate chapters?
2.2 These appear at the end of the document/section in the order in which
they first appear in the text; is it possible to change the order of the
notes so that, with numbers used as symbols, the notes are printed in
numerical order?

3. Is it possible to collect them into a single list at the end of the last
chapter if the separate chapter files approach is used? This applies to
both auto and customised numbering.

All advice appreciated. Thankyou
Jane

 

[Shauna Kelly]

Hi Jane

Having each chapter in a separate file may be more convenient to handle. But
I'm not sure it's safer. With an important project like a book, I would
expect the author to have a rigorous backup process, so it's not necessarily
"safer".

For my money, with one author, I'd keep it all in one document unless and
until it becomes too unwieldy.

To answer your specific queries:

1. Cross-referencing across documents is possible, but awkward. See the
basic technique described for page numbering across files at
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister/MiscFram.htm

2. Sorry, I don't know what you mean here.

3. Are you referring to a table of contents for multiple documents? If so
see the easy version at the bottom of this page:
How to create a table of contents in Microsoft Word
http://www.ShaunaKelly.com/word/toc/CreateATOC.html
and the more thorough version here:
http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=148

Hope this helps.

Shauna Kelly. Microsoft MVP.
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word

 

[Jane Gillett]

Hi Jane

Having each chapter in a separate file may be more convenient to handle. But
I'm not sure it's safer. With an important project like a book, I would
expect the author to have a rigorous backup process, so it's not necessarily
"safer".

For my money, with one author, I'd keep it all in one document unless and
until it becomes too unwieldy.

To answer your specific queries:

1. Cross-referencing across documents is possible, but awkward. See the
basic technique described for page numbering across files at
http://homepage.swissonline.ch/cindymeister/MiscFram.htm

From your comments above, I reckon we'll keep it as a single document but
I'll look at the reference for interest anyway.

2. Sorry, I don't know what you mean here.

What I'm talking about is using symbols to identify endnotes. There is an
option in one of the dialogue boxes and you can specify the
symbol/character you want to use (presumably you can use almost any
characters - asterisks etc). In trying this out I chose numbers as my
symbols so that I could use numbers I had (in theory) used in previous
documents for those particular references. This worked fine except for the
list of references at the end of the document; they appeared in the order
in which they were used in the body of the document and I feel the reader
would find it easier to look up a particular endnote if they had been in
numerical order. I could not see any way of sorting them into the order I
wanted.

3. Are you referring to a table of contents for multiple documents? If so
see the easy version at the bottom of this page:
How to create a table of contents in Microsoft Word
http://www.ShaunaKelly.com/word/toc/CreateATOC.html
and the more thorough version here:
http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=148

No. It wasn't a TOC. If you were using 1 file for each chapter the endnotes
would appear at the end of the individual chapters they were used in. I was
a asking if there was a way to collect them all in one list which could
then be put (by the printer) at the end of the book. Thanks for the
references, however.

Hope this helps.

Many thanks. We'll go for a single documents - always make careful backups
anyway.

I'll look in the references you have given and see if I can find a way of
using predetermined numbers for the endnotes while being able to sort them
into a suitable order at the end of the document. If we could move them
individually it would be a solution of sorts although not a convenient one.

Using automatic numbering would obviously solve that particular problem but
my author already has a list of previously numbered references to be used
as footnotes so would like to be able to specify the number.

Thanks for your response. Much appreciated.

Jane G.

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Jane,

I'll look in the references you have given and see if I can find a way of
using predetermined numbers for the endnotes while being able to sort them
into a suitable order at the end of the document.

If you want the same number to be used for each reference, and the
references listed in alphabetical order, which is very common--see here:
7. Endnotes in Alphabetical Order
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/footnotefaq.htm

Even if that isn't exactly what you were envisioning, I think the link gives
you a good method to achieve "predetermined numbers for the endnotes while
being able to sort them into a suitable order at the end of the document."

A compilation of useful links for long documents:

So You Want to Write a Book in Word
http://daiya.mvps.org/bookword.htm

Using automatic numbering would obviously solve that particular problem but
my author already has a list of previously numbered references to be used
as footnotes so would like to be able to specify the number.

Sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen, to me, though I'm not entirely
clear on whether this method would subject you to manually updating note
numbers, which is certainly the worst-case scenario.

 

[Jane Gillett]

Hi Jane,

If you want the same number to be used for each reference, and the
references listed in alphabetical order, which is very common--see here:
7. Endnotes in Alphabetical Order
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/footnotefaq.htm

Even if that isn't exactly what you were envisioning, I think the link gives
you a good method to achieve "predetermined numbers for the endnotes while
being able to sort them into a suitable order at the end of the document."

A compilation of useful links for long documents:

So You Want to Write a Book in Word
http://daiya.mvps.org/bookword.htm

Many thanks. I'll read it.

Sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen, to me, though I'm not entirely
clear on whether this method would subject you to manually updating note
numbers, which is certainly the worst-case scenario.

I'll see what I get from the above. I'm sure it must be common in the
academic world where writers will have the same references in more than one
publication (and probably a tendency to use the same endnote numbers from
familiarity) but maybe the academic world either doesn't use automatic
endnotes or doesn't use Word. "My" author is ex-Wordperfect.

Thanks, both, for your information. We'll digest it and decide what to do.

Cheers
Jane

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Jane,

I'll see what I get from the above. I'm sure it must be common in the
academic world where writers will have the same references in more than one
publication (and probably a tendency to use the same endnote numbers from
familiarity) but maybe the academic world either doesn't use automatic
endnotes or doesn't use Word. "My" author is ex-Wordperfect.

I'm in the academic world, though every discipline has its own conventions.
However, I'm in one of the few disciplines that actually still uses
footnotes and endnotes. My experience is that when scholars want to use the
same reference number over and over, they use something like the
alphabetical endnotes method that I linked (which is not endnotes at all).
With footnotes and endnotes, I normally see people using new numbers, that
duplicate information from previous numbers. In fact, there are specific
rules about how you can format that duplicate information, so duplicate
information is certainly the standard.

I would say there is not much "using the same endnote numbers from
familiarity", as unless you have *exactly* the same reference list in more
than one document, those numbers change. The other thing that academics do
is use programs like EndNote to manage this for them.

You might check the appropriate style reference for the topic--MLA for
English/language topics, Chicago for history, APA for social sciences. See
what the end product is supposed to be, and then ask how best to make Word
do that efficiently.

 

[Daiya Mitchell]

Hi Jane,

A PS to my previous post:

My experience is that when scholars want to use the
same reference number over and over, they use something like the
alphabetical endnotes method that I linked (which is not endnotes at all).

An alternative would be a cross-reference to a previous endnote, in order to
use the same endnote number more than once. That method is also described
at this page:
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/formatting/footnotefaq.htm

But again, those numbers are document-specific. I've never heard of anybody
getting the reference numbers from some predefined master list used for more
than one publication.

 

[Jane Gillett]

Hi Jane,

On 10/24/06 2:15 AM, "Jane Gillett" wrote:

I'm in the academic world, though every discipline has its own conventions.
However, I'm in one of the few disciplines that actually still uses
footnotes and endnotes. My experience is that when scholars want to use the
same reference number over and over, they use something like the
alphabetical endnotes method that I linked (which is not endnotes at all).
With footnotes and endnotes, I normally see people using new numbers, that
duplicate information from previous numbers. In fact, there are specific
rules about how you can format that duplicate information, so duplicate
information is certainly the standard.

I would say there is not much "using the same endnote numbers from
familiarity", as unless you have *exactly* the same reference list in more
than one document, those numbers change. The other thing that academics do
is use programs like EndNote to manage this for them.

You might check the appropriate style reference for the topic--MLA for
English/language topics, Chicago for history, APA for social sciences. See
what the end product is supposed to be, and then ask how best to make Word
do that efficiently.

Thankyou.

What do --MLA, Chicago and APA refer to please?

Jane

 

[Suzanne S. Barnhill]

I'm curious about someone who's writing a book with references and
documentation and doesn't know what these stand for. They represent three
standard styles for scholarly documentation. MLA is the Modern Language
Association, APA is the American Psychological Association, and Chicago
represents the style used by the University of Chicago Press and presented
in the Chicago Manual of Style.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA

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[Daiya Mitchell]

I think she's just typing it for someone else. I get the picture of the
client as an antiquated type who created his own muddle of ways to do
things, and that he is now trying to push them onto Jane.

 

[Jane Gillett]

I'm curious about someone who's writing a book with references and
documentation and doesn't know what these stand for. They represent three
standard styles for scholarly documentation. MLA is the Modern Language
Association, APA is the American Psychological Association, and Chicago
represents the style used by the University of Chicago Press and presented
in the Chicago Manual of Style.

We are in the UK not US. The author I am helping is considering what style
to adopt but is leaning towards that which is used by the University
department/"tutor" he is associated with but wants to evaluate the options
available to him. The terms above are not familiar to me; I'll ask him
whether he knows about them - he has not mentioned them.

Thankyou
Jane

 

[Jane Gillett]

I think she's just typing it for someone else. I get the picture of the
client as an antiquated type who created his own muddle of ways to do
things, and that he is now trying to push them onto Jane.

Not quite.

I'm not the author but I'm not typing it either. He's doing that himself.
My role is to show him how to achieve the "word-processing effects" he
wants to use ie what is available to him and how to do it.

He's not antiquated but is not familiar with Word - rather got directed
onto it for compatibility when he had to update his system and Wordperfect
had dropped in popularity. Whether the items he is asking about are
"muddled" I wouldn't know. I am not an academic - just someone with years
of experience in varied areas of software development and its uses, a
little of which has concerned word processing over the years. As in many
things, when I need information I ask those who have specialised.

Thanks
Jane