Full or OEM?

[Pecos]

Apparently Microsoft's telephone support for re-activations doesn't
follow the EULA. Also, what's in the EULA won't necessarily stand up
in court. Courts tend to go by what a reasonable person would expect
(aka consumer rights).

Gary VanderMolen

Microsoft is doing users a 'favor' if they reactivate Vista, as they have
apparently been doing with XP, when you install an OEM version on a
different 'device' or if you change out the motherboard to a new make/model.

Anyone purchasing Vista should buy it as if the all of the EULA clauses were
going to be fully in force. Just because Microsoft is willing to grant a
new key to an OEM licensee doesn't mean that the licensee is now in full
compliance with the EULA.

However, Microsoft must be aware of something in law called 'squatters
rights' and if they continue to grant these 'favors', they run the risk of
challenges to the transferability clause in court.

No, I'm not a lawyer, I've just been pretending to be one trying to
understand these EULA issues.

--
Alan Norton
Reviews Including ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H
Motherboards
Guide to Choosing the Right Version Of Vista For You - Vista Confusion
Article
Arizona Pics
No Spam - Just a gratuitous plea for more hardware to test
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/

 

[Brian W]

Microsoft is doing users a 'favor' if they reactivate Vista, as they have
apparently been doing with XP, when you install an OEM version on a
different 'device' or if you change out the motherboard to a new
make/model.

Where in the EULA does it state that the motherboard cannot be changed? The
only reference I see is to the 'licenced device', which was 'supplied with
the software'. My OEM DVD did not come with any hardware.

 

[Alan Norton]

Where in the EULA does it state that the motherboard cannot be changed?
The only reference I see is to the 'licenced device', which was 'supplied
with the software'. My OEM DVD did not come with any hardware.

Brian, the information I used is here:
http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/1004364651/ShowPost.aspx

John backs up his information to links on the Microsoft website, but you
need a logon ID to see it.

The OEM software is for use by system builders only.

My research backs up his comments. For the full details, visit my site.
--
Alan Norton
Reviews Including ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H
Motherboards
Guide to Choosing the Right Version Of Vista For You - Vista Confusion
Article
Arizona Pics
No Spam - Just a gratuitous plea for more hardware to test
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/

 

[*rain*drops*]

Which begs the question -- what is the "licensed device?" The phrase "...
at one time..." indicates that a processor can be changed out and replaced,
as long as the software is used on only two maximum processors within the
"licensed device." So the processor is not the "licensed device."

What does that leave? The CPU case? Just never change the CPU case.

 

[Gary VanderMolen]

According to OEM builder guidance I saw, Microsoft considers the
motherboard to be the heart of the "licensed device." You are
allowed to change out the motherboard if it develops a defect,
but only with the exact same model, no upgrade allowed.
If that motherboard is no longer made, you are SOL.

All this is about as useful as discussing how many angels
can fit on the head of a pin. The plain fact is that MS has
instructed its activation reps to allow OEM reactivations as
long as that license isn't in use on more than one computer
at a time.

Gary VanderMolen

Which begs the question -- what is the "licensed device?" The phrase "...
at one time..." indicates that a processor can be changed out and replaced,
as long as the software is used on only two maximum processors within the
"licensed device." So the processor is not the "licensed device."

What does that leave? The CPU case? Just never change the CPU case.

 

[Brian W]

Brian, the information I used is here:
http://discuss.pcmag.com/forums/1004364651/ShowPost.aspx

John backs up his information to links on the Microsoft website, but you
need a logon ID to see it.

The OEM software is for use by system builders only.

Yes, but I say again, nowhere in my EULA does it state that changing the
motherboard constitutes a new computer, only the 'licenced device', which is
a 'partition or blade'. If I read that right, I can change the board and
still be in compliance with the EULA.

 

[Brian W]

According to OEM builder guidance I saw, Microsoft considers the
motherboard to be the heart of the "licensed device."

The EULA does not say anything about the motherboard.

 

[Alias]

According to OEM builder guidance I saw, Microsoft considers the
motherboard to be the heart of the "licensed device." You are allowed to
change out the motherboard if it develops a defect, but only with the
exact same model, no upgrade allowed.

That only applies to system builders, not end users who buy a generic
OEM and build their own computer.

Alias

 

[Alias]

Yes, but I say again, nowhere in my EULA does it state that changing the
motherboard constitutes a new computer, only the 'licenced device',
which is a 'partition or blade'. If I read that right, I can change the
board and still be in compliance with the EULA.

Alan is confusing system builders with end users. A lot of MVPs do that.
Pay them no mind.

Alias

 

[Brian W]

That only applies to system builders, not end users who buy a generic OEM
and build their own computer.

Which is exactly what I've done.

 

[Ken Blake, MVP]

Which begs the question -- what is the "licensed device?" The phrase
"... at one time..." indicates that a processor can be changed out
and replaced, as long as the software is used on only two maximum
processors within the "licensed device." So the processor is not the
"licensed device."
What does that leave? The CPU case? Just never change the CPU case.

The issue of OEM licenses and what constitutes the same computer is a can of
worms. The EULA doesn't specify what constitutes the same computer, and the
EULA is what you agree to. If I had my druthers, all licenses would be the
same, with the retail rules, and there wouldn't be such a thing as an OEM
license.

There are people here (and elsewhere) who claim that if you change the
motherboard, it's a different computer. Although that certainly sounds
logical, the OEM EULA does *not* say that. Some of these people will point
to a Microsoft site for System Builders (one that can't even be accessed by
the general public) that states that changing the motherboard makes it a
different computer. Again, the EULA, which is what you agree to, does *not*
state that, so as far as I'm concerned, what this site states is irrelevant.

My guess is that if it ever came before a court (which is highly unlikely)
and Microsoft ever pointed to that web site, they'd be laughed out of court.

The real issue in my mind is what happens if you change the motherboard and
have to reactivate an OEM version over the phone. If you talk to a Microsoft
representative and he defends the "motherboard defines the computer" point
of view and won't activate you, you're out of luck unless you want to take
Microsoft to court (which is probably highly unlikely).

My own view is that you might be able to successfully argue in court that,
silly as it may sound, the computer is defined by the case, since that's
where Microsoft requires that the product key sticker be affixed. You could
therefore change everything inside the case, and it would still be the same
computer.

However, don't rely on that last paragraph unless you're willing to go to
court over it. I wouldn't be.

 

[Pecos]

Alan is confusing system builders with end users. A lot of MVPs do that.
Pay them no mind.

Alias

Only system builders are supposed to buy the OEM version per the OEM EULA. If you build your own computer you should qualify as a 'system builder'. Being a system builder would make you required to followed Microsoft's requirements for system builders. Microsoft has opened up a whole can of worms by selling the OEM version retail. Ken outlines these issues very well - see his post. Like he said, these 'System Builder Requirements' are not even accessible to the general public, making it rather difficult for the small retail builder to follow them.

And no, I am neither a lawyer or a MVP. I didn't even know what that acronym meant until a couple of days ago. I know some of this information because I wanted to be a fully informed buyer before I bought Vista and found out that I couldn't do something with the half priced OEM version versus the full retail version. I have posted my research at my website to *hopefully* help others out there who are confused with a one-stop web page that would answer some of these issues and help them choose the right version of Vista.

If you will notice, my article is titled:
Vista Confusion
And Few Are Aware of the True Magnitude of the Confusion, Yet

So, while I have tried to clear up some of the confusion I discuss there, only Microsoft can really do that.

--
Alan Norton
Reviews Including ABIT AN8 SLI, ECS P965T-A & Foxconn 975X7AB-8EKRS2H Motherboards
Guide to Choosing the Right Version Of Vista For You - Vista Confusion Article
Arizona Pics
No Spam - Just a gratuitous plea for more hardware to test
http://www.mindspring.com/~anorton1/

 

[Alias]

Only system builders are supposed to buy the OEM version per the OEM
EULA.

Not where I live. *Anyone* can buy a generic OEM in Spain. In fact only
*one* store offers retail Ultimate at almost $US800 (220 OEM). The
retail Ultimate upgrade goes for $US522. Home Basic N goes for $US400
(98 OEM without the "N").

It doesn't take a genius to see why people here buy OEMs instead of Retail.

Alias

 

[Dale]

Someone posted a link here not too long ago to a site with an interview with
Susan somebody from Microsoft where she (Microsoft) specifically stated that
Microsoft allows home users to install OEM software on their own home-built
PCs. It is within the intent and scope of the agreement as long as the home
user understands that they are responsible for their own support.

I think most home users who build their own systems should consider the OEM.
Especially if you're building a new PC.

If you're planning on replacing your existing PC or motherboard in a year,
maybe you would get the upgrade version instead. If you're replacing your
PC or motherboard in 120 days or less, get an OEM, use it within the spirit
and letter of the license agreement for 120 days as a trial without
activation. Replace your motherboard and then another 120 days without
activation. If you're confident your motherboard is solid now, activate it.

By the way. Please don't post in HTML or Rich Text formats. It really
screws up the ability to mark the previous content when replying.


Dale

 

[Brian W]

If you're planning on replacing your existing PC or motherboard in a year,
maybe you would get the upgrade version instead. If you're replacing your
PC or motherboard in 120 days or less, get an OEM, use it within the
spirit and letter of the license agreement for 120 days as a trial without
activation. Replace your motherboard and then another 120 days without
activation. If you're confident your motherboard is solid now, activate
it.

Is it definitely 120 days?

 

[D. Spencer Hines]

Darn Good Points All....

There will be a Court Case, of some sort, over these EULA issues, some
day -- it's virtually inevitable.

And we shall all be watching closely. <g>

DSH

 

[Dale]

It is definitely 30 days at a time renewable 3 times for a total of 120
days. And Microsoft states that this behavior is intended and acceptable
within the terms of the license agreement.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,129148-c,vistalonghorn/article.html


Dale

 

[Gary VanderMolen]

There will be a Court Case, of some sort, over these EULA issues, some
day -- it's virtually inevitable.

Not if MS can help it. MS doesn't want to push the issue.
Their lawyers are mainly concerned with mass piracy.

From what I understand, European courts have forced MS
to soften the European version of the EULA to the point
where the consumer can resell/reuse the OEM license
indefinitely. Why should US consumers be second class
citizens?

Gary VanderMolen

 

[Alias]

Not if MS can help it. MS doesn't want to push the issue. Their lawyers
are mainly concerned with mass piracy.
From what I understand, European courts have forced MS to soften the
European version of the EULA to the point where the consumer can
resell/reuse the OEM license indefinitely.

About time.

Why should US consumers be
second class
citizens?

Gary VanderMolen

Because you have a president whose base/boss is Big Business?

Alias

 

[DevilsPGD]

In message <[email protected]> "Gary

From what I understand, European courts have forced MS
to soften the European version of the EULA to the point
where the consumer can resell/reuse the OEM license
indefinitely. Why should US consumers be second class
citizens?

Because they choose to be -- As long as customers accept these
limitations, they'll never disappear.