Freezing a HDD

Discussion in 'Storage Devices' started by Franc Zabkar, Oct 30, 2011.

  1. Franc Zabkar

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    There is a current thread at HDD Guru which is discussing whether
    freezing a HDD causes platter damage:

    Can anyone offer any insight, particularly in regard to the vague
    throwaway statement by "Doomer" in respect of "firmware and data
    density"? My BS alert went off, but I couldn't pin it down.

    - Franc Zabkar
    Franc Zabkar, Oct 30, 2011
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  2. Franc Zabkar

    Arno Guest

    Magnetization is not negatively affected by low temperatures.
    It is by high temperatures. Sounds like complete BS to me.

    As to why no (reliable) operation below 40C, there is a number
    of reasons:

    - Electronics will shift its parameters too far.
    - Lubricants will change their behaviour too far
    - Components may be damaged due to mechanical (thermal) stress
    - The cold air may change behaviour too far
    - The heating up process in operation may damage things

    Firmware and data-density is utter and complete BS though.

    Of course HDDs are suceptible to moisture and condensation.
    That is why you need to pack it airtight when putting it in.
    The thing here is that a HDD also has a maximu rate of temperature
    change and a freezer routinely exceeds that. This may overload
    the air-filter. But other than that, I don't see any way a
    conventional freezer (-18C) could do damage to the platters.

    Incidentally, If I understand this right, the freezing in
    this case was not to do immediate data recovery afterwards,
    but the drive was declared "fixed". This is of course BS.
    Freezing can give you a chance to get a drive up and running
    that refuses to start otherwise. It can give you a few minutes
    of reliable operarion for a drive that does not work
    reliably anymore. The thoery is that shifting operation
    parameters cause a shift to "works better" or "works worse"
    and most electronics works better when cold.

    Freezing cannot magically fix anything permanently. It
    temporary shifts operation parameters and sometimes
    this gives you a few minutes for immediate data recovery.
    Nothing more.

    Arno, Oct 30, 2011
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  3. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    No they dont. Freight doesnt freeze.
    It isnt the cold air that does that, its the cold surfaces
    that condense the moisture in that cold saturated air.
    But not when the drive is put in the freezer not running.
    Rod Speed, Oct 30, 2011
  4. Franc Zabkar

    Franc Zabkar Guest

    That's what I suspect. However, my understanding is that "Doomer" is a
    data recovery professional who is employed by Seagate in this
    capacity. Therefore I would think that he would have access to
    Seagate's internal technical documentation. He is also well respected
    by his peers.

    - Franc Zabkar
    Franc Zabkar, Oct 30, 2011
  5. Franc Zabkar

    Arno Guest

    But this is outside of what he does. For data recovery, he will not
    go below -40C or the like. The only possible connection with firmware
    is that modern HDDs regulate head-hight thermally and there will be
    some table in the firmware that adjusts this to ambient temperature, at
    least directly after start-up. It is quite possible this works only
    down to -40C. But that would not be cause, but effect. Because other
    things fail below -40C anyways, there is no need to have working
    head-hight regulation below -40C.

    As to data-density, I do not see any connection at all, except
    something even more artificially constructed.

    My guess would be that this person has not reacted to well too the
    respect he is getting and is getting arrogant and sloppy, at least
    in some statements outside his core competency.

    Arno, Oct 31, 2011
  6. Franc Zabkar

    8732 Guest

    Just like with you and Win, eh ?
    8732, Oct 31, 2011
  7. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    We'll see...
    Not with aircraft freight. If it did, the pets in pet containers would die.
    The pets carried as freight in aircraft arent in heated containers.
    And the contents of those trucks dont freeze.
    We'll see...
    Pigs arse they are. They all have an air vent and what they get shipped isnt sealed.
    The packaging isnt airtight.
    Taint in a SEALED bag in the sense that its airtight.
    You'll end up completely blind if you dont watch out, boy.
    Rod Speed, Nov 1, 2011
  8. Franc Zabkar

    Arno Guest

    Sealed, often with a moisture-eater inside. The small
    "silica gel" bags with the large "DO NOT EAT" are moisture
    eaters. Also not that the drives have a filter that
    keeps moisture out when the temperature and air pressure
    does not change too fast. Drive manuals lists maximum rates
    for both.

    Arno, Nov 1, 2011
  9. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    Since as long as we have had planes.
    No need.
    Most havent.
    How odd that retaillers manage to ship beer and water around so effortlessly.
    Not often enough to matter obviously.
    Yep, I buy quite a few drives and not one has
    ever showed up in a sealed container, EVER.
    None of mine have been for more than a decade now.
    Your sig is sposed to be last with a line with just -- on it in front of it, child.
    Got one just last week thanks.
    Because it doesnt need to be airtight.
    Then you need to get your seems machinery seen to, BAD.
    Thats because they are designed so that they dont need to be airtight.

    Thats why the drive has a vent that usually has a label on it telling you to not cover that.
    Because it doesnt need to be airtight.
    Yep, watch plenty of you silly little children end up completely blind.

    You've been warned, boy.
    Rod Speed, Nov 1, 2011
  10. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    Mindlessly silly. It would be a lot cheaper to fill it with dry nitrogen, child.

    They even do that with car tires now.
    And much more expensive than dry nitrogen, child.
    Rod Speed, Nov 1, 2011
  11. Franc Zabkar

    GMAN Guest

    I believe this. At 40,000 feet its quite easy for a package to freeze on the
    airplane and still be frozen at delivery time from the UPS truck.
    GMAN, Nov 1, 2011
  12. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    GMAN wrote
    More fool you.
    Have fun explaining why the pets dont end up as little frozen corpses,
    or why you dont end up with frozen suitcases when you fly anywhere.
    Rod Speed, Nov 1, 2011
  13. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    This is from the clown that hasnt even noticed that you dont EVER end
    up with frozen suitcases when getting your bags after a plane flight.
    Have fun explaining why it doesnt with care tires which are indeed filled with that.
    Mindlessly silly. Even if the nitrogen did migrate thru
    the bag, and it doesnt any more than air which is mostly
    nitrogen does, the bag would just collapse, child.
    Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have
    never ever had a ****ing clue about even the most basic physics.

    Not only wont the nitrogen migrate any more than it
    does with air which is mostly nitrogen, there wont be
    any vacuum, because the bag will just deflate at most.
    Everyone understands basic physics much better than you do, child.
    Pity that the air otherwise used is mostly nitrogen, child.
    Rod Speed, Nov 2, 2011
  14. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    True of all freight, child. Thats why you dont end
    up with frozen bags when you get off a plane flight.

    And even dedicated freight aircraft are the same aircraft used for
    carrying passengers, with the freight where the passengers usually
    are, so that freight is STILL carried where its pressurised and where
    it doesnt freeze any more than the passengers ever end up frozen.
    Which is why ALL freight is carried in pressurised areas, child.
    Nope, yours.
    But never FROZEN bags, child.
    Rod Speed, Nov 2, 2011
  15. Franc Zabkar

    GMAN Guest

    Same here. When arriving back from a trip we took to Orlando to visit
    Disneyworld, when we got our packages in Salt Lake City and went home, my
    wifes handlotion was extremely cold and so was my cologne. The only way
    possible that this happened in the middle of July was the approx 40,000
    elevation and no pressurized baggage area.
    GMAN, Nov 2, 2011
  16. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    GMAN wrote
    But they werent FROZEN SOLID.
    If where they were wasnt pressurized, any liquid
    would have erupted all over the contents of the bags.

    NOTHING is carried non pressurized areas, even with dedicated
    cargo aircraft which has the freight where the passengers would
    normally be. They are just conventional aircraft without seats, there
    is no way to have the cockpit pressurised and not the main cabin.

    You two dont have a ****ing clue about how that sort of aicraft operates.
    Rod Speed, Nov 2, 2011
  17. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    They dont.
    Nothing to answer because they dont. If they did, we'd see hordes
    with broken containers during the customs inspection done with all
    international flights checking for drug imports and we dont.

    We'd also not see every international airport flogging duty free liquor
    to travellers, and we do anyway.

    We'd also see all animals arrive dead, and we dont.

    You havent got a ****ing clue about the basics.
    Are you seriously trying to claim that air isnt mostly nitrogen, child ?
    Pity about
    Waffle as far as
    is concerned.

    And you clearly werent one of them.
    More meaningless waffle.
    You clearly dont with the composition of air
    Easy to claim, child.
    Easy to claim, child.
    You clearly dont on the the composition of air, child
    You cant even understand the basics like
    Irrelevant to
    Irrelevant to
    You clearly dont on what air is about
    Must be why you got the bums rush, right out the door onto your lard arse, child.
    Read it and weep, child.

    A Jap would at least have the decency to disembowel itself, child.
    Dont make a mess of the carpet...
    Rod Speed, Nov 3, 2011
  18. Franc Zabkar

    Arno Guest

    There is also the fact that water needs a lot of energy
    removed in order to freeze. If there is a layer of
    insulation around it, not even a transcontinental
    flight might be enough to remove that. Also note that
    airplane holds are actually heated. This may lead to
    different temperatures, depending on location, (explains
    the cold luggage), but it is not the -55C outside.



    I am having trouble verifying your "innert atmosphere
    (i.e. nitrogen) diffuses out of sealed plasic bag" claim.

    Is this a very slow process? Does it depend on the bag
    material? N is actually N2 in air and O is O2, and it seems
    to me they are actually pretty close in size and outer
    electron configuration (may have that wrong my chemistry
    is weak), so something letting N2 trough should typically
    also let O2 through?

    I also understand that diffusion is sort of a mixing process,
    where the mixtures on both sides oft he membrane eventually
    equal out (for everything that can get though the membrane
    that is).

    Got a reference?

    Arno, Nov 4, 2011
  19. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    Gerald Abrahamson wrote
    Juvenile antics on the floor cut no mustard around here, child.
    Pity about the wine and beer which freezes at
    only marginally lower temps than water, fool.

    Never had any of those freeze in my baggage either.
    Pity about the wine and beer, child.
    Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, child.
    Wota stunning line in rational argument you have there, child.
    Everyone can see for themselves that you are lying again, child.
    Why would it be replaced when the bag is filled with
    air, but not when its filled with dry nitrogen, child ?

    Have fun explaining the physics of that, child.
    Another howler. The bag just collapses, child.

    Even you should have noticed that balloons do that, child.
    Have fun explaining how they work fine when removed
    from the bag and installed in a PC, or housing, child.

    Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
    have never ever had a ****ing clue about anything at
    all, and why you got the bums rush from that operation
    you lied about being the savior of, child.

    Its completely trivial to prove that dry nitrogen in
    a plastic bag stays the way it always was and
    doesnt end up with a vacuum in the bag, child.

    And that might just explain why cameras and binoculars
    etc are routinely filled with dry nitrogen to stop them
    fogging up internally in very cold conditions, child.

    <reams of your lies flushed where they belong>
    Rod Speed, Nov 4, 2011
  20. Franc Zabkar

    Rod Speed Guest

    David Brown wrote
    Thats obvious.
    There is none on that howler.
    Thats obvious.
    Utterly mangled.
    That doesnt happen even if the nitrogen does diffuse out at a
    higher rate than air in the bag does, because even you should
    be able to grasp that the bag just collapses as the nitrogen diffuses
    out and so you get no reduction in pressure inside the bag.

    And you havent explained why the nitrogen would diffuse out of the
    bag any faster than nitrogen in a bag filled with air would anyway.
    So it wont get to 78% atmospheric pressure.
    Why should it 'leak' in when the pressure inside the
    bag has to be the same as the pressure outside it ?

    If you fill the bag with hydrogen instead, that does diffuse out of
    the bag faster than air would, just because its smaller molecules.
    But all that does is see the bag eventually deflate and you can
    see that happening with balloons filled with hydrogen or helium.
    Corse it does and even you should be able to say that.
    Corse it doesnt at any different rate than the nitrogen outside the bag does.
    Nope, you just mangled the physics utterly.
    Rod Speed, Nov 5, 2011
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